| Cygnus 06:43 - Apr 10 with 2541 views | inthebox |
Response to Exercise Cygnus doesn't look too bright in retrospect. |  | | |  |
| Cygnus on 09:55 - Apr 10 with 1986 views | Ron11 |
And now that piece of shit Jeremy Hunt, who as the article rightly suggests, was cutting NHS funding and beds when he was health minister, is gobbing off about what to do and what not to do from the sidelines at every opportunity. | | | |
| Cygnus on 15:01 - Apr 10 with 1927 views | thissceptredsaint |
I'm afraid the conservatives voted against nurses pay rises, they cheered when the bill was defeated. They voted against raising the budget for this kind of equipment in the same period. All of us who voted conservative need to look at our responsibility in this, I am ashamed of myself. |  | | |
| Cygnus on 15:22 - Apr 10 with 1915 views | Occasional_Showers |
| Cygnus on 15:01 - Apr 10 by thissceptredsaint |
I'm afraid the conservatives voted against nurses pay rises, they cheered when the bill was defeated. They voted against raising the budget for this kind of equipment in the same period. All of us who voted conservative need to look at our responsibility in this, I am ashamed of myself. |
You’ve never voted Tory in your life Emily.  |  |
| |
| Cygnus on 19:35 - Apr 10 with 1865 views | GasGiant |
| Cygnus on 15:01 - Apr 10 by thissceptredsaint |
I'm afraid the conservatives voted against nurses pay rises, they cheered when the bill was defeated. They voted against raising the budget for this kind of equipment in the same period. All of us who voted conservative need to look at our responsibility in this, I am ashamed of myself. |
It seems that the vote for ending the Public Sector pay cap was actually a device to vote down the Queens Speech and force a confidence vote, and it was defeated because the Government needed to move forward with other commitments made in the speech. The Labour proposal was a simple removal of the cap which did not distinguish between those workers who perhaps deserved rises and all the public sector executives and senior managers who probably didn't. Political parties seem to play these games all the time to impress their own supporters. I'm not suggesting for a second that the Tories wouldn't engage in a bit of skullduggery when they were in opposition - but I wish the Corbynist fans on here would stop acting as if they were born yesterday, and acknowledge that politics is by its nature devious and far from the black and white that the silly accusations presented by Ron and co would assume? | | | |
| Cygnus on 22:24 - Apr 10 with 1833 views | Ron11 |
| Cygnus on 19:35 - Apr 10 by GasGiant |
It seems that the vote for ending the Public Sector pay cap was actually a device to vote down the Queens Speech and force a confidence vote, and it was defeated because the Government needed to move forward with other commitments made in the speech. The Labour proposal was a simple removal of the cap which did not distinguish between those workers who perhaps deserved rises and all the public sector executives and senior managers who probably didn't. Political parties seem to play these games all the time to impress their own supporters. I'm not suggesting for a second that the Tories wouldn't engage in a bit of skullduggery when they were in opposition - but I wish the Corbynist fans on here would stop acting as if they were born yesterday, and acknowledge that politics is by its nature devious and far from the black and white that the silly accusations presented by Ron and co would assume? |
Accusations?
Where? | | | |
| Cygnus on 23:18 - Apr 10 with 1814 views | GasGiant |
| Cygnus on 22:24 - Apr 10 by Ron11 |
Accusations?
Where? |
Well let's start with your inference that it is a good use of resources to have extra beds, doctors, and all the resources required to staff a working ward - all available and empty ready and waiting for an unspecified disaster such as a pandemic, but perhaps we should also have resources tailored to an astroid strike, or a tsunami or two A380s collinding over central London. An earthquake. All of the above...... The number of hospital beds in itself is not sufficient to tell a story. Yes the NHS needs to rehearse disasters just as Cygnus seemed to do, but preparation for that does not imply that we have to have all that resource ready and idle, hundreds of beds empty ready and waiting. The NHS needs to be responsive and flaexible to create that capacity quickly when needed. So to cite Hunt's record as hingeing on the number of beds he made available at non-crisis times is disingenuous. You accuse Hunt by inference Ron. | | | |
| Cygnus on 09:35 - Apr 11 with 1737 views | DorsetIan |
| Cygnus on 23:18 - Apr 10 by GasGiant |
Well let's start with your inference that it is a good use of resources to have extra beds, doctors, and all the resources required to staff a working ward - all available and empty ready and waiting for an unspecified disaster such as a pandemic, but perhaps we should also have resources tailored to an astroid strike, or a tsunami or two A380s collinding over central London. An earthquake. All of the above...... The number of hospital beds in itself is not sufficient to tell a story. Yes the NHS needs to rehearse disasters just as Cygnus seemed to do, but preparation for that does not imply that we have to have all that resource ready and idle, hundreds of beds empty ready and waiting. The NHS needs to be responsive and flaexible to create that capacity quickly when needed. So to cite Hunt's record as hingeing on the number of beds he made available at non-crisis times is disingenuous. You accuse Hunt by inference Ron. |
I agree that it would not be sensible to have thousands of empty beds and doctors waiting around for a pandemic but that doesn’t mean that you can’t prepare.
Would have thought that having a warehouse full of ventilators and ppe sitting there as an insurance policy against what happened might have been prudent planning. Seems a bit late in the day that it was a week or so in before we were urgently trying to find F1 teams to build ventilators and wondering whether we could 3D print ppe masks.
Doesn’t every major airport have its own fire station, which is hardly ever (hopefully never) used?
I don’t believe we should be criticising the govt for what they are now doing but it is surely fair to question why so little advance preparation - especially when they had run a simulation to learn lessons in advance. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Cygnus on 09:32 - Apr 12 with 1696 views | huelinsaint |
| Cygnus on 09:35 - Apr 11 by DorsetIan |
I agree that it would not be sensible to have thousands of empty beds and doctors waiting around for a pandemic but that doesn’t mean that you can’t prepare.
Would have thought that having a warehouse full of ventilators and ppe sitting there as an insurance policy against what happened might have been prudent planning. Seems a bit late in the day that it was a week or so in before we were urgently trying to find F1 teams to build ventilators and wondering whether we could 3D print ppe masks.
Doesn’t every major airport have its own fire station, which is hardly ever (hopefully never) used?
I don’t believe we should be criticising the govt for what they are now doing but it is surely fair to question why so little advance preparation - especially when they had run a simulation to learn lessons in advance. |
I believe we should be holding them to account because the press certainly dont.
What the government should have done
Locked down earlier.
Locked down harder.
Cancelled Cheltenham.
Stopped 3K athletico fans coming.
Joined the EU ventilator scheme.
Ordered PPE earlier.
Replied to offers of equipment | | | |
| Cygnus on 11:49 - Apr 12 with 1655 views | GasGiant |
| Cygnus on 09:32 - Apr 12 by huelinsaint |
I believe we should be holding them to account because the press certainly dont.
What the government should have done
Locked down earlier.
Locked down harder.
Cancelled Cheltenham.
Stopped 3K athletico fans coming.
Joined the EU ventilator scheme.
Ordered PPE earlier.
Replied to offers of equipment |
I completely agree that all those things would see us in a better place now had they been done two months ago. But to list them as though events over the subsequent days were absolutely predictable and inevitable is misleading. Creating a logistics plan out of nothing for a distribution that never existed in January is a mammoth task that only gets bigger the more you look into it. It is easy in a police state like China but in a democracy it is almost impossible. It's also easy to say now that the Government should not have listened to biologists, epidemiologists and other paid medical experts and instead listened to the simple message from the NHS about its capacity to copy with the herd immunity strategy, but would you have made that call when Covid-19 was a meaningless word and the only people who seemed to understand the data were all scientists? (Yes there were plenty of I-Told-You-So journalists but they are not held to account when their investigations turn out to be wrong, which they do) The Government in February were expecting to be running the reconstruction of a new economy and suddenly a problem loomed that at the time was "worst case" thought to be like Ebola. What events did we cancel for the Ebola crisis? If you drill into each of those things you list there is a story, and in each story there will be mistakes, but the mistakes are smaller, more numerous and more localised than this constant attempt to drag every minute problem right up the pyramid to the very top just to endlessly browbeat the Government. | | | |
| Cygnus on 13:09 - Apr 12 with 1635 views | inthebox |
| Cygnus on 11:49 - Apr 12 by GasGiant |
I completely agree that all those things would see us in a better place now had they been done two months ago. But to list them as though events over the subsequent days were absolutely predictable and inevitable is misleading. Creating a logistics plan out of nothing for a distribution that never existed in January is a mammoth task that only gets bigger the more you look into it. It is easy in a police state like China but in a democracy it is almost impossible. It's also easy to say now that the Government should not have listened to biologists, epidemiologists and other paid medical experts and instead listened to the simple message from the NHS about its capacity to copy with the herd immunity strategy, but would you have made that call when Covid-19 was a meaningless word and the only people who seemed to understand the data were all scientists? (Yes there were plenty of I-Told-You-So journalists but they are not held to account when their investigations turn out to be wrong, which they do) The Government in February were expecting to be running the reconstruction of a new economy and suddenly a problem loomed that at the time was "worst case" thought to be like Ebola. What events did we cancel for the Ebola crisis? If you drill into each of those things you list there is a story, and in each story there will be mistakes, but the mistakes are smaller, more numerous and more localised than this constant attempt to drag every minute problem right up the pyramid to the very top just to endlessly browbeat the Government. |
Anybody who was watching the lockdown blogs coming out of China knew something big was on the horizon. I t wouldn't of hurt to check our stocks of PPE back in November. This virus isn't Ebola which is more deadly but not so easy to catch. | | | |
| Cygnus on 13:34 - Apr 12 with 1613 views | inthebox |
I think that's half the problem, we have an islander mentality, with international travel we are vulnerable like everybody else | | | |
| Cygnus on 14:15 - Apr 12 with 1601 views | GasGiant |
| Cygnus on 13:09 - Apr 12 by inthebox |
Anybody who was watching the lockdown blogs coming out of China knew something big was on the horizon. I t wouldn't of hurt to check our stocks of PPE back in November. This virus isn't Ebola which is more deadly but not so easy to catch. |
Agree, but who knew that in November? Ebola was seen as perhaps the nastiest disease going until now and a template for future precautions. Nobody has time to monitor the billions and billions of pieces of contradictory tripe that flood the internet, so these things are always easy to find retrospectively but not in real time. Try this example - Where will the next fatal civilian plane crash occur, and what type of plane will it be? It will be easy to find evidence of poor inspections, badly trained staff, and metal fatigue after the thing has gone down, but try doing it now looking forward. I think you're right about the PPE - after all what was Cygnus for if not preparation? But I bet that the Cygnus findings and actions didn't creep much further than some vague NHS budgetary planning sessions with perhaps an action item to fund some PPE "sometime in the next financial period". I doubt it even got as far as the Minister of State unless a question was asked in the House about it. There is blame for complacency but let's check where it should go first. | | | |
| Cygnus on 15:18 - Apr 12 with 1567 views | 1885_SFC |
I think a closer analogy would be this:
There were attacks on the World Trade Towers before they were brought down. For that read SARS, Flu, etc. The Yanks knew another, even bigger attack was coming - and prepared as much as they could. The scale of the 9/11 attacks were of catastrophic proportions. For that read Covid-19.
I guess after all is said and done - it isn't easy pre-empting the numbers & scale of what is on the way - whether it's terrorism or pandemics. |  |
| |
| Cygnus on 15:18 - Apr 12 with 1566 views | DorsetIan |
What’s the norm after something like this in terms of a retrospective review of decision making? It took Chilcott to get to the bottom of everything Iraq related but even if we don’t want to apportion blame in relation to this , we all surely want to learn whatever lessons there are to be learnt.
I presume there will be a full review by the Health select committee if no one else but I don’t know. | |
| |
| Cygnus on 18:20 - Apr 12 with 1532 views | inthebox |
| Cygnus on 15:18 - Apr 12 by 1885_SFC |
I think a closer analogy would be this:
There were attacks on the World Trade Towers before they were brought down. For that read SARS, Flu, etc. The Yanks knew another, even bigger attack was coming - and prepared as much as they could. The scale of the 9/11 attacks were of catastrophic proportions. For that read Covid-19.
I guess after all is said and done - it isn't easy pre-empting the numbers & scale of what is on the way - whether it's terrorism or pandemics. |
As we all know terrorist are invariably one step a head of counter terrorist measures, a virus doesn't organise and scheme an attack, it's opportunistic if a door is left open, i.e. your mouth, nose or eyes on not covered then it will come in. | | | |
| Cygnus on 09:26 - Apr 13 with 1462 views | huelinsaint |
| Cygnus on 11:49 - Apr 12 by GasGiant |
I completely agree that all those things would see us in a better place now had they been done two months ago. But to list them as though events over the subsequent days were absolutely predictable and inevitable is misleading. Creating a logistics plan out of nothing for a distribution that never existed in January is a mammoth task that only gets bigger the more you look into it. It is easy in a police state like China but in a democracy it is almost impossible. It's also easy to say now that the Government should not have listened to biologists, epidemiologists and other paid medical experts and instead listened to the simple message from the NHS about its capacity to copy with the herd immunity strategy, but would you have made that call when Covid-19 was a meaningless word and the only people who seemed to understand the data were all scientists? (Yes there were plenty of I-Told-You-So journalists but they are not held to account when their investigations turn out to be wrong, which they do) The Government in February were expecting to be running the reconstruction of a new economy and suddenly a problem loomed that at the time was "worst case" thought to be like Ebola. What events did we cancel for the Ebola crisis? If you drill into each of those things you list there is a story, and in each story there will be mistakes, but the mistakes are smaller, more numerous and more localised than this constant attempt to drag every minute problem right up the pyramid to the very top just to endlessly browbeat the Government. |
The NHS did operation Cygnus in 2016 ,found to be seriously wanting in the event of a pandemic,not acted upon ,thought to be too expensive,Tory voters have to accept some responsibility here,they voted this party into government who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.Also they have to accept that the government is going to be criticised when it doesn't step up to the plate | | | |
| Cygnus on 09:39 - Apr 13 with 1457 views | inthebox |
| Cygnus on 15:18 - Apr 12 by DorsetIan |
What’s the norm after something like this in terms of a retrospective review of decision making? It took Chilcott to get to the bottom of everything Iraq related but even if we don’t want to apportion blame in relation to this , we all surely want to learn whatever lessons there are to be learnt.
I presume there will be a full review by the Health select committee if no one else but I don’t know. |
The Health select committee, oh yes who heads that, Hunt Health Secretary 2012-2018 | | | |
| Cygnus on 09:49 - Apr 13 with 1448 views | Olliekhent |
| Cygnus on 09:26 - Apr 13 by huelinsaint |
The NHS did operation Cygnus in 2016 ,found to be seriously wanting in the event of a pandemic,not acted upon ,thought to be too expensive,Tory voters have to accept some responsibility here,they voted this party into government who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.Also they have to accept that the government is going to be criticised when it doesn't step up to the plate |
How do you figure Tory voters have to accept responsibility, being that there was no alternative to vote for? Do you know for a fact that Labour or Libs would have done better? For a fact?
Also, may I ask, when you were at school, which government was in power? |  |
| The only bad air around here is you guys farting around. |
| |
| Cygnus on 10:01 - Apr 13 with 1435 views | Mr_Happy |
The British media spent a decade desperately trying to keep the Tories in power.
They bought and paid for this genocidal clown show, they’re as culpable as anyone, so there’s no way in hell they’ll question it. |  |
| |
| Cygnus on 10:02 - Apr 13 with 1432 views | Ron11 |
| Cygnus on 23:18 - Apr 10 by GasGiant |
Well let's start with your inference that it is a good use of resources to have extra beds, doctors, and all the resources required to staff a working ward - all available and empty ready and waiting for an unspecified disaster such as a pandemic, but perhaps we should also have resources tailored to an astroid strike, or a tsunami or two A380s collinding over central London. An earthquake. All of the above...... The number of hospital beds in itself is not sufficient to tell a story. Yes the NHS needs to rehearse disasters just as Cygnus seemed to do, but preparation for that does not imply that we have to have all that resource ready and idle, hundreds of beds empty ready and waiting. The NHS needs to be responsive and flaexible to create that capacity quickly when needed. So to cite Hunt's record as hingeing on the number of beds he made available at non-crisis times is disingenuous. You accuse Hunt by inference Ron. |
I don't think I was inferring or implying that it it would be economically prudent to over populate the NHS with doctors, nurses and other staff and 'resources'.
Hunt's inability to listen and learn and his superior attitude when he was health minister was one of the reasons why he was highly disliked at most levels - along with the fact that he did nothing to curb and reduce the massive legion of 'managers' in the NHS a lot of whom are not medically trained, but good at manipulating targets while taking large salaries at the same time. These are the same people who are responsible for the ongoing fiasco regarding personal protective equipment for for front line nurses and doctors.
Hunt did nothing to enhance or improve the NHS, especially for it's staff, and he certainly didn't do anything improve it's flexibility or the general demeanour of anyone working within it. I made no inference on the number of beds he made available-but I do wish he would keep his big mouth shut when the front line of the NHS are under extreme pressure, and the last thing they need to have is advice from someone they despise. Apart from the legion of managers, of course. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
