| Millwall fans. 17:35 - Dec 5 with 69675 views | Paddyhoops |
They booed the players loudly as they took the knee.
What a classy bunch they are.
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| Millwall fans. on 11:45 - Dec 8 with 2155 views | SheffieldHoop |
Here you go Bazz, this should cover it pretty well  https://bfy.tw/PsBy |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 11:47 - Dec 8 with 2146 views | Juzzie |
| Millwall fans. on 09:49 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
yep, here's a grenade to throw onto this fire in a skip: if Millwall fans boo the show of solidarity tonight, I think our players should walk off and not play the game. Yes, even if it means sacrificing 3 points. |
Millwall fans will do that if it guarantees them 3 points. I agree with the sentiment but we must not let what ever happens means Millwall's fans 'win', in whatever matter that may be.
Tricky. Personally, we should do what we feel is right and if Millwall fans still boo, it will be entirely on them. They cannot try and twist it back to their club or ours. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 11:53 - Dec 8 with 2106 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I'm not interested in what Google think a Marxist is, i'm interested in what you think a Marxist is, seeing as you are opposed to them? |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:00 - Dec 8 with 2085 views | bakerloo8 |
| Millwall fans. on 11:14 - Dec 8 by Konk |
Well, as far as possible, I try and buy everything and use services on my local high street, because one of the reasons we moved here, was because we wanted a thriving high street nearby. If there's something we can't get there - like, a telly or something - then I'm probably looking at a big chain - so I'm not boycotting chains, I'm simply choosing to spend my money in my community where possible. Some things work out cheaper in the independents, something's are a bit more expensive, but you generally get excellent, knowledgeable service, your money is staying in the local economy, and in a few cases, we're supporting the businesses of either neighbours or parents at our son's school. 80% of the people who renovated our home lived within a mile of our house. It seems to me that it's in our own interests to spend our money in our local community.
I don't think black people are going to pay over the odds for poor products/service just because the business owner is black, but by proactively seeking out black businesses, they might discover some gems that they then continue supporting, knowing that they're helping people from similar backgrounds, who in turn are more inclined to give other black prospective employees and businesses a chance, when others might not. Seems fair enough to me. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 11:16]
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But just turn that around. White people actively seeking out white owned business to the detriment of black owned businesses. That's racist right? |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:04 - Dec 8 with 2074 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Millwall fans. on 11:47 - Dec 8 by Juzzie |
Millwall fans will do that if it guarantees them 3 points. I agree with the sentiment but we must not let what ever happens means Millwall's fans 'win', in whatever matter that may be.
Tricky. Personally, we should do what we feel is right and if Millwall fans still boo, it will be entirely on them. They cannot try and twist it back to their club or ours. |
"Personally, we should do what we feel is right and if Millwall fans still boo, it will be entirely on them. They cannot try and twist it back to their club or ours."
Agreed, and it sounds to me as if that's exactly what we are doing. |  |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:13 - Dec 8 with 2037 views | Antti_Heinola |
Let's lighten the mood for the Bazza/Sheff argument.
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| Millwall fans. on 12:16 - Dec 8 with 2021 views | tidydarts |
| Millwall fans. on 12:00 - Dec 8 by bakerloo8 |
But just turn that around. White people actively seeking out white owned business to the detriment of black owned businesses. That's racist right? |
Have a real hard think about how white people in this country and how black people in this country have been treated over the last year, five years, 100 years.
Then think about whether it would actually be racist
The answer is obviously no | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:17 - Dec 8 with 2008 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 11:53 - Dec 8 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'm not interested in what Google think a Marxist is, i'm interested in what you think a Marxist is, seeing as you are opposed to them? |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:58]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:20 - Dec 8 with 1996 views | LythamR |
| Millwall fans. on 12:00 - Dec 8 by bakerloo8 |
But just turn that around. White people actively seeking out white owned business to the detriment of black owned businesses. That's racist right? |
Black people are in a minority and face more challenges in running a business in this country, that bit of extra community support can be a real help, the same has always gone for other minorities wether they be Greek, Turkish, Polish, South Asian etc etc
For a British white person to actively choose to walk past a minority owned business to choose to buy the same product at the same price from a more distant white British run business could be seen as a racist action.
Racism predominantly effects minorities.
The same thing happens in reverse in communities around the world |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:20 - Dec 8 with 1993 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 12:16 - Dec 8 by tidydarts |
Have a real hard think about how white people in this country and how black people in this country have been treated over the last year, five years, 100 years.
Then think about whether it would actually be racist
The answer is obviously no |
Stop treating black people like shit then mate. And stop letting your peers do it. It's very simple. It sounds as if you might be the problem.
Can't help but feel people are undoing the last "100 years" progress in this area. And what's most galling is that it's primarily white middle class people doing it to the detrement of the working classes. I am personally sick of it. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 16:11]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:30 - Dec 8 with 1959 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 12:20 - Dec 8 by LythamR |
Black people are in a minority and face more challenges in running a business in this country, that bit of extra community support can be a real help, the same has always gone for other minorities wether they be Greek, Turkish, Polish, South Asian etc etc
For a British white person to actively choose to walk past a minority owned business to choose to buy the same product at the same price from a more distant white British run business could be seen as a racist action.
Racism predominantly effects minorities.
The same thing happens in reverse in communities around the world |
"The same thing happens in reverse in communities around the world"
This is also true. I'm not going to go into detail on my own experience of it, but for a breif period I went to high school in Jamaica and the racism I faced was I imagine similar to what black kids would have experienced here in the 60s. White people are not uniquely racist. When people say Britain is one of the least racaist countries in the world, it's because it's true, it is. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:35 - Dec 8 with 1932 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Millwall fans. on 12:17 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:58]
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Marxist is a confusing label to use in relation to the BLM movement and i’m just suspicious you don’t know what it means. Why is a Economic theory being used as a slur?
You are right, I don’t know you or your politics, but I haven’t said otherwise have I? I definitely don’t think everyone who disagrees with me are BNP or Right Wing.
If you are against the BLM and the knee taking, fine. But it might be useful to your point if you can justify why you are using a completely out of place term like Marxist, otherwise it will look like you are parroting a line from someone else without really thinking. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:36 - Dec 8 with 1934 views | tidydarts |
| Millwall fans. on 12:20 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
Stop treating black people like shit then mate. And stop letting your peers do it. It's very simple. It sounds as if you might be the problem.
Can't help but feel people are undoing the last "100 years" progress in this area. And what's most galling is that it's primarily white middle class people doing it to the detrement of the working classes. I am personally sick of it. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 16:11]
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Your experience of how racist you think this country is doesn't diminish the fact that black people are NINE times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/27/black-people-nine-times-more-lik
I don't call that progress, do you? | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:41 - Dec 8 with 1906 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 12:13 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
Let's lighten the mood for the Bazza/Sheff argument.
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. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:04]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:42 - Dec 8 with 1898 views | SheffieldHoop |
Go and find some police friends. Go and tell them. You're telling the wrong crowd mate. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 12:43]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 13:04 - Dec 8 with 1782 views | QPR_Jim |
| Millwall fans. on 12:41 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:04]
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"The most racist thing we've experienced was a black guy in Croydon yelling at her in the street that she should not be with a white bloke." That and Hull and Millwall fans doing monkey chants at black supporters. We might be better than a lot of places but it sounds from your own comments there is still some room for improvement so why not try to achieve more? |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 13:08 - Dec 8 with 1761 views | Gloucs_R |
How has this thread lasted 11 pages? |  |
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| Millwall fans. on 13:14 - Dec 8 with 1735 views | Northernr |
| Millwall fans. on 13:08 - Dec 8 by Gloucs_R |
How has this thread lasted 11 pages? |
It won't be lasting much longer if it continues its descent into a slanging match and accusing people of being this and that.
Can people just grow the fck up and shut the fck up? Please. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 13:23 - Dec 8 with 1687 views | silverbirch |
Have only just realised this is live on sky. I’m feeling for our players at the moment. Millwall will be bonded by this and roared on by their fans. Our players are likely to be worrying about the reaction that either kneeling or not kneeling will receive. Some may feel let down by others not doing what they do. I really hope they all kneel and it binds them.
I’d like to say that in the grander scheme the result and the performance don’t matter. But in the face of what the Millwall fans have done and how their club has reacted maybe it matters more than ever. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 13:33 - Dec 8 with 1652 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 13:04 - Dec 8 by QPR_Jim |
"The most racist thing we've experienced was a black guy in Croydon yelling at her in the street that she should not be with a white bloke." That and Hull and Millwall fans doing monkey chants at black supporters. We might be better than a lot of places but it sounds from your own comments there is still some room for improvement so why not try to achieve more? |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:04]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 13:39 - Dec 8 with 1622 views | BrianMcCarthy |
"This is why protest movements that go around under the guise of ending inequality, division, racism actually end up creating more division, more inequality, and thus more racism. But anyway, who gives a toss what people who actually live this stuff think. Back to your middle class bubbles."
I understand that point of view, but you're also describing MLK's protest movement which was successful by any measure.
I'm of Irish descent, 50, born in England and brought up in both Countries. I've experienced racism towards me and towards friends of varying backgrounds. I have absolutely no idea how to end racism, but I think we have to listen to all points of view and we have to be wary of definitive statements. | |
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| Millwall fans. on 13:51 - Dec 8 with 1568 views | QPR_Jim |
| Millwall fans. on 13:33 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:04]
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So many questions.
Did being white in Jamaica actually disadvantage you or was it just some hurtful names? Were you more likely to get stopped by police for example?
"But anyway, who gives a toss what people who actually live this stuff think" - I'm confused should I care about what you think or what the black players who want to take the knee think?
Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is middle class, a marxist or both? | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 13:56 - Dec 8 with 1549 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 13:39 - Dec 8 by BrianMcCarthy |
"This is why protest movements that go around under the guise of ending inequality, division, racism actually end up creating more division, more inequality, and thus more racism. But anyway, who gives a toss what people who actually live this stuff think. Back to your middle class bubbles."
I understand that point of view, but you're also describing MLK's protest movement which was successful by any measure.
I'm of Irish descent, 50, born in England and brought up in both Countries. I've experienced racism towards me and towards friends of varying backgrounds. I have absolutely no idea how to end racism, but I think we have to listen to all points of view and we have to be wary of definitive statements. |
Not sure 2020 Britain is really that comparable with 50's/60's America. Or even Modern America. I've been across the pond a few times in the last couple of years and understand the case for BLM there to a far greater degree than I do here.
I'm also Irish.....And Scottish, English, Argentinian......Technically. But really, when I travel for example, I'm just British. And I'm happy with that. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:01 - Dec 8 with 1527 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Millwall fans. on 13:23 - Dec 8 by silverbirch |
Have only just realised this is live on sky. I’m feeling for our players at the moment. Millwall will be bonded by this and roared on by their fans. Our players are likely to be worrying about the reaction that either kneeling or not kneeling will receive. Some may feel let down by others not doing what they do. I really hope they all kneel and it binds them.
I’d like to say that in the grander scheme the result and the performance don’t matter. But in the face of what the Millwall fans have done and how their club has reacted maybe it matters more than ever. |
Think there’s a good chance it will help us on the pitch if anything. Their ‘element’ of fans will revel in it being on Sky and may well double down on it. It’s not like they’ve cared about reputation before. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 14:02 - Dec 8 with 1516 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Millwall fans. on 13:33 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:04]
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Really don't want to wade into this discussion, but one thing I would say is that a large part of the anti-racist movement in this country is not really about abuse, be it verbal or physical. It's about everyday experience, a deeper racism embedded in society that is not even necessarily conscious racism. The example mentioned many times here is the number of black coaches and managers in the English game. Steve McQueen has talked about how when he filmed his latest project in the UK finding black actors was not difficult - but finding a crew that was more representative was extremely difficult, almost impossible. Don't know if you have kids, but have a look at how many kids books have black characters or are about black characters or written or designed by black writers or illustrators. I can tell you - it is very, very, very few. And it's certainly not representative of this nation. I've said this before, but look around at our home games when we have fans - it's not representative of London, is it? It's better than it was 25 years ago, but walk about in Shepherd's Bush and then walk into the KPFS and there's a marked difference.
I don't think publishers, football chairmen or TV companies sit there thinking 'I'm only employing whites'. It is, in that buzzword for this year, more an unconscious bias. It is far deeper issue than just 'tolerance' or not shouting abuse. I think what happened over the last few years was that shouting racist abuse at football (at most clubs) became socially unacceptable. But then over the last couple of years, there was a definite increase. That shows that attitudes never really went away, they were just in hiding, kept indoors. And now I fear they're being encouraged out again under a guise of a reaction against 'wokeness', or calling it 'politics' or 'another opinion'.
You know, Millwall fans embracing their own black players means absolutely nothing. Out and out Chelsea racists have published stuff (can't remember where I read it now, years ago) about how when they signed Desailly, they booed him like anything, until they sw how tough he was, and then they decided he was 'just like them' and took them to their loveable hearts. And on top of that, I think it's fair to say that no one ever said it was all Millwall fans. Clearly, they're not a fanbase who all think alike, anymore than our fanbase thinks alike (as this thread amply demonstrates!). [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 14:05]
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