| People without masks in supermarkets... 14:20 - Jul 24 with 5823 views | DorsetIan |
I’d say there were about 300 people in Morrisons this morning, and I counted about 10 not wearing masks.
It’s heartening to see most people are still looking out for each other, but the interesting thing about the 10 is how they are now deliberately identifying themselves as different - Independent free thinkers, more informed about masks and viruses (and probably vaccines) than the other 290 sheep like me in there.
I was watching them. Some looked shifty. Some looked defiant. I’m sure a lot of people were judging them. I know I was.
I have heard of some people being told by the unmasked that we don’t need to wear masks any more. I’m looking forward to somebody making a comment like that to me.
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:15 - Jul 25 with 859 views | JaySaint |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 15:35 - Jul 25 by saint22 |
For once you actually make an interesting point, smokers should pay for treatments related to their habit
And fat people should get taxed more, why should I pay the same on an airline for myself and baggage for some overweight over eater twice my size to pay the same, burn more fuel you pay more - weigh baggage and pax I say |
what about sterilisation for those with a criminal record? | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:34 - Jul 25 with 842 views | Bison |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:15 - Jul 25 by JaySaint |
what about sterilisation for those with a criminal record? |
Free to good home , Barry Manilows Bermuda Triangle , only apply if you have had the snip. |  |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:44 - Jul 25 with 824 views | Jellybaby |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 11:29 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
The thing you don't seem to understand Jelly is that people are exercising their freedom.
I am exercising my freedom to wear a mask because I want to protect my fellow citizens from catching anything from me.
All morality is based on the exercise of free choice, and there is a pretty good argument that it would be morally repugnant to expose others to disease simply to save myself the hassle of wearing a paper mask while I do my shopping. Like refusing to wade into a shallow pond to save a drowning child to avoid getting my shoes wet. |
I do understand Ian. Freedom works both ways. If you want to triple mask or wear a hazmat suit while shopping that is your choice and I won't look down my nose at you. Equally if I choose not to wear a mask, as a sign that we should not live in a state of fear forever more and to encourage others to break free from that bond of fear then that should be okay with you Maskateers.
You (along with many) clearly value safety over freedom and I am not advocating recklessness, but where do you stop with this? Are you selfish for driving a car - 27 thousand road deaths each year in the UK, not to mention the pollution, should we just not drive and stay inside our houses where we can not harm others?
If you really believe that the unmasked are all immoral and would not save drowning children, then the propaganda machine has fully worked on you, much as the anti Semitism propaganda worked in Nazi Germany.
Before you turn on your fellow man for wanting bodily autonomy, just remember the nauseating photos of the G7 summit, where the elites were all hobnobbing maskless, while the servants were all fully masked up, like some obnoxious scene from racist America, pre civil rights movement - a class divide. We both want the same thing I think - a return to normality, I'm not convinced that is true of the Elites | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:49 - Jul 25 with 815 views | kernow |
Never wear a mask, full face snood for me.
Loving my freedom to blend in . | | | |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:17 - Jul 25 with 792 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 17:44 - Jul 25 by Jellybaby |
I do understand Ian. Freedom works both ways. If you want to triple mask or wear a hazmat suit while shopping that is your choice and I won't look down my nose at you. Equally if I choose not to wear a mask, as a sign that we should not live in a state of fear forever more and to encourage others to break free from that bond of fear then that should be okay with you Maskateers.
You (along with many) clearly value safety over freedom and I am not advocating recklessness, but where do you stop with this? Are you selfish for driving a car - 27 thousand road deaths each year in the UK, not to mention the pollution, should we just not drive and stay inside our houses where we can not harm others?
If you really believe that the unmasked are all immoral and would not save drowning children, then the propaganda machine has fully worked on you, much as the anti Semitism propaganda worked in Nazi Germany.
Before you turn on your fellow man for wanting bodily autonomy, just remember the nauseating photos of the G7 summit, where the elites were all hobnobbing maskless, while the servants were all fully masked up, like some obnoxious scene from racist America, pre civil rights movement - a class divide. We both want the same thing I think - a return to normality, I'm not convinced that is true of the Elites |
I'm not saying that they unmasked wouldn't save a drowning child. Of course they would, because everyone knows that not doing so to save your shoes would be horrendous.
What I am saying is that not wearing a mask is not dissimilar and the point you are completely missing - deliberately or otherwise - is that wearing a mask involves the person wearing it in almost no 'cost'. Certainly no cost worth worrying about. Certainly a lot less 'cost' than ruining a good pair of shoes.
Can I just check a point with you? Do you even acknowledge that by not wearing a mask, you are potentially putting others at risk of catching any Covid that you unknowingly have? | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:18 - Jul 25 with 788 views | JaySaint |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:17 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
I'm not saying that they unmasked wouldn't save a drowning child. Of course they would, because everyone knows that not doing so to save your shoes would be horrendous.
What I am saying is that not wearing a mask is not dissimilar and the point you are completely missing - deliberately or otherwise - is that wearing a mask involves the person wearing it in almost no 'cost'. Certainly no cost worth worrying about. Certainly a lot less 'cost' than ruining a good pair of shoes.
Can I just check a point with you? Do you even acknowledge that by not wearing a mask, you are potentially putting others at risk of catching any Covid that you unknowingly have? |
you are certain that wearing a masks makes a difference to start with | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:24 - Jul 25 with 780 views | 1885_SFC |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:17 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
I'm not saying that they unmasked wouldn't save a drowning child. Of course they would, because everyone knows that not doing so to save your shoes would be horrendous.
What I am saying is that not wearing a mask is not dissimilar and the point you are completely missing - deliberately or otherwise - is that wearing a mask involves the person wearing it in almost no 'cost'. Certainly no cost worth worrying about. Certainly a lot less 'cost' than ruining a good pair of shoes.
Can I just check a point with you? Do you even acknowledge that by not wearing a mask, you are potentially putting others at risk of catching any Covid that you unknowingly have? |
He doesn't care on your last question. To him - if you're worried about catching Covid, i.e. you're in a supermarket buying food that you need , then it's your fault for being in there in the first place if you're anxious/at risk. |  |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:28 - Jul 25 with 776 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:18 - Jul 25 by JaySaint |
you are certain that wearing a masks makes a difference to start with |
Yes, I am. The science on that is clear.
Same question to you Jay. Do you even acknowledge that not wearing a mask represents a risk to others? | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:31 - Jul 25 with 773 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:24 - Jul 25 by 1885_SFC |
He doesn't care on your last question. To him - if you're worried about catching Covid, i.e. you're in a supermarket buying food that you need , then it's your fault for being in there in the first place if you're anxious/at risk. |
Maybe he will admit that. Maybe he acknowledges the risk he poses, but thinks he owes no duty to others.
But Jay seems to be implying that there is no risk.
I'm just trying to fathom what makes these non-maskers tick. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:31 - Jul 25 with 773 views | kernow |
Blend incognito forever.  | | | |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:23 - Jul 25 with 726 views | Jellybaby |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 18:31 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
Maybe he will admit that. Maybe he acknowledges the risk he poses, but thinks he owes no duty to others.
But Jay seems to be implying that there is no risk.
I'm just trying to fathom what makes these non-maskers tick. |
Ian, of course we all have a duty of care to those around us, but it has to be proportinate and others should not make unreasonable demands on us.
If I thought masks worked, I would wear them, the evidence and the statistics are clear, there is no benefit in wearing a mask, it is purely a placebo, and worse a symbol to keep us in a state of fear. Not a single randomised controlled trial can demonstrate the value of mask wearing outside clinical settings.
Asymptomatic transmission is unproven or at the very least not a serious risk, even Dr Fauchi claimed on US TV that an epidemic is not driven by asmptomatic carriers. Once again it is a tool to keep us in fear.
Sweden has never had a mask mandate and I witnessed that first hand last September. This week it has recorded zero covid deaths. This laissez-faire approach was roundly condemned and yet they are in far better shape than we are. When we introduced masks covid deaths increased.
Let me ask you a question - do you think it is okay for this government to employ a team of around 50 behavioural scientists, including Dr Susan Michie, a member of the Communist party, to keep this people in a state of fear and to use masks to do that? | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:56 - Jul 25 with 703 views | 1885_SFC |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:23 - Jul 25 by Jellybaby |
Ian, of course we all have a duty of care to those around us, but it has to be proportinate and others should not make unreasonable demands on us.
If I thought masks worked, I would wear them, the evidence and the statistics are clear, there is no benefit in wearing a mask, it is purely a placebo, and worse a symbol to keep us in a state of fear. Not a single randomised controlled trial can demonstrate the value of mask wearing outside clinical settings.
Asymptomatic transmission is unproven or at the very least not a serious risk, even Dr Fauchi claimed on US TV that an epidemic is not driven by asmptomatic carriers. Once again it is a tool to keep us in fear.
Sweden has never had a mask mandate and I witnessed that first hand last September. This week it has recorded zero covid deaths. This laissez-faire approach was roundly condemned and yet they are in far better shape than we are. When we introduced masks covid deaths increased.
Let me ask you a question - do you think it is okay for this government to employ a team of around 50 behavioural scientists, including Dr Susan Michie, a member of the Communist party, to keep this people in a state of fear and to use masks to do that? |
Where are you getting your misinformation from?
Masks can reduce the "dose" of virus exposure which means a lower amount of exposure might cause less severe infection. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:57 - Jul 25 with 702 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:23 - Jul 25 by Jellybaby |
Ian, of course we all have a duty of care to those around us, but it has to be proportinate and others should not make unreasonable demands on us.
If I thought masks worked, I would wear them, the evidence and the statistics are clear, there is no benefit in wearing a mask, it is purely a placebo, and worse a symbol to keep us in a state of fear. Not a single randomised controlled trial can demonstrate the value of mask wearing outside clinical settings.
Asymptomatic transmission is unproven or at the very least not a serious risk, even Dr Fauchi claimed on US TV that an epidemic is not driven by asmptomatic carriers. Once again it is a tool to keep us in fear.
Sweden has never had a mask mandate and I witnessed that first hand last September. This week it has recorded zero covid deaths. This laissez-faire approach was roundly condemned and yet they are in far better shape than we are. When we introduced masks covid deaths increased.
Let me ask you a question - do you think it is okay for this government to employ a team of around 50 behavioural scientists, including Dr Susan Michie, a member of the Communist party, to keep this people in a state of fear and to use masks to do that? |
OK, I understand now. You don't believe that masks work and you believe in some sort of conspiracy theory about 'keeping us in fear'.
You believe in too many things that I think are completely bonkers, so we are never going to agree on mask wearing.
However, just out of interest, how does is work with Dr Susan Michie? She's a professional academic and her father, Donald Michie, was one of the UK's greatest computer scientists. Is it the UK government who is controlling her and making her pedal all this fear. If so, how does that work, given her antipathy, as a Communist, to all things Tory. Or is it maybe a Communist Party from somewhere?
I'd like to understand how these conspiracy theories work on the ground? And what is her motive in all this? | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:58 - Jul 25 with 701 views | Saintsforeverj |
Vaccines and masks are two separate issues here. Vaccines are proven to work, in fact to 96 %. So because of the vaccine success, society is opening up. All people should have them, it's our route to freedom but masks? How long do we say you must wear a mask? Forever? Whilst it's great that so many continue to wear them to protect others, is it not time to start encouraging people to stop fearing, now we are vaccinated? [Post edited 25 Jul 2021 20:02]
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:11 - Jul 25 with 686 views | Bison |
Jelly seems all over the place one minute he is saying the government ( or maybe governments if its a global conspiracy ) is controlling us by fear and the yet it was the government who stopped mask wearing being compulsory.
I think we have a 'live' one here. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:13 - Jul 25 with 683 views | 1885_SFC |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:22 - Jul 25 with 671 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:58 - Jul 25 by Saintsforeverj |
Vaccines and masks are two separate issues here. Vaccines are proven to work, in fact to 96 %. So because of the vaccine success, society is opening up. All people should have them, it's our route to freedom but masks? How long do we say you must wear a mask? Forever? Whilst it's great that so many continue to wear them to protect others, is it not time to start encouraging people to stop fearing, now we are vaccinated? [Post edited 25 Jul 2021 20:02]
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For me, it's pretty simple. While case numbers are high, I am going to continue to wear a mask in public places.
If case numbers fall to the sort of very low numbers we have seen after virus waves have peaked and dropped back, then I might take a different view.
But throughout I am also going to be guided by what other people want. If a shop keeps a sign up saying 'we would prefer you to keep wearing a mask' , I will wear one because how do I know what sort of health conditions the people in the shop have.
For me, it's absolutely nothing to do with fear and absolutely everything to do with common decency, respecting others' wishes and being happy to accept a mild inconvenience for a few minutes if it helps someone else to be or feel safer. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:24 - Jul 25 with 666 views | Jellybaby |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 19:57 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
OK, I understand now. You don't believe that masks work and you believe in some sort of conspiracy theory about 'keeping us in fear'.
You believe in too many things that I think are completely bonkers, so we are never going to agree on mask wearing.
However, just out of interest, how does is work with Dr Susan Michie? She's a professional academic and her father, Donald Michie, was one of the UK's greatest computer scientists. Is it the UK government who is controlling her and making her pedal all this fear. If so, how does that work, given her antipathy, as a Communist, to all things Tory. Or is it maybe a Communist Party from somewhere?
I'd like to understand how these conspiracy theories work on the ground? And what is her motive in all this? |
I'm disappointed your only response is you,re bonkers. I expect you thought the Wuhan lab theory was bonkers too.
You also didn't answer my question re SPI-B advisors. Loss of freedoms = totalitarianism, is that so hard to see with how things are going.
Even Sajid had to row back on his "cower" quote today! | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:29 - Jul 25 with 660 views | Saintsforeverj |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:22 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
For me, it's pretty simple. While case numbers are high, I am going to continue to wear a mask in public places.
If case numbers fall to the sort of very low numbers we have seen after virus waves have peaked and dropped back, then I might take a different view.
But throughout I am also going to be guided by what other people want. If a shop keeps a sign up saying 'we would prefer you to keep wearing a mask' , I will wear one because how do I know what sort of health conditions the people in the shop have.
For me, it's absolutely nothing to do with fear and absolutely everything to do with common decency, respecting others' wishes and being happy to accept a mild inconvenience for a few minutes if it helps someone else to be or feel safer. |
Ok, well explained. What are your views on Covid passports for PL games and other mass events? It looks like Labour are against it and about 50 Tory MP's, so it may not get through parliament. Violent protests in France about it too. On that, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't have a vaccine that protects them and others from possible death to nearly 100 %. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:49 - Jul 25 with 633 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:24 - Jul 25 by Jellybaby |
I'm disappointed your only response is you,re bonkers. I expect you thought the Wuhan lab theory was bonkers too.
You also didn't answer my question re SPI-B advisors. Loss of freedoms = totalitarianism, is that so hard to see with how things are going.
Even Sajid had to row back on his "cower" quote today! |
Totalitarianism is a system in which every aspect of people's lives are controlled by the state. See North Korea.
Loss of freedom does not equal totalitarianism. In anything other than an anarchist system, individual freedoms are given up for the common good. Every single law is an infringement of my personal freedom.
Do you not believe in laws? Are you an anarchist?
I have no problem in the government taking advice from expert behavioural scientists. In a situation where public health messaging is so important, it is vital to understand how different policies and messages with drop with the public.
Please explain to me who is 'controlling' they SPI-B people who I think you say are hell bent on keeping us imprisoned behind our paper masks? | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:57 - Jul 25 with 627 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:29 - Jul 25 by Saintsforeverj |
Ok, well explained. What are your views on Covid passports for PL games and other mass events? It looks like Labour are against it and about 50 Tory MP's, so it may not get through parliament. Violent protests in France about it too. On that, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't have a vaccine that protects them and others from possible death to nearly 100 %. |
I'm not trying to duck your question but I haven't given it too much thought.
I can see the argument that we don't really want to create a system where citizens who don't want to get vaccinated are excluded from certain aspects of public life.
Maybe the example of my hoping to enter another country is a good one. My wife and I are double jabbed, so we just need to show the certificate. Other people can get in too but they have to show proof of a negative test, so it's harder for them but not impossible. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:02 - Jul 25 with 623 views | Saintsforeverj |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:57 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
I'm not trying to duck your question but I haven't given it too much thought.
I can see the argument that we don't really want to create a system where citizens who don't want to get vaccinated are excluded from certain aspects of public life.
Maybe the example of my hoping to enter another country is a good one. My wife and I are double jabbed, so we just need to show the certificate. Other people can get in too but they have to show proof of a negative test, so it's harder for them but not impossible. |
You see, I can't see the argument at all, for not getting vaccinated, other than a proven medical reason. It doesn't hurt, hundreds of millions have had it successfully, why don't we want to exclude them? They are choosing to make it harder for people to be safe, a bit like those not wearing masks but worse or those choosing to drink drive?
If all the fans are double jabbed, they are all safe. Why should a few non jabbed people, come in and spread the disease to everyone just because they don't want the jab, when there is no reason not to have it? To me, it is like some politicians saying we shouldn't insist people wear their seat belt. What's the reason for allowing people to make the choice not to have it?
[Post edited 25 Jul 2021 21:08]
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:23 - Jul 25 with 602 views | DorsetIan |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:02 - Jul 25 by Saintsforeverj |
You see, I can't see the argument at all, for not getting vaccinated, other than a proven medical reason. It doesn't hurt, hundreds of millions have had it successfully, why don't we want to exclude them? They are choosing to make it harder for people to be safe, a bit like those not wearing masks but worse or those choosing to drink drive?
If all the fans are double jabbed, they are all safe. Why should a few non jabbed people, come in and spread the disease to everyone just because they don't want the jab, when there is no reason not to have it? To me, it is like some politicians saying we shouldn't insist people wear their seat belt. What's the reason for allowing people to make the choice not to have it?
[Post edited 25 Jul 2021 21:08]
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It's a personal freedom argument. That nobody - however misguided - should be forced to take medication that they don't want to. (Unless they have been sectioned).
I think the principle is a sound one, and it should be up to the government and scientists of the day to convince people that taking something is a good idea.
Also, you're seen what all these anti-vaxers already believe -that their lives are being controlled by evil forces. The numbers of people believing such stuff would only increase if we started to force vaccinate people.
I don't think the medical professionals would be too happy about forced vaccinations either. They are big on patient consent. | |
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:29 - Jul 25 with 595 views | Saintsforeverj |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:23 - Jul 25 by DorsetIan |
It's a personal freedom argument. That nobody - however misguided - should be forced to take medication that they don't want to. (Unless they have been sectioned).
I think the principle is a sound one, and it should be up to the government and scientists of the day to convince people that taking something is a good idea.
Also, you're seen what all these anti-vaxers already believe -that their lives are being controlled by evil forces. The numbers of people believing such stuff would only increase if we started to force vaccinate people.
I don't think the medical professionals would be too happy about forced vaccinations either. They are big on patient consent. |
I'm not suggesting forced vaccination. I'm suggesting that there should be consequences for not agreeing to have one (e.g not being able to enter stadiums or places with big crowds). Doctors can't practise without having various vaccinations for example. My point is, why are Labour, 50 Tory MP's and others against saying that if you want to get in a stadium full of people, you need to be vaccinated, in the same way doctors have to or in the same way you lose your licence if you refuse to wear your seat belt. Or rightly so you can't enter certain countries without being jabbed. People ofcourse shouldn't be forced to have it, but they shouldn't be spreading the virus round should they? [Post edited 25 Jul 2021 21:39]
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| People without masks in supermarkets... on 21:29 - Jul 25 with 594 views | Jellybaby |
| People without masks in supermarkets... on 20:13 - Jul 25 by 1885_SFC |
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I rest my case! The behavioural scientists have done their job on you. Anyone who veers off the BBC narrative is a tin hat conpirist. | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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