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Infection and hospital rates climbing rapidly. Death rates projected at 200 per day. Nearly 4m people at serious risk. New information coming out about the problems Covid cause the body if it doesn’t kill you. People laid up for the best part of a year with serious complications. Concern over the AstraZenica vaccine. Is it really wise to lift most of the restrictions on Monday? We have been told that we aren’t going back into another lockdown situation no matter what, but Whitty seems to think it might have to be on the cards.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2021 9:29]
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Third Covid Wave on 17:32 - Sep 16 with 1142 views
Immediate denial stance..that has been your position throughout..you are actually scared of the reality that is unfolding in plain sight..if burying your head in the sand is your way of dealing with it then fair play...sadly the situation is nothing like you wish or hope for..
I do find your lack of comment to the horrendous situation of children being subjected to this unnecessary vaccine rather odious..your silence on this point speaks volumes.
My 'stance' is towards you, not the story. You're not honest. You've just pushing your crazy agenda. You lost the right to be listened to.
And leave it with your crocodile tears about children. You're not bothered about anyone's health. You wouldn't be encouraging people to distrust the evidently successful vaccination program, if you were.
Spain Inmaculada Castelló of Pinsent Masons in Madrid said: “Despite European governments rethinking their Covid-19 strategies after the fast-spreading Delta variant´s appearance, Spain remains one of the developed countries where citizens have the most confidence in coronavirus vaccines — this according to a study carried out by Imperial College London based on surveys conducted among more than 68,000 people in 15 countries. At the time of writing, 78% of Spanish citizens, and more than 90% of healthcare workers, have said that they have confidence in the coronavirus vaccines.
You need to up your game mate , the Spanish looks like they have totally fallen for lies. Perhaps change tact from here to matters closer to your home.
Israel today..80 6% double vaccinated 8292 new cases..so if we do a comparison to uk by population..then that's 62000 plus cases a day or 428000 a week in a heavily vaccinated country..not a shining beacon of hope or vaccine confidence
Come March as I've said to Berber we'll have a good look at how the vaccine has coped the winter.
My 'stance' is towards you, not the story. You're not honest. You've just pushing your crazy agenda. You lost the right to be listened to.
And leave it with your crocodile tears about children. You're not bothered about anyone's health. You wouldn't be encouraging people to distrust the evidently successful vaccination program, if you were.
Spain Inmaculada Castelló of Pinsent Masons in Madrid said: “Despite European governments rethinking their Covid-19 strategies after the fast-spreading Delta variant´s appearance, Spain remains one of the developed countries where citizens have the most confidence in coronavirus vaccines — this according to a study carried out by Imperial College London based on surveys conducted among more than 68,000 people in 15 countries. At the time of writing, 78% of Spanish citizens, and more than 90% of healthcare workers, have said that they have confidence in the coronavirus vaccines.
You need to up your game mate , the Spanish looks like they have totally fallen for lies. Perhaps change tact from here to matters closer to your home.
The UK will incur 428000 cases a week if we mirror the shining light of israels covid-19 vaccine rollout..unprecedented..thats on the horizon..source Israel today .yep vaccine confidence is somewhat over enthusiastic currently that would suggest.
The UK will incur 428000 cases a week if we mirror the shining light of israels covid-19 vaccine rollout..unprecedented..thats on the horizon..source Israel today .yep vaccine confidence is somewhat over enthusiastic currently that would suggest.
My 'stance' is towards you, not the story. You're not honest. You've just pushing your crazy agenda. You lost the right to be listened to.
And leave it with your crocodile tears about children. You're not bothered about anyone's health. You wouldn't be encouraging people to distrust the evidently successful vaccination program, if you were.
Your wasting your time and giving these idiots a platform. Just ignore them. I hope no one gets ill but these selfish pricks will be calling for the NHS to treat them when they do. And when the airlines introduce evidence of being double jabbed before being allowed to fly I bet they will be first in line just so they can go on holiday.
“Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously'
Your wasting your time and giving these idiots a platform. Just ignore them. I hope no one gets ill but these selfish pricks will be calling for the NHS to treat them when they do. And when the airlines introduce evidence of being double jabbed before being allowed to fly I bet they will be first in line just so they can go on holiday.
It's a tricky one Heisenberg.
I sort of feel it's better to simply call them out personally for what they are, rather than to ignore them completely and let their lies stand.
Your wasting your time and giving these idiots a platform. Just ignore them. I hope no one gets ill but these selfish pricks will be calling for the NHS to treat them when they do. And when the airlines introduce evidence of being double jabbed before being allowed to fly I bet they will be first in line just so they can go on holiday.
You say selfish, like the very same idiots wanting nurses and NHS staff sacked for not taking the vaccine..clap then slap those brave front line workers...
You are all in an experiment, that was your choice unless of course you felt coerced through peer pressure?
The curren situation in Israel looks alarming and if that occurs here then we are actually worse off than pre vaccination 12 months ago. But don't let statistics against your hopes and blind faith change that. .428000 cases a week ..thats what is highly likely if the UK mirrors the sad situation in Israel.
So maybe step off the abuse peddle and accept these are unprecedented times..my view is that I don't trust this gene therapy vaccine .that's my personal view and opinion.
When debate or freedom of choice is subdued then society is broken.
You say selfish, like the very same idiots wanting nurses and NHS staff sacked for not taking the vaccine..clap then slap those brave front line workers...
You are all in an experiment, that was your choice unless of course you felt coerced through peer pressure?
The curren situation in Israel looks alarming and if that occurs here then we are actually worse off than pre vaccination 12 months ago. But don't let statistics against your hopes and blind faith change that. .428000 cases a week ..thats what is highly likely if the UK mirrors the sad situation in Israel.
So maybe step off the abuse peddle and accept these are unprecedented times..my view is that I don't trust this gene therapy vaccine .that's my personal view and opinion.
When debate or freedom of choice is subdued then society is broken.
Have a lovely evening H.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2021 20:27]
As Corporal Jones would say; "They don't like it up 'em"
Ian seems fragile, I think it's best he takes a break. Call me a softie and despite him calling me an idiot most days, I can't help but like him.
People like Ian are so invested, it is hard for them to even hear another opinion.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
1
Third Covid Wave on 20:26 - Sep 16 with 1043 views
Child vaccinations deemed not of great benefit..JVCI
Nadhim zahawi openly telling children they can overule their parents and accept a jab..these same children that aren't allowed paracetamol without prior parental consent..unethical in any guise...I see he's now been promoted to education..the wolf is now in the sheep pen...another coincidence
26% Of NHS staff not vaccinated ....even higher figures in residential care.
Adverse effect on other people..you walk around spreading the same virus..the great vaccinated still fill the hospital beds.see you are as much of a problem as an unvaccinated person..
See its all well and good one moment showing appreciation of NHS staff , but a few short months later you want these very same staff dismissed for not being vaccinated...these very same people that see first hand what's happening..not friends or family of..but eyewitnesses to what's occurring..they don't want that jab....they should be free to exercise their body autonomy..or is that not allowed anymore.
Blind faith and coercion is your position, well as you posted yesterday..if I'm not dead by march we'll reaccess the situation..i look forward to that and hope you can too.
At least we've garnered that you don't care if children are subjected to a vaccine that could fo far more harm..thats rather disappointing.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2021 15:08]
Not of great benefit based purely on medical grounds, as widely reported, but taking their mental wellbeing and educational needs into account, a big benefit to normalising their education process.
I'll grant you that Zahawi telling kids they can make up their own minds is not the direction I would I have gone. But that does not make the whole approach unethical. That would be like me saying if you cannot present logical argument, you should not have a voice.
Of course, if you think they should still be subject to isolation and lockdowns, where the poorer kids suffer disproportionately, just say so. Or do you think we should just let things rip? Infections amongst the unvaccinated will still grow exponentially. That is not the case with the vaccinated.
26% of healthcare workers unvaccinated is just that, a minority, 74%, nearly 3 times as many are vaccinated.
The majority of hospitalisations are from the unvaccinated group, I have put up links to the stats for this. It can hardly be a matter for debate that 15-20% of the population filling 50-75% of hospitalisations.
Vaccinated people are NOT as much of a problem as unvaccinated, as explained previously, with the statistics. Anyone with an open mind and able to use the internet can discover this, it has been reported in multiple outlets with data from various sources. vaccinated people are less than half as likely to catch the virus, so by definition, on a like for like basis, are much less of a risk from "walking around".
Regarding NHS staff, you say "you". Some people, who may have different but equally odd views. The vast majority do not believe this, else there would be an overwhelming outcry on forums and in the media. This is not the case.
Blind faith is MY position? I would argue that making decisions based on a misrepresentation of comparative statistics, or no evident data at all is blind faith. I don't see anything compelling in anything that you or Jellybaby have posted that would constiture mature assessment of all of the known information. You both appear to want to stick to the line, everyone else are being misled and are behaving like sheep. We the ones "in the know" are right.
I have never espoused the vaccination of children is the correct route. Others have, not the majority, but again, both you and Jellybaby seem to group anyone that doesn't agree with you into the "enemy" camp.
The very fact that this debate has gone on page after page demonstrates quite clearly that the people that don't agree with you are quite prepared for debate to take place. Nobody has called for your posts to be deleted, or the two of you banned. You both seem to be incapable of taking a rounded mature approach to informed debate. That is the real pity.
Not of great benefit based purely on medical grounds, as widely reported, but taking their mental wellbeing and educational needs into account, a big benefit to normalising their education process.
I'll grant you that Zahawi telling kids they can make up their own minds is not the direction I would I have gone. But that does not make the whole approach unethical. That would be like me saying if you cannot present logical argument, you should not have a voice.
Of course, if you think they should still be subject to isolation and lockdowns, where the poorer kids suffer disproportionately, just say so. Or do you think we should just let things rip? Infections amongst the unvaccinated will still grow exponentially. That is not the case with the vaccinated.
26% of healthcare workers unvaccinated is just that, a minority, 74%, nearly 3 times as many are vaccinated.
The majority of hospitalisations are from the unvaccinated group, I have put up links to the stats for this. It can hardly be a matter for debate that 15-20% of the population filling 50-75% of hospitalisations.
Vaccinated people are NOT as much of a problem as unvaccinated, as explained previously, with the statistics. Anyone with an open mind and able to use the internet can discover this, it has been reported in multiple outlets with data from various sources. vaccinated people are less than half as likely to catch the virus, so by definition, on a like for like basis, are much less of a risk from "walking around".
Regarding NHS staff, you say "you". Some people, who may have different but equally odd views. The vast majority do not believe this, else there would be an overwhelming outcry on forums and in the media. This is not the case.
Blind faith is MY position? I would argue that making decisions based on a misrepresentation of comparative statistics, or no evident data at all is blind faith. I don't see anything compelling in anything that you or Jellybaby have posted that would constiture mature assessment of all of the known information. You both appear to want to stick to the line, everyone else are being misled and are behaving like sheep. We the ones "in the know" are right.
I have never espoused the vaccination of children is the correct route. Others have, not the majority, but again, both you and Jellybaby seem to group anyone that doesn't agree with you into the "enemy" camp.
The very fact that this debate has gone on page after page demonstrates quite clearly that the people that don't agree with you are quite prepared for debate to take place. Nobody has called for your posts to be deleted, or the two of you banned. You both seem to be incapable of taking a rounded mature approach to informed debate. That is the real pity.
Good morning Berber, a great reply.
Firstly you did indeed post an NHS bed occupancy statement earlier in this thread..that actually showed that 70% of those hospitalised in the over 50's with covid-19 were either single or double jabbed.
Children..I and obviously the JCVI feel that vaccination in under 16's isn't of benefit and the health implications of vaccine v non aren't enough to advise a blanket roll out.
Nadhim zahawi's comments lay in the realm of unethical as he is directly ignoring the body that makes those important decisions and removing a parents rights to protect their own children.
Moving forward regards bed occupancy, you state that it will be predominantly unvaccinated..however just looking at the heavily vaccinated 80.6% in Israel this doesn't marry up..current bed occupancy due to covid there shows 6/10 are double and triple jabbed..so that sort of invalidates your previous statement that its the unvaccinated being the majority of bed occupancy..we are approximately 2/3 months behind them in regards of vaccination roll out time wise.
I know you don't like the Swedish approach to the outbreak but maybe cast an eye over the vast differences between Israel and Sweden, very similar population sizes but vastly different outcomes with totally different approaches.
Thank you for a decent response..fresh air indeed.
Not of great benefit based purely on medical grounds, as widely reported, but taking their mental wellbeing and educational needs into account, a big benefit to normalising their education process.
I'll grant you that Zahawi telling kids they can make up their own minds is not the direction I would I have gone. But that does not make the whole approach unethical. That would be like me saying if you cannot present logical argument, you should not have a voice.
Of course, if you think they should still be subject to isolation and lockdowns, where the poorer kids suffer disproportionately, just say so. Or do you think we should just let things rip? Infections amongst the unvaccinated will still grow exponentially. That is not the case with the vaccinated.
26% of healthcare workers unvaccinated is just that, a minority, 74%, nearly 3 times as many are vaccinated.
The majority of hospitalisations are from the unvaccinated group, I have put up links to the stats for this. It can hardly be a matter for debate that 15-20% of the population filling 50-75% of hospitalisations.
Vaccinated people are NOT as much of a problem as unvaccinated, as explained previously, with the statistics. Anyone with an open mind and able to use the internet can discover this, it has been reported in multiple outlets with data from various sources. vaccinated people are less than half as likely to catch the virus, so by definition, on a like for like basis, are much less of a risk from "walking around".
Regarding NHS staff, you say "you". Some people, who may have different but equally odd views. The vast majority do not believe this, else there would be an overwhelming outcry on forums and in the media. This is not the case.
Blind faith is MY position? I would argue that making decisions based on a misrepresentation of comparative statistics, or no evident data at all is blind faith. I don't see anything compelling in anything that you or Jellybaby have posted that would constiture mature assessment of all of the known information. You both appear to want to stick to the line, everyone else are being misled and are behaving like sheep. We the ones "in the know" are right.
I have never espoused the vaccination of children is the correct route. Others have, not the majority, but again, both you and Jellybaby seem to group anyone that doesn't agree with you into the "enemy" camp.
The very fact that this debate has gone on page after page demonstrates quite clearly that the people that don't agree with you are quite prepared for debate to take place. Nobody has called for your posts to be deleted, or the two of you banned. You both seem to be incapable of taking a rounded mature approach to informed debate. That is the real pity.
I haven't called for either of them to be banned or for their posts to be deleted, but I no longer believe that anyone should 'debate' with them.
For there to be a serious debate all parties must have an open minded commitment to seeking the truth about the subject under debate. Here the debate is about public health and neither 68 nor Jelly has any interest in that.
This long thread has been extremely illuminating for me. I had previously struggled to understand the mindsets of these people but both of them, but particularly Jelly, have set this out explicitly. They are completely obsessed with the idea of 'freedom' and the thought that it is under threat from the hidden forces of totalitarianism. Jelly has even explained that this is also where the link to climate change denial comes in - a fear about freedom to travel.
When you listen to the QAnon people, or the Capitol rioters, it's the same story - 'they' are trying to take our freedoms away.
And it's this honest belief in that mad conspiracy which causes them to think that that they are 'in the know' and the rest of us are sheep.
But, again as this thread demonstrates. it also means that they are simply not interested in any 'debate' - they are only interested in putting forward statements which support them in this political narrative. And which is why they are prepared to be part of this pernicious global anti-vax conspiracy, which is very clearly costing the lives of so many suggestible but nevertheless innocent people.
I had hoped that this thread was coming to an end and I am only replying to you, to offer this suggestion as why, no, 68 and Jelly have ruled themselves out of any discussion about public health.
I haven't called for either of them to be banned or for their posts to be deleted, but I no longer believe that anyone should 'debate' with them.
For there to be a serious debate all parties must have an open minded commitment to seeking the truth about the subject under debate. Here the debate is about public health and neither 68 nor Jelly has any interest in that.
This long thread has been extremely illuminating for me. I had previously struggled to understand the mindsets of these people but both of them, but particularly Jelly, have set this out explicitly. They are completely obsessed with the idea of 'freedom' and the thought that it is under threat from the hidden forces of totalitarianism. Jelly has even explained that this is also where the link to climate change denial comes in - a fear about freedom to travel.
When you listen to the QAnon people, or the Capitol rioters, it's the same story - 'they' are trying to take our freedoms away.
And it's this honest belief in that mad conspiracy which causes them to think that that they are 'in the know' and the rest of us are sheep.
But, again as this thread demonstrates. it also means that they are simply not interested in any 'debate' - they are only interested in putting forward statements which support them in this political narrative. And which is why they are prepared to be part of this pernicious global anti-vax conspiracy, which is very clearly costing the lives of so many suggestible but nevertheless innocent people.
I had hoped that this thread was coming to an end and I am only replying to you, to offer this suggestion as why, no, 68 and Jelly have ruled themselves out of any discussion about public health.
Yet more dribble, do you close your eyes and stamp your feet when dinner isn't ready on time !!..if it makes you feel better Ian just report me and ask for me to be banned as you seem to be trying to insinuate..
Yet more dribble, do you close your eyes and stamp your feet when dinner isn't ready on time !!..if it makes you feel better Ian just report me and ask for me to be banned as you seem to be trying to insinuate..
“Dribble” is a very subjective concept and I am sure you understand that many people will read your ill informed posts and think the same. As Ian says, the sad thing about you and people like you is that it feeds into some people’s paranoia and some of those unfortunates are now dead. We can argue about the PM and government all day long with the only outcome being that some people might get bored or insulted, but they won’t end up dead or seriously ill as a result. I doubt if there any are anti vaxxers out there glad they didn’t have the jabs when they take their final breath. There are plenty of ways of controlling the population that do not involve killing large numbers or screwing the economy. If you are right in your conspiracy theories this has to be one of the most inept, hamfisted attemp at population control ever. Yes of cause some people will look to capitalise on the pandemic. That is what business people do and why the Tories have such a heartless reputation. You only have to look at the Black Market here during WW2, smuggling in the 18thc or prohibition in the US to see that some people will always try to make money when the opportunities arise, no matter how grim. To try and turn this into some kind of global conspiracy is beyond bizarre and your patronising posts just make you look more like a gullible fool than someone who sees the light whereas the rest of us don’t.
“Dribble” is a very subjective concept and I am sure you understand that many people will read your ill informed posts and think the same. As Ian says, the sad thing about you and people like you is that it feeds into some people’s paranoia and some of those unfortunates are now dead. We can argue about the PM and government all day long with the only outcome being that some people might get bored or insulted, but they won’t end up dead or seriously ill as a result. I doubt if there any are anti vaxxers out there glad they didn’t have the jabs when they take their final breath. There are plenty of ways of controlling the population that do not involve killing large numbers or screwing the economy. If you are right in your conspiracy theories this has to be one of the most inept, hamfisted attemp at population control ever. Yes of cause some people will look to capitalise on the pandemic. That is what business people do and why the Tories have such a heartless reputation. You only have to look at the Black Market here during WW2, smuggling in the 18thc or prohibition in the US to see that some people will always try to make money when the opportunities arise, no matter how grim. To try and turn this into some kind of global conspiracy is beyond bizarre and your patronising posts just make you look more like a gullible fool than someone who sees the light whereas the rest of us don’t.
Now that's much better Sogs, you imply that I and people like me are killing people, I'd say that the unvaccinated staff and residential care workers in their hundreds of thousands would be more of a target for that rather than an anonymous poster on a forum with a hundred or so posters of which about 40 or so post regularly.
I really do hope that my viewpoint is in time found to be very wide of the mark.
I don't believe in multiple coincidences that result in speculation being stifled or even ridiculed. When we start to ignore such things we lose valid scepticism of irregularities.
We are currently in a situation that ..
The protected need to be protected from the unprotected by forcing the unprotected to use the protection that didn't protect the protected
I am constantly castigated on here for not caring about public health, which is a misrepresentation, I am more concerned about vaccine injury and death amongst younger people specifically children though than the very old being knocked off their perch by a respiratory illness, however sad that may be, that is a natural outcome.
Finally people are talking about the dangers of this experimental vaccine. I know that upsets some of you, because you have taken it, but it is still a subject that needs urgent consideration in the light of the roll out to children and booster jabs.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
Oh how sad that would be, I'm sure I'll get by though Bison.
Funny enough mate I agree with you on a lot of stuff , when you compare the figures I agree there has been a big over reaction to the pandemic but what I dont agree with you is that its a big conspiracy. The biggest problem is the public...... they react and demand a solution from the the government and the government react to try and appease the majority.
The Delta variant is different to the ones we have seen before and I believe its true the measures we are using are overkill as the previous measures just dont have the same affect on this one.
Passports are pointless now , they can be faked , anything you show on a phone can be faked.
This disease is still a killer especially this Delta and its not a flu in my opinion , its much more deadlier. But to single out individuals is probably wrong now as I agree with the studies when they say viral loads between the vaccinated and un-vaccinated are similar if you do catch it. I agree a naturally caught COVID gives a better immunity than a vaccinated immunity. But that does not mean vaccines are not saving lives.
So in my opinion it comes down to personal responsibility , if you re 'at risk' you manage your life to that effect , don't put yourself at further risk , its your life after all , preserve it as you see fit.
If you consider yourself not at so much risk then you should be able to more or less live your life as pre 2020 levels. The odd shop saying you must wear a mask , respect that and dont make a point about it or dont shop there.
So I dont think you are a crazy 68 ( I think Jelly is a bit like Pluto...... far out there ) , but I just dont buy into this new world order , control the masses theories. I would say its more govt's being reactive to the general thoughts of the population , and bearing in mind its the older ( more at risk ) population who shouts loudest that would be my explanation to the sometimes draconian policies we are seeing.
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