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Everything that was warned about with regards to switching to a style that the players aren’t suited to is now visible to most. There is a very good reason we didn’t start trying to be Brazil of the 1970’s over the last 2 seasons… and as a result saw the side be one of the best in the league… it’s because the manager realised the limitations of the squad and played to their strengths. That’s management.
I am wondering at what point the collective penny will drop that we cannot continue to play this way UNTIL we have the squad capable to do it. The Championship is too strong a league to be doing that, last time we got to this level we were a slick, well oiled machine with players capable of playing Premier League football in Dyer, Williams, Rangel and Britton. That spine would go on to win the League Cup, finish top half in the Premier League and perform well in Europe…. A championship spine it was not.
We had the players with ability leagues above the level they were playing at meaning we could afford to take some risks with regards to playing style. A nearing prime Leon Britton in league 1 seems a bit laughable now doesn’t it? That’s because it was.
The situation sadly is not the same today. We need to play to our strengths, get some points on the board, get the players in that we need and slowly incorporate the system you want. People talk of long term plans… and then change a system overnight?! We will get slaughtered at this level.
How about that actually becomes the longer term plan touted about and we slowly implement it while protecting our Championship status? Too mad an idea?
We do not want to lose our league position and drop down to league 1 as I see some people now happily stating they wouldn’t mind. I find that sad to read and extremely naive.
Relegation won’t mean us having an easy season to test this style against, we will lose even more players, have less income to replace them and the spiral continues. It’s an arrogant point of view to think relegation can be handled easily by the club.
Relegation is not a positive option and the fact we have gone from play offs to the Premier League to accepting the realities and the weighing up of pros and cons of League 1 football in such a short space of time should tell you something ain’t right.
I like Russell Martin, I think he has a good future in the game, my issue is not with him and I hope he stays for a long time to build something. My issue is with the attitude surrounding everything at the moment that we must play a certain way immediately, regardless of the damage it will cause.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 01:32 - Aug 18 by jasper_T
It's been two weeks, calm down.
Perfectly calm Jasper.
These points aren’t time specific, they are process specific. The points that we should have the players that can implement a style before actually implementing it is a point that can be made after 2 days or 2 years, that notion doesn’t change with time.
In fact I was saying this last year as a reason why we don’t play that way. This isn’t an opinion I have developed after 2 weeks, it’s an opinion that has always been true and will continue to be so.
But I’m sure you are well aware of that.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Id give it another 2 home games, if results don't change then the natives will become restless.
The frustration was there for all to see & hear last night in the East.
If you are pinging the ball between centre halves & the keeper when you are winning its fine, when you are watching highly paid players unable to pass the ball 5 yards & look like they have no idea what they should be doing its a different matter.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2021 9:37]
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When will the penny drop? on 09:33 - Aug 18 with 4703 views
When will the penny drop? on 09:20 - Aug 18 by pencoedjack
Id give it another 2 home games, if results don't change then the natives will become restless.
The frustration was there for all to see & hear last night in the East.
If you are pinging the ball between centre halves & the keeper when you are winning its fine, when you are watching highly paid players unable to pass the ball 5 yards & look like they have no idea what they should be doing its a different matter.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2021 9:37]
It's inevitable.
Even if we aren't winning but the system makes sense, that's fine too. But asking some of these players to play tiki taka is like asking a Fiat Panda to race in the Daytona 500. No amount of driver practice will make that work.
Need a new car before you can even think of entering.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 01:54 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Perfectly calm Jasper.
These points aren’t time specific, they are process specific. The points that we should have the players that can implement a style before actually implementing it is a point that can be made after 2 days or 2 years, that notion doesn’t change with time.
In fact I was saying this last year as a reason why we don’t play that way. This isn’t an opinion I have developed after 2 weeks, it’s an opinion that has always been true and will continue to be so.
But I’m sure you are well aware of that.
100% agree
We have not the players and won't have eirher as they cost money we don't have.
Our fans are living in fantasy land right now swallowing the Russ "hope" for better times.
Basically the OP is saying we should not try to improve playing style because it is hard and might take a while, we should stick to the tried and tested joy that was Cooperball because that's what delighted crowds and led to a position where we could be humiliated in the play offs.
When will the penny drop? on 09:53 - Aug 18 by Badlands
Basically the OP is saying we should not try to improve playing style because it is hard and might take a while, we should stick to the tried and tested joy that was Cooperball because that's what delighted crowds and led to a position where we could be humiliated in the play offs.
That's not what I am saying at all, be that basically or otherwise.
What I am saying is we should take a more sensible approach to the game until we have the players capable of playing it.
Its not rocket science.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 09:53 - Aug 18 by Badlands
Basically the OP is saying we should not try to improve playing style because it is hard and might take a while, we should stick to the tried and tested joy that was Cooperball because that's what delighted crowds and led to a position where we could be humiliated in the play offs.
What style bad? The one which sees the team ripped asunder. How long you going to give it. 3 months/12 months/36 months?
It's a matter of time.
Play as we are and we will be relegated .If you want that then fine but it is not for me. We spent many years building our club and I d hate to see it destroyed.
When will the penny drop? on 10:04 - Aug 18 by onehunglow
What style bad? The one which sees the team ripped asunder. How long you going to give it. 3 months/12 months/36 months?
It's a matter of time.
Play as we are and we will be relegated .If you want that then fine but it is not for me. We spent many years building our club and I d hate to see it destroyed.
This is not personal attack on Martin by the way
Let's say there is a 45 stone couch potato who comes to a cross roads in his life and decides a change of lifestyle is in order as he would like to run a marathon as his long term goal.
He doesn't enter that week, it would be disastrous for his health - he enters when he is physically ready to compete.
We are not ready to play this way and it may have a serious impact on this clubs long term health implementing it long before a time when we are.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2021 10:19]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
A 45 stone couch potato? What a ridiculous analogy.
How do we slowly implement the change? The players are working through the change, Martin is assessing them to see who will be part of the future and who will not. We only have the windows to bring players in but we have the academy players who were all being brought up on the more tiki taka style. It was never going to happen in 2/3 weeks and calling it a failure already is just as silly as the analogy. What is really telling is Martin saying the players aren't fit enough. What was Cooper doing in pre season? Has he guaranteed we had a slow start whatever happened because the players aren't properly conditioned? Saying stick with the old style also ignores a very important point, we don't have Ayew, we don't have Guehi, Roberts is out for several weeks yet and we may yet see Grimes and Bidwell leave. What is so much better about sticking to a style that Piroe, Joseph, Laird, Downes, Paterson and Benda aren't well coached in? Even more of a reason is we haven't appointed a manager to coach that style, we chose Martin (and have backed his bringing players in) because we wanted that change. If the player were to carry on with Cooperball, when do they work on the new approach? What do they do in training, a 50/50 split? Instead of being so negative maybe people should remember that it'll take time, it won't be a few weeks it'll be a few months before we are near where Martin wants to be.
Instead of comparing a dump truck to a sports car maybe a better analogy is an old sports car that needs a tune up and some new tyres. We have some new tyres now we're working on the tune up. Any player that can't pass a ball 5 yards to feet wouldn't survive in the Swansea league let alone a pro division. Any pro that can't do it should be sent packing.
When will the penny drop? on 11:25 - Aug 18 by Catullus
A 45 stone couch potato? What a ridiculous analogy.
How do we slowly implement the change? The players are working through the change, Martin is assessing them to see who will be part of the future and who will not. We only have the windows to bring players in but we have the academy players who were all being brought up on the more tiki taka style. It was never going to happen in 2/3 weeks and calling it a failure already is just as silly as the analogy. What is really telling is Martin saying the players aren't fit enough. What was Cooper doing in pre season? Has he guaranteed we had a slow start whatever happened because the players aren't properly conditioned? Saying stick with the old style also ignores a very important point, we don't have Ayew, we don't have Guehi, Roberts is out for several weeks yet and we may yet see Grimes and Bidwell leave. What is so much better about sticking to a style that Piroe, Joseph, Laird, Downes, Paterson and Benda aren't well coached in? Even more of a reason is we haven't appointed a manager to coach that style, we chose Martin (and have backed his bringing players in) because we wanted that change. If the player were to carry on with Cooperball, when do they work on the new approach? What do they do in training, a 50/50 split? Instead of being so negative maybe people should remember that it'll take time, it won't be a few weeks it'll be a few months before we are near where Martin wants to be.
Instead of comparing a dump truck to a sports car maybe a better analogy is an old sports car that needs a tune up and some new tyres. We have some new tyres now we're working on the tune up. Any player that can't pass a ball 5 yards to feet wouldn't survive in the Swansea league let alone a pro division. Any pro that can't do it should be sent packing.
Yep, why is that ridiculous? The analogy being of course that having a long term goal is one thing, but jumping straight into implementing it can be detrimental. But again, I am sure you could work that out for yourself?
We slowly implement change by adopting a more direct approach that doesn't involve technically limited players knocking it about amongst themselves in front of our own goal under severe pressure.
When we get the players in that have the technical ability to do it then we can do so.
It isn't about passing 5 yards to someone's feet and that is not at all what tiki taka is, its about precise intelligent passing, often one touch under extreme pressure. And no, not everyone can do that, far from it. Clearly.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 11:29 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep, why is that ridiculous? The analogy being of course that having a long term goal is one thing, but jumping straight into implementing it can be detrimental. But again, I am sure you could work that out for yourself?
We slowly implement change by adopting a more direct approach that doesn't involve technically limited players knocking it about amongst themselves in front of our own goal under severe pressure.
When we get the players in that have the technical ability to do it then we can do so.
It isn't about passing 5 yards to someone's feet and that is not at all what tiki taka is, its about precise intelligent passing, often one touch under extreme pressure. And no, not everyone can do that, far from it. Clearly.
So when do said players get brought in? No-one has mentioned tika taka football other than you as far as I'm aware. Just like our players to be able to pass forwards now and again. Cooper has gone, you and a few others need to get over it. RM is in the chair, if he doesn't deliver then he'll be gone as well. However I think he'll do okay, we are obviously not fit enough to play how he wants us to play and it may have been a shock to him to see how technically limited some of our players are.
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When will the penny drop? on 12:11 - Aug 18 with 4432 views
When will the penny drop? on 12:01 - Aug 18 by Treforys_Jack
So when do said players get brought in? No-one has mentioned tika taka football other than you as far as I'm aware. Just like our players to be able to pass forwards now and again. Cooper has gone, you and a few others need to get over it. RM is in the chair, if he doesn't deliver then he'll be gone as well. However I think he'll do okay, we are obviously not fit enough to play how he wants us to play and it may have been a shock to him to see how technically limited some of our players are.
That's not for me to say, I have no idea what the plans are with regards to transfers.
What has Cooper got to do with anything? I haven't mentioned him. My point is we don't have the players to play this style, if we plan on adopting this style long term then we need to get the players in that can play that way first, that is directly to do with Martin and nothing to do with Cooper in the slightest.
You don't run before you can walk.
This style is tiki taka, it's characterised by short passing and movement, working the ball through various channels, and maintaining possession. however we are severely lacking in those channels as we don't have much width in the team and we don't have a comfortable possession friendly base to work with.
Martin has said there are some square pegs in round holes, he can see some of these players can't really play in the positions they are being made to. So be a bit dynamic with your tactics until we have the players to play it. I refuse to believe he is that rigid and one dimensional. Common sense.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2021 12:15]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 10:04 - Aug 18 by onehunglow
What style bad? The one which sees the team ripped asunder. How long you going to give it. 3 months/12 months/36 months?
It's a matter of time.
Play as we are and we will be relegated .If you want that then fine but it is not for me. We spent many years building our club and I d hate to see it destroyed.
This is not personal attack on Martin by the way
we wrest 'ripped asunder' get a grip. Monk and Cooper 'style' is what has done for us as they ignored or got shot of skilful players so when they were sacked the squad was in no position to play football.
When will the penny drop? on 10:11 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Let's say there is a 45 stone couch potato who comes to a cross roads in his life and decides a change of lifestyle is in order as he would like to run a marathon as his long term goal.
He doesn't enter that week, it would be disastrous for his health - he enters when he is physically ready to compete.
We are not ready to play this way and it may have a serious impact on this clubs long term health implementing it long before a time when we are.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2021 10:19]
And what if the manager is unequipped to play in a pragmatic way?
When will the penny drop? on 11:25 - Aug 18 by Catullus
A 45 stone couch potato? What a ridiculous analogy.
How do we slowly implement the change? The players are working through the change, Martin is assessing them to see who will be part of the future and who will not. We only have the windows to bring players in but we have the academy players who were all being brought up on the more tiki taka style. It was never going to happen in 2/3 weeks and calling it a failure already is just as silly as the analogy. What is really telling is Martin saying the players aren't fit enough. What was Cooper doing in pre season? Has he guaranteed we had a slow start whatever happened because the players aren't properly conditioned? Saying stick with the old style also ignores a very important point, we don't have Ayew, we don't have Guehi, Roberts is out for several weeks yet and we may yet see Grimes and Bidwell leave. What is so much better about sticking to a style that Piroe, Joseph, Laird, Downes, Paterson and Benda aren't well coached in? Even more of a reason is we haven't appointed a manager to coach that style, we chose Martin (and have backed his bringing players in) because we wanted that change. If the player were to carry on with Cooperball, when do they work on the new approach? What do they do in training, a 50/50 split? Instead of being so negative maybe people should remember that it'll take time, it won't be a few weeks it'll be a few months before we are near where Martin wants to be.
Instead of comparing a dump truck to a sports car maybe a better analogy is an old sports car that needs a tune up and some new tyres. We have some new tyres now we're working on the tune up. Any player that can't pass a ball 5 yards to feet wouldn't survive in the Swansea league let alone a pro division. Any pro that can't do it should be sent packing.
Watch a rerun of last nights game because Lowe on numerous occasions failed in passing the ball 5 yards.
So if we give it a few months for the players to settle into the new style where would you expect us to be league come Christmas?
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When will the penny drop? on 12:31 - Aug 18 with 4384 views
When will the penny drop? on 11:25 - Aug 18 by Catullus
A 45 stone couch potato? What a ridiculous analogy.
How do we slowly implement the change? The players are working through the change, Martin is assessing them to see who will be part of the future and who will not. We only have the windows to bring players in but we have the academy players who were all being brought up on the more tiki taka style. It was never going to happen in 2/3 weeks and calling it a failure already is just as silly as the analogy. What is really telling is Martin saying the players aren't fit enough. What was Cooper doing in pre season? Has he guaranteed we had a slow start whatever happened because the players aren't properly conditioned? Saying stick with the old style also ignores a very important point, we don't have Ayew, we don't have Guehi, Roberts is out for several weeks yet and we may yet see Grimes and Bidwell leave. What is so much better about sticking to a style that Piroe, Joseph, Laird, Downes, Paterson and Benda aren't well coached in? Even more of a reason is we haven't appointed a manager to coach that style, we chose Martin (and have backed his bringing players in) because we wanted that change. If the player were to carry on with Cooperball, when do they work on the new approach? What do they do in training, a 50/50 split? Instead of being so negative maybe people should remember that it'll take time, it won't be a few weeks it'll be a few months before we are near where Martin wants to be.
Instead of comparing a dump truck to a sports car maybe a better analogy is an old sports car that needs a tune up and some new tyres. We have some new tyres now we're working on the tune up. Any player that can't pass a ball 5 yards to feet wouldn't survive in the Swansea league let alone a pro division. Any pro that can't do it should be sent packing.
When will the penny drop? on 12:28 - Aug 18 by jackrmee
And what if the manager is unequipped to play in a pragmatic way?
In terms of players?
Last season showed we can play well above the squads ability by playing to their strengths which was a defensive based game.
If they are serious about the system changing then they will eventually bring in the players to play that way. Until that time there is no point in going out and losing every week, get some points on the board and when it’s time to play that way then we can.
Number 1 priority should be to survive. That looking far from secure playing this way with the players that have had a clear deficiency in those technical areas for a long time. This isn’t a surprise is the point being made.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 12:28 - Aug 18 by pencoedjack
Watch a rerun of last nights game because Lowe on numerous occasions failed in passing the ball 5 yards.
So if we give it a few months for the players to settle into the new style where would you expect us to be league come Christmas?
Yep, people are in cloud cuckoo land.
Littered with continuous examples of players not being able to play the accurate ball under organised pressure. Contrary to popular belief, it’s not an easy skill even for professionals.
We had the likes of Britton doing it for us last time who was the best in the business at this level.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 12:45 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus
In terms of players?
Last season showed we can play well above the squads ability by playing to their strengths which was a defensive based game.
If they are serious about the system changing then they will eventually bring in the players to play that way. Until that time there is no point in going out and losing every week, get some points on the board and when it’s time to play that way then we can.
Number 1 priority should be to survive. That looking far from secure playing this way with the players that have had a clear deficiency in those technical areas for a long time. This isn’t a surprise is the point being made.
No, I meant tactically inept in the pragmatic side of the game. What if RM is only able to play in this passing style. Similar to how Cooper would have been totally unable to play this passing football.
When will the penny drop? on 12:51 - Aug 18 by jackrmee
No, I meant tactically inept in the pragmatic side of the game. What if RM is only able to play in this passing style. Similar to how Cooper would have been totally unable to play this passing football.
I don’t believe Cooper was only able to play a certain way, like I don’t believe Martin is. I think stubbornness may eventually play a part when the penny does finally drop.
I am pretty sure he is capable of deciding to not knock the ball around in front of our goal using technically limited players.
Unless you think I have more faith in him than I should?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 13:12 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus
I don’t believe Cooper was only able to play a certain way, like I don’t believe Martin is. I think stubbornness may eventually play a part when the penny does finally drop.
I am pretty sure he is capable of deciding to not knock the ball around in front of our goal using technically limited players.
Unless you think I have more faith in him than I should?
So both managers are tactically sound. It's that all our players cannot pass? Or have concentration issues?
When will the penny drop? on 13:16 - Aug 18 by jackrmee
So both managers are tactically sound. It's that all our players cannot pass? Or have concentration issues?
Well Cooper took a limited squad from 10th when he took over, changed the style to one more suited to them and got us to 6th, then got us to 4th. We had a joint record points tally and one of the best defensive records in the league (if not, the best). That requires extreme tactical nouse.
Martin has come in and taken the same group of players that Cooper recognised had their strength in defence rather than possession and creation and decided that they play that way despite not being known for that ability throughout many of their careers.
What Martins tactical nouse is like we are yet to see. I would like to think it’s fairly extensive considering we have employed him to be our manager, but maybe you are right and I am giving him too much credit. Who knows.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When will the penny drop? on 12:26 - Aug 18 by Badlands
we wrest 'ripped asunder' get a grip. Monk and Cooper 'style' is what has done for us as they ignored or got shot of skilful players so when they were sacked the squad was in no position to play football.
Which skilful players did Cooper get rid of? I don’t think he’s responsible for sales is he?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
I do not buy that professional footballers (under direction ) cannot pass the ball accurately under pressure. All teams do the drills. It takes fitness and practice.
Monk, Tate, Williams Taylor were not world class passing players but applied themselves and were not caught out too often. The MK Dons squad could do it although under less pressure seen in the championship.
I think the likes of Bennett, Fulton, Bidwell possible Lowe days could be numbered unless they can become more careful in possession. Having gone down this route there is no turning back. It will prevail eventually. its just a matter on how long it will take.
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