| Mametz and The Swans 21:30 - Aug 14 with 11446 views | Lohengrin |
I'm trying to float the idea of renaming the stadium next Summer; rededicating it would probably be a better description, just for the season, to commemorate the centenary of the Battle of Mametz Wood.
I'm sure that most of you already know this, but for those who don't, July 10th 2016 will be one hundred years to the day since the 38th (Welsh) Division went on the offensive at The Battle of The Somme. In the van were the 14th Bn Welsh Regiment - The Swansea Pals - comprised of young boys from Swansea, Neath and Aberavon. Of the 676 boys engaged in the assault over 400 were to become casualties by nightfall.
Consider the enormity of that. Barely a family in western Glamorgan remained untouched by the events of July 10th. We'd have all had relatives there on The Somme. During the inter-war years the anniversary was marked annually in Swansea Bay as Mametz Memorial Day, now as the centenary rolls around we have the opportunity to repay a debt of honour in full.
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 09:26 - Aug 16 with 2999 views | jandyt |
| Mametz and The Swans on 00:17 - Aug 16 by Lohengrin |
Yes, mate. 2nd Bn SWB attacked Y Ravine as part of the 29th Division's disastrous offensive. It was a massacre. Wave after wave of boys were mown down without getting to within thirty yards of the German position. The whole ghastly episode lasted roughly five minutes from start to finish. Indeed the German commander was so sickened at the carnage he called for a truce to allow our dead and wounded to be retrieved
The poor Newfoundlanders were slaughtered before they'd even had a chance to reach their jumping off point. When you read the accounts left by the handful of survivors who "advanced with heads bowed as if against driving hail" you get an immediate sense of the impossibility of the task demanded of them. Wonder too at the calibre of men prepared to try.
* You can walk the old front line again now, Jan. You can stand beside the Danger Tree too. Everything is now gearing up for July of next year.
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I've been there 3or 4 times and naturally the Canadians concentrate on the efforts of the Newfoundlanders. The roll call before and after the attack is a sickening statistic.
Thanks for the info on the SWB as so often the Welsh lads gained an undeserved poor reputation following Mametz due to some senior officers finding a scapegoat for failures elsewhere. Fortunately this was resolved at Ypres the following year but also at the cost of horrendous losses.
I'm pleased that you can walk the battlefield again as I found that really educational and surprising when I first visited Beaumont Hamel. The Canadians do this kind of thing really well and the tunnels at Vimy are also well worth visiting although I assume you've been there already. I did go to the Canadian museum at Juno Beach a few weeks ago and that's another excellent visit with one of the most moving films I've ever seen. I must be getting softer as I'm getting older, but I do know I'd hate to see my son or his mates go through anything like that. |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 15:32 - Aug 17 with 2896 views | Lohengrin |
| Mametz and The Swans on 22:36 - Aug 14 by Pacemaker |
Totally agree with you and the heartbreaking documents in the Newfoundland museum would reduce anyone to tears.
My great uncle Cpl PJ Phillips MM Croix de Guerre served with the Welch Regt The Bantams and fought there and I had a very thorough document from the SW Borderers museum after my great uncle donated his medals following his peaceful death in the late 1970's.
He was only out there because the police and a few annoyed husbands were after him! He remained a chaaracter until the end and described his army days as the best days of his life.
I was too young at the time to really question it but he appeared to be unaffected and was a tearaway for most of his life without a care in the world as long as he had a drink and a lady he was happy. |
Proof positive there that squaddies haven't changed an awful lot down the years!  | |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 18:57 - Aug 17 with 2859 views | Flashberryjack |
| Mametz and The Swans on 22:36 - Aug 14 by Pacemaker |
Totally agree with you and the heartbreaking documents in the Newfoundland museum would reduce anyone to tears.
My great uncle Cpl PJ Phillips MM Croix de Guerre served with the Welch Regt The Bantams and fought there and I had a very thorough document from the SW Borderers museum after my great uncle donated his medals following his peaceful death in the late 1970's.
He was only out there because the police and a few annoyed husbands were after him! He remained a chaaracter until the end and described his army days as the best days of his life.
I was too young at the time to really question it but he appeared to be unaffected and was a tearaway for most of his life without a care in the world as long as he had a drink and a lady he was happy. |
The word "GREAT" seems very apt in the case of your "Great Uncle"
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| Mametz and The Swans on 13:24 - Aug 19 with 2727 views | snork44 |
| Mametz and The Swans on 00:17 - Aug 16 by Lohengrin |
Yes, mate. 2nd Bn SWB attacked Y Ravine as part of the 29th Division's disastrous offensive. It was a massacre. Wave after wave of boys were mown down without getting to within thirty yards of the German position. The whole ghastly episode lasted roughly five minutes from start to finish. Indeed the German commander was so sickened at the carnage he called for a truce to allow our dead and wounded to be retrieved
The poor Newfoundlanders were slaughtered before they'd even had a chance to reach their jumping off point. When you read the accounts left by the handful of survivors who "advanced with heads bowed as if against driving hail" you get an immediate sense of the impossibility of the task demanded of them. Wonder too at the calibre of men prepared to try.
* You can walk the old front line again now, Jan. You can stand beside the Danger Tree too. Everything is now gearing up for July of next year.
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Lohengrin,World War II was justified as that was a War to protect our way of life. The Great War was just an excuse to have a War. It was nothing but mass carnage of very young and very brave men. To climb out of those trenches took bravery and courage knowing you faced certain death, yet anyone who didn't was deemed a coward and shot. Yet the real Cowards were the Commanders like Haig and Kitchener who ordered the willfull slaughter of a generation of men miles away from the front lines. That to me is was as much of a War Crime as was perpetrated by the SS and Hitler during the final solution. |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 19:21 - Aug 19 with 2655 views | sherpajacob |
| Mametz and The Swans on 13:24 - Aug 19 by snork44 |
Lohengrin,World War II was justified as that was a War to protect our way of life. The Great War was just an excuse to have a War. It was nothing but mass carnage of very young and very brave men. To climb out of those trenches took bravery and courage knowing you faced certain death, yet anyone who didn't was deemed a coward and shot. Yet the real Cowards were the Commanders like Haig and Kitchener who ordered the willfull slaughter of a generation of men miles away from the front lines. That to me is was as much of a War Crime as was perpetrated by the SS and Hitler during the final solution. |
In 1939 Britain went to war in defence of polish freedom. In 1945 Poland was not free.
In 1914 Britain went to war in defence of belgium's freedom. In 1918 belgium was free. |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 23:20 - Aug 20 with 2609 views | Lohengrin |
| Mametz and The Swans on 13:50 - Aug 19 by jandyt |
I've been to Langemarck a couple of times and you're absolutely right about the German cemeteries. The statues are very effective and I find those burial grounds far more sombre than American, British/Canadian or French cemeteries. 50,000 burials at Langemarck in a relatively small space is quite thought provoking and brings the sacrifice of all sides into focus.
Likewise, the ossuary at Douamont is staggering! |
I've visited Douaumont as well, Jan. It's difficult to get your head around what you're looking at really, hard to take in. What is it, something like 130 or 140,000 remains of unidentified soldiers? That's about as sobering as it gets.
I went there first when I was in my early teens; you imagine you'll live forever at that age, invincible. That just horrified me, it still does. I suppose that's the whole intent. They were all somebody's son, father, sweetheart or husband reduced to trumpery.
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| Mametz and The Swans on 10:56 - Aug 21 with 2571 views | trampie |
Has blueytheblue been on this thread talking about the Middle East yet ?, what side were the majority of the boys he likes to align himself with alongside Perchy on in the Great War ? |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 11:18 - Aug 21 with 2560 views | perchrockjack |
Excellent thread and thank you Lohengrin; made me think.
Agree WWW1 a pitiful pitiless exercise fought mainly over the dying Ottoman Empire and our Balcan friends with their inter necine issues.
UTTERLY POINTLESS and ,for me, countless British kids were butchered for no real reason at all except for the Power AND standing of former colonial countries.
That men/boys from Canada and Anzac went thousands of miles to defend the often indefensible ,is deeply moving .
In an uncertain world, I class Aussies,Kiwis, Canucks as pre eminent as my country s friend and ally. |  |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 11:20 - Aug 21 with 2559 views | trampie |
If somebody asked me whether it was a good idea to support a name change to Mametz for the centenary I would say yes, where do I sign.
But if I was given a choice I would prefer the stadium to be called after Glyndwr, Dda, Llewellyn, Gwenllian etc.
Possibly a name fighting in the name and cause of Wales as opposed to fighting for the British Army, because if the Welsh in the British Army was ordered to take to the streets of Llanelli, the Rhondda, Merthyr etc against 'our' boys because the British wanted to quash some kind of perceived rebellion they would.
Welcome to the Owain Glyndwr Stadium or the 'Revenge for Gwenllian' Stadium, on second thoughts perhaps drop the revenge bit, Llewellyn the Great was more of a North Wales hero wasn't he, Dda's territory probably included Swansea, Glyndwr burned Swansea [as well as Cardiff] so perhaps Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd would be a good shout, the Welsh love the ladies and being reportedly beautiful can't harm and she took on all comers leading from the front in battle and redistributing from colonisers and invaders to the people.
Gwenllian lived and was active in this area, the battle around Swansea and the Gower where the enemy was routed at Carn Goch could make her a good shout for the name of the Stadium and no doubt the spoils of war were given to the locals by the beautiful Gwenllian. [Post edited 21 Aug 2015 17:43]
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| Mametz and The Swans on 22:00 - Aug 21 with 2481 views | jandyt |
| Mametz and The Swans on 23:20 - Aug 20 by Lohengrin |
I've visited Douaumont as well, Jan. It's difficult to get your head around what you're looking at really, hard to take in. What is it, something like 130 or 140,000 remains of unidentified soldiers? That's about as sobering as it gets.
I went there first when I was in my early teens; you imagine you'll live forever at that age, invincible. That just horrified me, it still does. I suppose that's the whole intent. They were all somebody's son, father, sweetheart or husband reduced to trumpery.
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If you're interested Loh, here's a gallery I made from various visits to the Western Front. I also have some of Normandy as well as other second war battlefields:
http://www.pbase.com/andrew_thomas/the_western_front | |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 21:30 - Aug 22 with 2444 views | Lohengrin |
Absolutely brilliant, Jan. Thanks for that. We seem to have been walking in each others footsteps!
I notice you've been to Serre and Sheffield Park. Have you read John Harris's Covenant With Death? Do try and get hold of a copy if you haven't, it's absolutely superb.
On the subject of books and The Western Front with it being the centenary of everything this next few years an amazing number of long, forgotten gems are finding their way back into print. I could probably sit here all night and reel off title after title but I'll hone in on just two I think you'll find of special interest being a visitor yourself. Stephen Graham's Challenge of the Dead (1920) and Henry Williamson's The Wet Flanders Plain (1928) are both available again. Both volumes relate highly personal tales of soldiers returning to France and Belgium in the decade after the war; in Graham's case just a few years after. Brilliantly written they are part travelogue, part a search for what? Closure? Redemption? I can't recommend them highly enough. | |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 23:47 - Aug 22 with 2336 views | jandyt |
| Mametz and The Swans on 21:30 - Aug 22 by Lohengrin |
Absolutely brilliant, Jan. Thanks for that. We seem to have been walking in each others footsteps!
I notice you've been to Serre and Sheffield Park. Have you read John Harris's Covenant With Death? Do try and get hold of a copy if you haven't, it's absolutely superb.
On the subject of books and The Western Front with it being the centenary of everything this next few years an amazing number of long, forgotten gems are finding their way back into print. I could probably sit here all night and reel off title after title but I'll hone in on just two I think you'll find of special interest being a visitor yourself. Stephen Graham's Challenge of the Dead (1920) and Henry Williamson's The Wet Flanders Plain (1928) are both available again. Both volumes relate highly personal tales of soldiers returning to France and Belgium in the decade after the war; in Graham's case just a few years after. Brilliantly written they are part travelogue, part a search for what? Closure? Redemption? I can't recommend them highly enough. |
Thanks for that Loh, I'll look out for those. I have read Jonh Masefield's the Old Front Line, but not for a few years so it's probably due a re-read. Cheers | |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 22:15 - Aug 23 with 2305 views | Lohengrin |
| Mametz and The Swans on 23:47 - Aug 22 by jandyt |
Thanks for that Loh, I'll look out for those. I have read Jonh Masefield's the Old Front Line, but not for a few years so it's probably due a re-read. Cheers |
An admirer of John Masefield? You'll be pleased to know, Jan, that all four of Masefield's books on The Great War have now been collected into a single volume. I saw a copy in Waterstone's a few years back and picked it up. I actually had three of the original four anyway, an old neighbour was kind enough to give them to me when I was a boy.
It's a shame he's not much read nowadays, a real shame that a former Poet Laureate has become all but forgotten. It's not my idea of progress. | |
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| Mametz and The Swans on 21:27 - Aug 24 with 2257 views | jandyt |
| Mametz and The Swans on 22:15 - Aug 23 by Lohengrin |
An admirer of John Masefield? You'll be pleased to know, Jan, that all four of Masefield's books on The Great War have now been collected into a single volume. I saw a copy in Waterstone's a few years back and picked it up. I actually had three of the original four anyway, an old neighbour was kind enough to give them to me when I was a boy.
It's a shame he's not much read nowadays, a real shame that a former Poet Laureate has become all but forgotten. It's not my idea of progress. |
From memory, although the book is written as prose, it reads and feels like poetry. A very talented man with superb descriptive powers. | |
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