| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? 08:45 - Nov 9 with 15794 views | saint901 |
I see Cruella is again ranting about how the police are against the Tories in their desire to create a "fair" society. This time it's because the police will not prevent a march in support of the Palestinians this weekend.
I'm sure the question of whether we as individuals support the Israeli or Palestinian sides in the present conflict will produce as many answers as there are people asked. In my conversations with people, they can see both sides of the story here - none of them good.
I think that ambivalence has its roots deep in our world view (and view of ourselves) but ultimately, most of us believe that we should be able to express ourselves without fear of being nicked by the Met. Cruella is trying to loan the dice here for her own political objectives and in my opinion at least, is the one at fault.
She has form here. Personally I think she's trying to provoke Rishi into sacking her so that she can run for leader before the next election. The prospect of such a right wing lunatic in charge of the Tories is really scary.
She is MP for Fareham. The good burgers of Fareham can do us all a favour here and get rid of her in the next election becasue who would want to be represented by such a vile person. |  | | |  |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 09:39 - Nov 9 with 12069 views | Wints76 |
I think your penultimate paragraph seems to be the general way of thinking. Trying to get sacked and launch a leadership bid with the backing of the more swivel eyed members of what used to be the Conservative Party |  | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 09:57 - Nov 9 with 12053 views | Bazza |
Burgers of Farnham, is that Burger King or MacDs?
More seriously I think the naive pro-Palestine lot are choosing the same weekend as Remembrance to be provocative, pity they’re not campaigning for the hostages’ release.
Just face it , it’s personal you just hate Braverman whatever. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:50]
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 10:53 - Nov 9 with 12017 views | saint901 |
Do I "hate" Braverman?
No - I've never met the woman and consequently have no view on her as a person.
Do I hate what she says and the way she says it? Yes.
Do I hate that many will see her expressed views as representing the UK (she is after all a very senior politician)? Yes - absolutely. She does not represent my views.
MPs - especially Ministers - should first and foremost have loyalty to the country and should resist the urge to pander to their own prejudices or political ambitions.
She has clearly demonstrated an inability to do that - deliberately or otherwise - and should be removed from Gov't, the Tory Party and be banned (using the same hate laws she uses to suppress alternative opinions) from ever holding public office. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 11:02 - Nov 9 with 12015 views | Heisenberg |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 09:57 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
Burgers of Farnham, is that Burger King or MacDs?
More seriously I think the naive pro-Palestine lot are choosing the same weekend as Remembrance to be provocative, pity they’re not campaigning for the hostages’ release.
Just face it , it’s personal you just hate Braverman whatever. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:50]
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It’s not on Remembrance Sunday and the route goes nowhere near the cenotaph. Any decision on this lies with the police. Braverman has now stoked up potential trouble to promote herself.
Her job is to help the police keep the peace not stir things up. |  |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 11:39 - Nov 9 with 11991 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 11:02 - Nov 9 by Heisenberg |
It’s not on Remembrance Sunday and the route goes nowhere near the cenotaph. Any decision on this lies with the police. Braverman has now stoked up potential trouble to promote herself.
Her job is to help the police keep the peace not stir things up. |
Braverman has authority over the police does she not? The police have been wishy washy about this issue, no doubt daunted by the huge numbers of Muslims. At the very least they should stop them harassing poppy sellers and stoking general disturbance.
Btw still no comment on freeing hostages from Pro Palestine group and they are calling for Jihad so Braverman/Police should consider banning their rally.
( If the evil Hamas freed the hostages it could enable peace talks - oh I am forgetting that Hamas objective is to annihilate Israel)
Before you ask I'm not Jewish [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:52]
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 12:39 - Nov 9 with 11950 views | saint901 |
There are two sides to every story Mr Bazza, especially so when looking at the situation in Israel.
Any right minded person would condemn terrorist attacks on civilians and the taking of hostages.
I suggest that those same people would find the indiscriminate bombing of civilians who have nowhere to go, equally repugnant.
It is the case that both sides have over the past 75 years committed acts which deserve to be seen as unacceptable.
Here however we are discussing the UK - our home.
We have welcomed persons of all shades of opinion and whatever other distinctions you want to draw. Sometimes that is after a long struggle and many mis-steps but there are here. We have gone for the multi-cultural model rather than the inclusive model and in doing so we invite minorities to continue with their preferred way of thinking, whilst giving them opportunity to take advantage of certain UK freedoms.
One of those is the right to protest - peacefully - and to express themselves publicly.
To invite people in and then seek to limit their actions does not fit that model. It seems to me that Cruella is wishing to control and direct the actions of certain groups who she - and she is looking increasingly isolated weven with the Tory party - disagrees with.
If she were able to prove that the protesters are terrorists (hammas or otherwise) and that the intent is to cause harm or promote a terrorist cause, she has a point. But she has not done that. She has simply branded ALL Palestinians and those who support them as unwelcome and unwanted and a group who should be suppressed.
I wonder if she thinks pro Israeli marches etc should also be policed "actively"?
That is a path to a very bleak future. If politicians of the extreme right or left are able to say who the police can and cannot arrest, where does it end? | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 13:51 - Nov 9 with 11899 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 12:39 - Nov 9 by saint901 |
There are two sides to every story Mr Bazza, especially so when looking at the situation in Israel.
Any right minded person would condemn terrorist attacks on civilians and the taking of hostages.
I suggest that those same people would find the indiscriminate bombing of civilians who have nowhere to go, equally repugnant.
It is the case that both sides have over the past 75 years committed acts which deserve to be seen as unacceptable.
Here however we are discussing the UK - our home.
We have welcomed persons of all shades of opinion and whatever other distinctions you want to draw. Sometimes that is after a long struggle and many mis-steps but there are here. We have gone for the multi-cultural model rather than the inclusive model and in doing so we invite minorities to continue with their preferred way of thinking, whilst giving them opportunity to take advantage of certain UK freedoms.
One of those is the right to protest - peacefully - and to express themselves publicly.
To invite people in and then seek to limit their actions does not fit that model. It seems to me that Cruella is wishing to control and direct the actions of certain groups who she - and she is looking increasingly isolated weven with the Tory party - disagrees with.
If she were able to prove that the protesters are terrorists (hammas or otherwise) and that the intent is to cause harm or promote a terrorist cause, she has a point. But she has not done that. She has simply branded ALL Palestinians and those who support them as unwelcome and unwanted and a group who should be suppressed.
I wonder if she thinks pro Israeli marches etc should also be policed "actively"?
That is a path to a very bleak future. If politicians of the extreme right or left are able to say who the police can and cannot arrest, where does it end? |
Well argued until the point on whether Pro Palestine is supporting terrorists. Clearly Hamas are terrorists going into Israel and taking hostages plus wanting to destroy that democratic country.
So the key point then is whether Hamas is a principal organ behind the rally, sounds like it from the chants. So in my book the rally is terrorist in its core and loses its democratic rights. Unfortunately naive Muslims are being conned due to their hatred of Israel. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 16:54 - Nov 9 with 11800 views | Heisenberg |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 13:51 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
Well argued until the point on whether Pro Palestine is supporting terrorists. Clearly Hamas are terrorists going into Israel and taking hostages plus wanting to destroy that democratic country.
So the key point then is whether Hamas is a principal organ behind the rally, sounds like it from the chants. So in my book the rally is terrorist in its core and loses its democratic rights. Unfortunately naive Muslims are being conned due to their hatred of Israel. |
I’ve attended two demonstrations in order to take photographs. One with an estimated 15000 people. I witnessed the organisers calling for respect for the police and by passers and a call for no anti Jewish chanting or burning of Israeli flags. There was lots of chanting of the river to the sea alongside calls for an immediate ceasefire but I did not hear one pro Hamas chant. There were no arrests and police praised the behaviour of the demonstrators. Far from Bravermans mob. The right to peaceful protest is a fundamental right. Let’s hope Sunak shows some balls and sends her to sit alongside mad Liz. | |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 17:10 - Nov 9 with 11787 views | StRipper |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 11:39 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
Braverman has authority over the police does she not? The police have been wishy washy about this issue, no doubt daunted by the huge numbers of Muslims. At the very least they should stop them harassing poppy sellers and stoking general disturbance.
Btw still no comment on freeing hostages from Pro Palestine group and they are calling for Jihad so Braverman/Police should consider banning their rally.
( If the evil Hamas freed the hostages it could enable peace talks - oh I am forgetting that Hamas objective is to annihilate Israel)
Before you ask I'm not Jewish [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:52]
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Totally agree that the Government is looking to create a problem here and stoke up tensions.
The truth is that there have been multiple attempts to negotiate the release of hostages, all rejected by the Israeli Govt. However, the Israeli governments "Hannibal" policy is that they will not negotiate and would rather kill their own people being held hostages so as not to be seen as weak.
In the last effort, there was a request to release hostages in return for UN controlled issue of food, water and urgent basic supplies to Palestinians. The Israelis rejected this.
This is all on record and you can look it up.
The Israeli Government, supported by the US, created and funded Hamas, just as they do with ISIS. Again, this is all on record and was confirmed recently in an Interview with the Israeli ambassador to the US in the Wall Street Times. There are interviews with Netanyahu when he demands that governments fund Hamas to help the Israeli cause.
Most recently it has come out that Israeli helicopter gunships shot their own people as they ran from Hamas kidnappers at the festival on October 7th as it was too hard to distinguish between them. You can find the footage on Twitter | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 17:24 - Nov 9 with 11767 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 17:10 - Nov 9 by StRipper |
Totally agree that the Government is looking to create a problem here and stoke up tensions.
The truth is that there have been multiple attempts to negotiate the release of hostages, all rejected by the Israeli Govt. However, the Israeli governments "Hannibal" policy is that they will not negotiate and would rather kill their own people being held hostages so as not to be seen as weak.
In the last effort, there was a request to release hostages in return for UN controlled issue of food, water and urgent basic supplies to Palestinians. The Israelis rejected this.
This is all on record and you can look it up.
The Israeli Government, supported by the US, created and funded Hamas, just as they do with ISIS. Again, this is all on record and was confirmed recently in an Interview with the Israeli ambassador to the US in the Wall Street Times. There are interviews with Netanyahu when he demands that governments fund Hamas to help the Israeli cause.
Most recently it has come out that Israeli helicopter gunships shot their own people as they ran from Hamas kidnappers at the festival on October 7th as it was too hard to distinguish between them. You can find the footage on Twitter |
Your views are so completely different from my information so perhaps you could provide some sources, hopefully not from the Guardian.
Twitter is NOT a source of verifiable information.
The Hannibal policy is not as you’ve stated, it’s to do with reaction if Israel soldiers are attacked. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 17:31]
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:00 - Nov 9 with 11725 views | saint901 |
I would like to see the evidence referred to in which a senior Israeli politician asks governments to fund an organisation that most of them has proscribed as terrorists.
I'd guess that most governments have laws which prohibit the funding of terrorists?
There is mention of the Wall St Journal or NYT? Can a link to that be provided please?
I'm also well aware that the situation in Gaza/Israel is an invitation to conspiracy fantasies but I hoped that we could keep the discussion above that level. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:23 - Nov 9 with 11701 views | Bazza |
I’m afraid you’re being hoodwinked
eg Israel is a democratic country.
It does not and never has funded the Hamas terrorists whose stated objective is to destroy Israel.
Hamas wanted to impose several conditions before they would release the current hostages. The hostages for the most part are innocent civilians whereas Hamas want release of prisoners.
Seems we’re never going agree on this conflict but certainly I’ll try to keep an open mind depending on official statements rather than biased news items.
Braverman is a political issue but views are polarised as evidenced by the previous comments on this thread. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:45 - Nov 9 with 11671 views | StRipper |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:23 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
I’m afraid you’re being hoodwinked
eg Israel is a democratic country.
It does not and never has funded the Hamas terrorists whose stated objective is to destroy Israel.
Hamas wanted to impose several conditions before they would release the current hostages. The hostages for the most part are innocent civilians whereas Hamas want release of prisoners.
Seems we’re never going agree on this conflict but certainly I’ll try to keep an open mind depending on official statements rather than biased news items.
Braverman is a political issue but views are polarised as evidenced by the previous comments on this thread. |
You think I am being hoodwinked??? Some cognitive dissonance there, fella.
You are actually denying reported facts that have actually been published in the Times of Israel and Haaretz - Both Israeli newspapers? Based on what? How on earth do you think that you know better?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown
https://archive.ph/DMNHl#selection-473.0-473.110
Or denying what was published in the Washington Post about hostages.
Am really not looking for agreement. We all have our own views, and forever may that continue. I am just sharing a bit of info that I hoped might give a bit more insight than the manipulative garbage produced from the UK outlets, the left/right paradigm of which people constantly fall for. Especially Sky, BBC, Talk and GB News or any of the printed press. They are all just part of the State propaganda machine.
As Mark Twain said, its easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:50 - Nov 9 with 11667 views | Capt_Koons |
She's a lunatic. But not to be taken seriously. She,s every bit as dim as she looks.
Her ravings are all about getting the top job once the Tories lose the next GE. |  |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:04 - Nov 9 with 11654 views | saintmark1976 |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:45 - Nov 9 by StRipper |
You think I am being hoodwinked??? Some cognitive dissonance there, fella.
You are actually denying reported facts that have actually been published in the Times of Israel and Haaretz - Both Israeli newspapers? Based on what? How on earth do you think that you know better?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown
https://archive.ph/DMNHl#selection-473.0-473.110
Or denying what was published in the Washington Post about hostages.
Am really not looking for agreement. We all have our own views, and forever may that continue. I am just sharing a bit of info that I hoped might give a bit more insight than the manipulative garbage produced from the UK outlets, the left/right paradigm of which people constantly fall for. Especially Sky, BBC, Talk and GB News or any of the printed press. They are all just part of the State propaganda machine.
As Mark Twain said, its easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled. |
StRipper, Saint901, Wints76 and Heisenberg.
When it comes to Bazza and his views perhaps the more appropriate Mark Twain expression is:-
“ Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience “ | |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:21 - Nov 9 with 11633 views | PaleRider |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:23 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
I’m afraid you’re being hoodwinked
eg Israel is a democratic country.
It does not and never has funded the Hamas terrorists whose stated objective is to destroy Israel.
Hamas wanted to impose several conditions before they would release the current hostages. The hostages for the most part are innocent civilians whereas Hamas want release of prisoners.
Seems we’re never going agree on this conflict but certainly I’ll try to keep an open mind depending on official statements rather than biased news items.
Braverman is a political issue but views are polarised as evidenced by the previous comments on this thread. |
Bazza, you asked for evidence or sources, which we have all been provided with and we can judge their veracity. As a courtesy, could you provide your sources of information so that we can also judge those. Not taking sides here but just asking for balance. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:30 - Nov 9 with 11622 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:04 - Nov 9 by saintmark1976 |
StRipper, Saint901, Wints76 and Heisenberg.
When it comes to Bazza and his views perhaps the more appropriate Mark Twain expression is:-
“ Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience “ |
You really don’t know who your talking to.
Flooding dubious information from biased sources or misreading valid sources is not fact.
Maybe I’m being duped. Maybe you are.
Absolutely no need to resort to insults when you disagree unless that’s the best you can do. Better save it for Twitter, or St Mary’s | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:35 - Nov 9 with 11613 views | Bazza |
PS chanting from the river to the sea is referencing annihilation of Israel, so a terrorist chant. I don’t think you should interrupt while the adults are talking | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 21:08 - Nov 9 with 11540 views | saintmark1976 |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:30 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
You really don’t know who your talking to.
Flooding dubious information from biased sources or misreading valid sources is not fact.
Maybe I’m being duped. Maybe you are.
Absolutely no need to resort to insults when you disagree unless that’s the best you can do. Better save it for Twitter, or St Mary’s |
Bazza, I’m happy to heed Mark Twain’s advice, hence I won’t argue with you. | |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 22:36 - Nov 9 with 11493 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 19:21 - Nov 9 by PaleRider |
Bazza, you asked for evidence or sources, which we have all been provided with and we can judge their veracity. As a courtesy, could you provide your sources of information so that we can also judge those. Not taking sides here but just asking for balance. |
My sources are merely several tv news channels particularly those with personal interviews of main actors from both sides of the war plus a few personal comments of a Israeli resident.
No attention paid much to others apart from those here(really). Frankly I think a lot of the info generously given here maybe subject to interpretation and subtle bias particularly newspaper comments. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 02:14 - Nov 10 with 11437 views | StRipper |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 22:36 - Nov 9 by Bazza |
My sources are merely several tv news channels particularly those with personal interviews of main actors from both sides of the war plus a few personal comments of a Israeli resident.
No attention paid much to others apart from those here(really). Frankly I think a lot of the info generously given here maybe subject to interpretation and subtle bias particularly newspaper comments. |
Which news channels? | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 03:19 - Nov 10 with 11428 views | DorsetIan |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 18:50 - Nov 9 by Capt_Koons |
She's a lunatic. But not to be taken seriously. She,s every bit as dim as she looks.
Her ravings are all about getting the top job once the Tories lose the next GE. |
This.
The mistake is taking anything she says as if she means it. She doesn’t. 100% performative. And, yes, super dim and prob a bit mad. Sociopath would be my guess. | |
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| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 09:05 - Nov 10 with 11363 views | Bazza |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 02:14 - Nov 10 by StRipper |
Which news channels? |
BBC, Talk Tv, GB news. Better suggestions welcome. | | | |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 12:06 - Nov 10 with 11295 views | StRipper |
| Braverman - deliberately provocative or a genuine lunatic? on 09:05 - Nov 10 by Bazza |
BBC, Talk Tv, GB news. Better suggestions welcome. |
Sadly Bazz, you're never going to get an honest view from the TV. The TV is controlled by regulators, which means they will only show what is state approved, or they lose their licence. Look what happened to RT news the moment the Ukraine war started. They didn't want us to see the other perspective to give balance.
Especially in the place we are at now. Even we don't have a democracy, or the appearance of one, and neither does Europe - who voted for Sunak and who wants Starmer as an alternative?
So TV is always going to be heavily weighted to support what the State wants the public to get behind and go along with. Even, in this case, empathising with a fascist state killing women and kids indiscriminately, including their own - who we provide weapons to and hope to get the drilling contracts off of the coast of Gaza for.
That's why we're allowed to see the TV news, because the ruling powers want us to.
Even worse to trust official announcements - our Governments are corrupt and no longer represent the people.
I guess if everyone saw that, pressure may grow for media independence. At least we should all watch TV with the view that we should question everything we are told and question if that gives us the full picture. As you said, strangely you have seen very little anecdotal evidence of the other side in this new war - with Palestinians or those questioning the "war"/genocide -just emotional stuff to manipulate us in relation to Israeli, uncorroborated, experiences.
As things are now, the only chance you have to get an actual view is to look at multiple sources on the web - who provide actual sources - over stuff artificially created for a TV audience. Which much of it is. UKColumn.org is one of the few efforts I see to provide an honest daily news bulletin
Though very few of us have the time or inclination to do actual research on events. And why should we? We'd all like to think that we aren't constantly being lied to and manipulated [Post edited 10 Nov 2023 12:33]
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