| More racism 21:46 - Dec 22 with 8135 views | saint22 |
Disgusting at spurs today
Pfa calling for a government investigation
Good luck getting Boris to look into that!
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| More racism (n/t) on 11:00 - Dec 23 with 777 views | Vagina_Dentata |
| More racism (n/t) on 10:18 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
You also managed to not include the ones where I said it was an issue, that those arrested should be dealt with, Funny that. [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 10:21]
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I do apologise- I also said up thread I don’t believe you’re a racist. I do strongly believe that your rhetoric of sticks and stones, how come there are black millionaires etc is passive apathy towards racism whatever your intentions and does enable others. |  |
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| More racism on 11:03 - Dec 23 with 770 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 10:33 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
You agree that there's a problem but you think its importance is overblown.
You offer no solutions of your own but mock those who try to do something about it.
Thanks for your help TCM in the historic fight against racism. Good to have you onboard. |
Why is it when presented with facts people lie and get upset?
I've offered solutions, who have I mocked? I've simply stated that in the grand scheme of things 1 or 2 people being knob heads in a crowd of 60,000 doesn't warranty the disproportionate about of publicity it gets. As I've already said if there were sections of crowd chanting racism then that is an entirely different matter. Sorry I don't agree with you that I should be absolutely outraged by the actions of 0.0001% of the football going population. | |
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| More racism on 11:04 - Dec 23 with 768 views | DorsetIan |
| More racism on 10:37 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
Unfortunately the ridiculous second half of your post ruins any sensible points you may be trying to make.
The UEFA approach would work for large sections of the crowd chanting racism, but it will only work if they then follow it up by identifying and banning those responsible and if the teams actually walk off, the England team didn't recently when subject to racism so it kinds of makes the process impotent.
But of course in England we are not talking about large groups of fans, we are talking about individuals making a gesture or noise and I've already made my view on how to deal with it several times on this thread. Stop giving it so much publicity, identify the person either by stewards and policing being vigilant or fans self policing and deal with them in the appropriate manner, not hard is it. |
The second half of my post was pretty much what you say about racism all the time. Only sounds ridiculous when you apply it to a real life situation.
You seem to be agreeing now that the EUFA approach is a good one but only once a minimum number of racists in the crowd has been reached.
'I'm sorry Rudiger, I know you heard monkey noises but it's only Simon from St Albans, he's always like this when he's had too many babychams. Just ignore him, the woman sitting next to him will sort him out.'
The bottom line is that the football authorities are trying to tackle racism. It's an imperfect science. It seems disproportionate when there are limited numbers of racists involved. But at least they are trying to do something about it and yet you are just moaning about it. Like you moan about any attempt by anyone to increase diversity or counter prejudice. | |
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| More racism on 11:08 - Dec 23 with 761 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 11:04 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
The second half of my post was pretty much what you say about racism all the time. Only sounds ridiculous when you apply it to a real life situation.
You seem to be agreeing now that the EUFA approach is a good one but only once a minimum number of racists in the crowd has been reached.
'I'm sorry Rudiger, I know you heard monkey noises but it's only Simon from St Albans, he's always like this when he's had too many babychams. Just ignore him, the woman sitting next to him will sort him out.'
The bottom line is that the football authorities are trying to tackle racism. It's an imperfect science. It seems disproportionate when there are limited numbers of racists involved. But at least they are trying to do something about it and yet you are just moaning about it. Like you moan about any attempt by anyone to increase diversity or counter prejudice. |
Really? Please show me where I've said racism should be ignored and the players who react to it are snowflakes? Or are you making things up again? [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 11:08]
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| More racism on 11:17 - Dec 23 with 748 views | DorsetIan |
| More racism on 11:08 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
Really? Please show me where I've said racism should be ignored and the players who react to it are snowflakes? Or are you making things up again? [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 11:08]
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That's the very clear implication of so much of what you write.
Are you saying now that the EUFA protocol SHOULD have been implemented yesterday? | |
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| More racism on 11:25 - Dec 23 with 740 views | Gennaro_Contaldo |
Maybe stop the money in the game and letting countries with racist and homophobic leanings have such a high profile events - that would be a start.
2 weeks ago, all the players had rainbow armbands and rainbow laces. Most people in this country are accepting and don't give a toss.
Then a week later they play a high-profile football match in a country where being homosexual is illegal and punishable by 7 years in prison? AND it's broadcast on the BBC.
It's all so hypocritical and ridiculous. How about the clubs boycott these places? THAT would send a message out. |  |
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| More racism on 11:41 - Dec 23 with 728 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 11:17 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
That's the very clear implication of so much of what you write.
Are you saying now that the EUFA protocol SHOULD have been implemented yesterday? |
You really are struggling to keep up aren't you. So let me spell it out to you so you don't have to invent scenarios in your head.
In cases of individuals in large crowds making racist gestures or abuse, they should be identified and dealt with, no publicity.
In cases where sections of the crowd make racist gestures or chant abuse then the UEFA protocol should be implemented and the incident given large scale publicity with the people involved also dealt with.
Now you can all go back to pretending im condoning racism and make things up. | |
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| More racism on 11:41 - Dec 23 with 727 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 11:25 - Dec 23 by Gennaro_Contaldo |
Maybe stop the money in the game and letting countries with racist and homophobic leanings have such a high profile events - that would be a start.
2 weeks ago, all the players had rainbow armbands and rainbow laces. Most people in this country are accepting and don't give a toss.
Then a week later they play a high-profile football match in a country where being homosexual is illegal and punishable by 7 years in prison? AND it's broadcast on the BBC.
It's all so hypocritical and ridiculous. How about the clubs boycott these places? THAT would send a message out. |
Spot on, the hypocrisy is incredible. | |
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| More racism on 11:57 - Dec 23 with 706 views | franniesTache |
Football isn't racist, but society has racists in it and some of them will go to football.
Pat is spot on with his assessment that England is a far less racist country than most in Europe, i've lived in other European countries and they've all had far more overt racism than here.
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though, and the fact that some black people are rich doesn't mean there isn't still racism (the same way there's every other form of bigotry).
If we're utterly truthful though we'll never get rid of it, all we'll ever do is stop people saying it in public spaces.
The one thing i do think is that it's becoming easier for people to talk openly in public in that way again, for one reason or another the shame of saying stupid sh*t seems to have been lifted so we're hearing these views again.
I'm not actually sure that throwing the book at people will make any difference either, as TCM says it just emboldens them because "they're being silenced", if we want to tackle it we need to make people ashamed to use this language again, and that means stopping giving a platform to out and out bigots like Katie Hopkins.
Also it's down to us, if you hear someone saying stupid sh*t you have you to call them out. A tannoy announcement does f*ck all, but your own fans telling you you're a tw*t does a lot. |  | | |
| More racism on 11:59 - Dec 23 with 701 views | 130yrs_and_one_Cup |
| More racism on 11:41 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
Spot on, the hypocrisy is incredible. |
I read an article in yesterday's Observer, it was about Muzit Ozil, and his tweets about the Uighurs and the 're-education camps'. Ozil also has 4 million or so followers on some Chinese Microblog account and has now had his account pulled in China and the Chinese government have made a statement that he has been deceived by fake news.
Arsenal's response was "we are apolitical, and Ozil's views are his own'
and yet, earlier in the week another Arsenal player has tweeted 'feckBoris', but surprisingly there has been no response from Arsenal. It seems that the Chinese Wonga is more important than over 1 million Uighurs being banged up for no good reason.
Hypocrisy? |  |
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| More racism on 12:08 - Dec 23 with 701 views | Ingskneeslide |
| More racism on 11:59 - Dec 23 by 130yrs_and_one_Cup |
I read an article in yesterday's Observer, it was about Muzit Ozil, and his tweets about the Uighurs and the 're-education camps'. Ozil also has 4 million or so followers on some Chinese Microblog account and has now had his account pulled in China and the Chinese government have made a statement that he has been deceived by fake news.
Arsenal's response was "we are apolitical, and Ozil's views are his own'
and yet, earlier in the week another Arsenal player has tweeted 'feckBoris', but surprisingly there has been no response from Arsenal. It seems that the Chinese Wonga is more important than over 1 million Uighurs being banged up for no good reason.
Hypocrisy? |
that’s the most insane whataboutery I’ve ever seen. Thank god you’re locked up | | | |
| More racism on 12:14 - Dec 23 with 690 views | 130yrs_and_one_Cup |
| More racism on 12:08 - Dec 23 by Ingskneeslide |
that’s the most insane whataboutery I’ve ever seen. Thank god you’re locked up |
Ozil has showed his solidarity for the muslim population being persecuted in absolutely huge numbers in China, and Arsenal have distanced themselves from his comments
A couple of guys chant some monkey noises in a PL game, and it's all over the news, and there is talk about players walking off the pitch, starting a new protocol etc.
If you can't see the connection, I can't help you. | |
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| More racism on 12:17 - Dec 23 with 687 views | DorsetIan |
| More racism on 11:41 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
You really are struggling to keep up aren't you. So let me spell it out to you so you don't have to invent scenarios in your head.
In cases of individuals in large crowds making racist gestures or abuse, they should be identified and dealt with, no publicity.
In cases where sections of the crowd make racist gestures or chant abuse then the UEFA protocol should be implemented and the incident given large scale publicity with the people involved also dealt with.
Now you can all go back to pretending im condoning racism and make things up. |
I'll stick by what I said earlier, thanks:
"You agree that there's a problem but you think its importance is overblown.
You offer no solutions of your own but mock those who try to do something about it."
This pretty much sums up your position.
Take yesterday, Rudiger heard racism from the crown and the EUFA protocol was adopted. That's a pretty clear and simple response and should be applauded. Not good enough for you though - not enough racists involved for the protocol. An overreaction. Gives too much publicity.
The problem is that if a player makes a complaint there are only two options. Either you respond immediately (which they did) or your ignore it. At least if the protocol is invoked everyone can see that it is being taken seriously, the player included. The position you advocate - letting the stewards or surrounding fans sort it out - has been the position for years and they are trying to do more now, which is great. | |
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| More racism on 13:13 - Dec 23 with 651 views | saint22 |
| More racism on 09:05 - Dec 23 by this_charming_man |
Not trying to justify it, just pointing a few facts and a bit of reality. It's funny how when presented with some facts people get all angry and say that those that do it try and justify it. |
There is NOTHING to be said that can defend racism in ANY form
so your protestations speak volumes | | | |
| More racism on 13:15 - Dec 23 with 643 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 13:13 - Dec 23 by saint22 |
There is NOTHING to be said that can defend racism in ANY form
so your protestations speak volumes |
Who has tried to defend it? | |
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| More racism on 13:15 - Dec 23 with 641 views | Saintsforeverj |
The point is, you will never stop certain human beings from being tw@ts. It's impossible. There will always be one or two. Everybody being perfect is never going yo work.
The other point is how to deal with those one or two idiots - well if they want to stop them, give them a hefty sentence without early release - problem solved. Then no more need for campaigns etc - just stamp it out without all the other stuff. But like I said earlier, where do we draw the line? Fat Spanish Waiter - is that ok? Shoot the pompey scum - inciting use of violence and a fire arm? Four eyes at the ref. Is it just racism that is a problem? What if you a are overweight or wear glasses? Might you be offended too? How far will we go? [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 13:25]
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| More racism on 13:30 - Dec 23 with 630 views | Saintsforeverj |
| More racism on 13:13 - Dec 23 by saint22 |
There is NOTHING to be said that can defend racism in ANY form
so your protestations speak volumes |
What do you think about Muslims in Birmingham trying to stop schools teaching about equality and same sex relationships?
What do you think when a Muslim says a homosexual should be punished? Is it racist to say that you don't like a Muslim for having that view?
Stopping all racism in all its forms is a little more complicated than you suggest. [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 13:32]
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| More racism on 13:40 - Dec 23 with 623 views | DorsetIan |
| More racism on 13:15 - Dec 23 by Saintsforeverj |
The point is, you will never stop certain human beings from being tw@ts. It's impossible. There will always be one or two. Everybody being perfect is never going yo work.
The other point is how to deal with those one or two idiots - well if they want to stop them, give them a hefty sentence without early release - problem solved. Then no more need for campaigns etc - just stamp it out without all the other stuff. But like I said earlier, where do we draw the line? Fat Spanish Waiter - is that ok? Shoot the pompey scum - inciting use of violence and a fire arm? Four eyes at the ref. Is it just racism that is a problem? What if you a are overweight or wear glasses? Might you be offended too? How far will we go? [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 13:25]
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Where to draw the line is all very interesting but a complete red herring here because no one is arguing that making monkey noises to black players is the right side of the line.
Thing about laws is they have to be applied universally. If we want to be able to walk off the pitch in Bulgaria, then we need to apply the same standards in the UK. Even in relation to one or two tw@ts. | |
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| More racism on 13:44 - Dec 23 with 619 views | Saintsforeverj |
| More racism on 13:40 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
Where to draw the line is all very interesting but a complete red herring here because no one is arguing that making monkey noises to black players is the right side of the line.
Thing about laws is they have to be applied universally. If we want to be able to walk off the pitch in Bulgaria, then we need to apply the same standards in the UK. Even in relation to one or two tw@ts. |
So just arrest the one or two idiots - front page of the newspaper the next day with the headline - Racist fan jailed for 20 years, never to be let out.
I bet there wouldn't be another incident again. Too much pussy footing around and that's why these people do it.
And where to draw the line is important - it's not just black people who might be offended by what fans chant or shout but there lies the problem. [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 13:55]
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| More racism on 13:44 - Dec 23 with 619 views | Ron11 |
| More racism on 11:59 - Dec 23 by 130yrs_and_one_Cup |
I read an article in yesterday's Observer, it was about Muzit Ozil, and his tweets about the Uighurs and the 're-education camps'. Ozil also has 4 million or so followers on some Chinese Microblog account and has now had his account pulled in China and the Chinese government have made a statement that he has been deceived by fake news.
Arsenal's response was "we are apolitical, and Ozil's views are his own'
and yet, earlier in the week another Arsenal player has tweeted 'feckBoris', but surprisingly there has been no response from Arsenal. It seems that the Chinese Wonga is more important than over 1 million Uighurs being banged up for no good reason.
Hypocrisy? |
Absolutely.
Like Corbyn tweeting best wishes for a recent Jewish religious event.
But condemn islamic terrorism? Nah. | | | |
| More racism on 13:59 - Dec 23 with 601 views | DorsetIan |
| More racism on 13:44 - Dec 23 by Saintsforeverj |
So just arrest the one or two idiots - front page of the newspaper the next day with the headline - Racist fan jailed for 20 years, never to be let out.
I bet there wouldn't be another incident again. Too much pussy footing around and that's why these people do it.
And where to draw the line is important - it's not just black people who might be offended by what fans chant or shout but there lies the problem. [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 13:55]
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The important change is to shift the focus to the players on the pitch. They hear the noises, they report it to the ref. They shouldn't have to identify the culprits, that's not their problem, they're trying to play football. The ref then invokes the protocol and things happen in terms of announcements etc.
There is nothing to stop anyone at the same time identifying the culprits to the stewards and for the stadium authorities to start looking at their videos but all that will take time. If they can identify who is was - and bearing in mind that you don't even need to move your mouth to make such noises - they can take action against the individuals but meanwhile action is already being taken which everyone in the stadium knows about.
I just don't see any problem with any of this. It's a really sensible idea and should simply be supported. | |
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| More racism on 14:08 - Dec 23 with 592 views | Saintsforeverj |
| More racism on 13:59 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
The important change is to shift the focus to the players on the pitch. They hear the noises, they report it to the ref. They shouldn't have to identify the culprits, that's not their problem, they're trying to play football. The ref then invokes the protocol and things happen in terms of announcements etc.
There is nothing to stop anyone at the same time identifying the culprits to the stewards and for the stadium authorities to start looking at their videos but all that will take time. If they can identify who is was - and bearing in mind that you don't even need to move your mouth to make such noises - they can take action against the individuals but meanwhile action is already being taken which everyone in the stadium knows about.
I just don't see any problem with any of this. It's a really sensible idea and should simply be supported. |
The problem is that stopping the game, the team walking off the pitch gives power to the "racist". It's attention, its fun, it's power. The point is, this approach is actually fuelling it. When we walked into Brighton ground on the day of stop homophobia, there were saints fans joking about it purely because the authorities highlighted it.
The "racist" knows they will have an effect on a PL player. Its worth doing it as the punishment is not worth the paper it's written on. Its like the child in school who knows that they can break the rules and enjoy watching the teacher squirm. All worth the fun and attention because the punishment was just a little talking to.
My view is punish the individual more harshly so that that the rest of the decent fans don't have to miss out on a match when the players walk off because of one idiot.
I bet this issue goes on and on and on and it keeps happening. You see if I'm not right. Some attention seeking idiot would love the power of ensuring that a PL teams leaves the field of play - what power! And are they even racist? They know that a monkey chant will give themsekves a hell of a lot of power. Some idiot somewhere will be clapping their hands excited to stop a PL match. I say report it, deal with the individual harshly and the message will get through. [Post edited 23 Dec 2019 14:26]
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| More racism on 14:10 - Dec 23 with 591 views | this_charming_man |
| More racism on 12:17 - Dec 23 by DorsetIan |
I'll stick by what I said earlier, thanks:
"You agree that there's a problem but you think its importance is overblown.
You offer no solutions of your own but mock those who try to do something about it."
This pretty much sums up your position.
Take yesterday, Rudiger heard racism from the crown and the EUFA protocol was adopted. That's a pretty clear and simple response and should be applauded. Not good enough for you though - not enough racists involved for the protocol. An overreaction. Gives too much publicity.
The problem is that if a player makes a complaint there are only two options. Either you respond immediately (which they did) or your ignore it. At least if the protocol is invoked everyone can see that it is being taken seriously, the player included. The position you advocate - letting the stewards or surrounding fans sort it out - has been the position for years and they are trying to do more now, which is great. |
Very simplistic view "Ian" of course there are more ways to react than to act now or not at all. | |
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| More racism on 14:34 - Dec 23 with 569 views | kingslandstand1 |
| More racism on 11:25 - Dec 23 by Gennaro_Contaldo |
Maybe stop the money in the game and letting countries with racist and homophobic leanings have such a high profile events - that would be a start.
2 weeks ago, all the players had rainbow armbands and rainbow laces. Most people in this country are accepting and don't give a toss.
Then a week later they play a high-profile football match in a country where being homosexual is illegal and punishable by 7 years in prison? AND it's broadcast on the BBC.
It's all so hypocritical and ridiculous. How about the clubs boycott these places? THAT would send a message out. |
Absolutely |  | | |
| More racism on 14:37 - Dec 23 with 565 views | Saintsforeverj |
Spot on. What's the point of rainbow laces, flags and campaigns only to televise a game in a country where homosexuality is illegal. That is why the campaigns aren't working. | |
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