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Ok recently I’ve seen a lot of posts on here about officials, and their decisions etc. And as someone who’s a ref myself I’d love to hear what people on here expect of officials, as well as if any of them can answer my questions below? So I’d be interested to see of what people say in response to these questions.
Firstly, what is it that people expect from officials? A 100% perfect game, a 90% perfect… or just the major decisions? Like what do you expect VAR to get involved in and how it should be edited/used in the future.
Secondly, why do soo many think that the officiating abroad is soo much better than it is in the UK? Is it because of the champions league, and the officials in that, or is it because they watch the foreign leagues so see the officials in them. (as I myself have watched LaLiga, Siri’s A, Bundesliga etc, and the officiating mistakes they make in them can be just as baffling as some of the ones in the prem).
And lastly why don’t fans realise that it’s not going to get any better with how officials are currently treated. As everyone loves to criticise them when they do mess up (and even many times when they don’t mess up), yet no one praises them when they do well. As they get loads of abuse and threats at all sorts of levels, yet get very little (if any at all praise), whilst many other officials in other sports get a lot more respect compared to them, so why not football? As if we keep giving officials abuse, only less will come through (as I myself know loads of former officials that all stopped because of the abuse they got, meaning that their was fewer and fewer refs around to get to the top), as many lower leagues have referee droughts. Yet all those that abuse them, never seem to turn around and do it themselves. So why is that, and is not the way we treat them only making things worse?
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 08:48 - Mar 22 by ElijahK
Not really no, as if the ref stays where he is and has loads of players around his then he can’t necessarily see what’s going on in the background and players are more likely to do stupid things to the ref, whilst taking a few steps back allows them to always keep a distance between them and the players, so that nothing major happens. And the reason why I said it’s got no real connection to the game is because it’s got nothing to do with the flow of the game (aka it’s something that’s not really allowed anywhere, anytime, like violent conduct, dissent, aggressive attitude etc, as they’re not what managers want players to get booked for/making a difference to the result, whilst denying and obvious goalscoring opportunity or stopping a promising attack etc will make a difference to the result and is part of the flow of the game) whilst other cautionable offences do. And yes players do try to influence a referee’s decision, but at a high level (aka EFL/Prem) it makes no difference as only VAR can really change anything and I’d it doesn’t, what the ref gives is what happens. So unless they cross a ref before a card comes out then it never really makes a difference at the higher levels
I totally understood your points but disagree. Football refs appear weak and sometimes or manipulated by players with little good assistance from other officials. Rugby (and other sports) on the other hand has refs in control well supported by the var and other officials. Time for football to catch up or it will continue to have questions of bias and worst still corruption.
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 12:07 - Mar 22 with 720 views
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 10:58 - Mar 22 by Bazza
I totally understood your points but disagree. Football refs appear weak and sometimes or manipulated by players with little good assistance from other officials. Rugby (and other sports) on the other hand has refs in control well supported by the var and other officials. Time for football to catch up or it will continue to have questions of bias and worst still corruption.
I've got to agree with this. Video refereeing is used throughout sport to support referees yet in the richest football league in the world it doesn't work - you have to really ask yourself why not. Also linesmen (or if you prefer assistant referees) seem to me to be absolutely redundant - they always make decisions AFTER the referee. Maybe they should just be replaced by cameras?
I'm not sure whether individual referees are consciously corrupt but the system they operate in is. There appears to be no transparency or accountability when it comes to refereeing. In my industry, I get reviews after every single client interaction based on client/customer feedback - I aim for (and get) 9/10 as a matter of course. I have rarely seen reviews of referees that come anywhere close to this and, to be honest, if my work was to the standard of Mike Dean, for example, I would be on benefits! The very idea that he is giving up on-pitch refereeing but just doing VAR is so laughable it beggars belief.
Elijah pointed to his performance "not being the centre of attention on Sunday". This doesn't mean that he had a good game. Three examples that I can remember offhand (I was in Kingsland North) are:
1) He missed a clear handball; 2) He got in the way twice - suggesting his reading of the game is poor; 3) He was very fussy about a City free kick being re-taken but still allowed it to be re-taken many yards from where it should have been.
The problem is that poor decisions have a significant ramification in the Premier League, where the money/stakes are so high. This doesn't exist in the amateur game so if you make mistakes it doesn't really matter so much.
The other issue is that it is not so long ago that we regularly produced some of the best referees in the world, who would be considered for World Cup finals etc. The fact that the only English referee at the last World Cup was a linesman from New Zealand shows how far the standard has fallen.
I appreciate some of the points about respect in the lower reaches of the game and I think the poor standard at the top and in society in general are at the core of this. I also appreciate how hard refereeing is.
The FA also has the charge of "bringing the game into disrepute". I have seen players and managers regularly charged for saying things about referees but I have never seen referees charged for their conduct etc.
I also appreciate your need to come on and defend your fellow referees but I don't think you're changing anyone's mind because of what we see week in and week out. Most people on here aren't stupid and we see what we see. There is a phrase when it comes to pricing: "perception is reality" and I think there is an element of this when it comes to refereeing.
I also wish you showed as much passion defending Saints as you show for defending referees - this is a Saints website after all.
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 00:13 - Mar 23 with 679 views
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 12:07 - Mar 22 by PaleRider
I've got to agree with this. Video refereeing is used throughout sport to support referees yet in the richest football league in the world it doesn't work - you have to really ask yourself why not. Also linesmen (or if you prefer assistant referees) seem to me to be absolutely redundant - they always make decisions AFTER the referee. Maybe they should just be replaced by cameras?
I'm not sure whether individual referees are consciously corrupt but the system they operate in is. There appears to be no transparency or accountability when it comes to refereeing. In my industry, I get reviews after every single client interaction based on client/customer feedback - I aim for (and get) 9/10 as a matter of course. I have rarely seen reviews of referees that come anywhere close to this and, to be honest, if my work was to the standard of Mike Dean, for example, I would be on benefits! The very idea that he is giving up on-pitch refereeing but just doing VAR is so laughable it beggars belief.
Elijah pointed to his performance "not being the centre of attention on Sunday". This doesn't mean that he had a good game. Three examples that I can remember offhand (I was in Kingsland North) are:
1) He missed a clear handball; 2) He got in the way twice - suggesting his reading of the game is poor; 3) He was very fussy about a City free kick being re-taken but still allowed it to be re-taken many yards from where it should have been.
The problem is that poor decisions have a significant ramification in the Premier League, where the money/stakes are so high. This doesn't exist in the amateur game so if you make mistakes it doesn't really matter so much.
The other issue is that it is not so long ago that we regularly produced some of the best referees in the world, who would be considered for World Cup finals etc. The fact that the only English referee at the last World Cup was a linesman from New Zealand shows how far the standard has fallen.
I appreciate some of the points about respect in the lower reaches of the game and I think the poor standard at the top and in society in general are at the core of this. I also appreciate how hard refereeing is.
The FA also has the charge of "bringing the game into disrepute". I have seen players and managers regularly charged for saying things about referees but I have never seen referees charged for their conduct etc.
I also appreciate your need to come on and defend your fellow referees but I don't think you're changing anyone's mind because of what we see week in and week out. Most people on here aren't stupid and we see what we see. There is a phrase when it comes to pricing: "perception is reality" and I think there is an element of this when it comes to refereeing.
I also wish you showed as much passion defending Saints as you show for defending referees - this is a Saints website after all.
Well the reasons why VAR and such work soo much better in other sports is due to many factors. As football is a low points scoring game, whilst rugby, cricket, tennis etc are all high scoring games meaning that VAR is less important for things like points and such. Also in those sports, most of what VAR and such is used for is very much black and white, meaning that there’s no debating, as in cricket it ether hits the wickets or not, and tennis it’s ether in or out etc, whilst in football it’s quite often down to opinions to a certain degree. And also those sports have had the tech for soo much longer, meaning that they’ve had the time to adapt what it’s used for and how it’s used. So there is quite a few reasons as to why VAR and such is used better in other sports rather than football.
Well refs do get reviews ourselves, which are called club marks, and are out of 100 (with the average for the Wessex league ref being 73). But this is more important for lower league officials, as there’s always observers (as well as video footage) for championship and premier league games (so it’s irrelevant there as they just go over all decisions in a game and look at them from a neutrals point of view, rather than a biased club one), whilst for lower leagues it’s based on the club marks as their isn’t as much observations. But in your business it’s based on customers to make your money, and you just try to make them happy to a certain degree, whilst refs can’t always do that and just have to be fair. But why Mike deans just doing VAR and such I don’t know and can’t really say much on.
And with Mike Dean, yeah I agree he wasn’t amazing, and not the greatest, but at the same time his performance made no difference to the outcome of the game, as what you’ve named (bar the handball, but that’s only as I don’t recall it/didn’t see it) I completely agree with, but it’s better than getting major decisions completely wrong like we’ve all seen recently.
And poor decisions do matter just as much in lower devisions as they’ve got less money to spend, so arguably can be just as important (as the only major difference I can think of is the removal of history from a club and that it will affect more as the higher teams have more fans). And sorry but you keep bringing up about the last World Cup as an example which is just complete BS as I’ve already said before as they weren’t allowed in it due to their lack of knowledge/experience with VAR. As what your saying is basically no different to saying England are a poor football team as they’ve never won AFCON! As there still are some decent English/PL refs, it’s just people only ever highlight the negatives, and we now have more tech and such can show where they may have messed up a lot easier than before, as well as it being harder due to simulation, less physicality etc (as well as many more arrogant fans criticising officials for getting things right (like how Mings got a yellow in their game last weekend, which was due to the follow through, yet many idiots on social media say it’s perfectly fine as he got the ball, which just shows how little they know about the LOTG)), and refs don’t get charged as they don’t go around verbally disrespecting players/coaches.
And in all fairness when refs mess up, I do come on here and admit that they got it wrong, but of course when they’re right but people are saying their not, there’s gonna be more arguing over those situations rather than ones where I just say that they messed up on. Also I do defend saints quite a bit, especially Ralph, as I’ve only been against him like once throughout his whole time here, so I don’t get why your thinking I don’t defend Saints,
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 00:13 - Mar 23 by ElijahK
Well the reasons why VAR and such work soo much better in other sports is due to many factors. As football is a low points scoring game, whilst rugby, cricket, tennis etc are all high scoring games meaning that VAR is less important for things like points and such. Also in those sports, most of what VAR and such is used for is very much black and white, meaning that there’s no debating, as in cricket it ether hits the wickets or not, and tennis it’s ether in or out etc, whilst in football it’s quite often down to opinions to a certain degree. And also those sports have had the tech for soo much longer, meaning that they’ve had the time to adapt what it’s used for and how it’s used. So there is quite a few reasons as to why VAR and such is used better in other sports rather than football.
Well refs do get reviews ourselves, which are called club marks, and are out of 100 (with the average for the Wessex league ref being 73). But this is more important for lower league officials, as there’s always observers (as well as video footage) for championship and premier league games (so it’s irrelevant there as they just go over all decisions in a game and look at them from a neutrals point of view, rather than a biased club one), whilst for lower leagues it’s based on the club marks as their isn’t as much observations. But in your business it’s based on customers to make your money, and you just try to make them happy to a certain degree, whilst refs can’t always do that and just have to be fair. But why Mike deans just doing VAR and such I don’t know and can’t really say much on.
And with Mike Dean, yeah I agree he wasn’t amazing, and not the greatest, but at the same time his performance made no difference to the outcome of the game, as what you’ve named (bar the handball, but that’s only as I don’t recall it/didn’t see it) I completely agree with, but it’s better than getting major decisions completely wrong like we’ve all seen recently.
And poor decisions do matter just as much in lower devisions as they’ve got less money to spend, so arguably can be just as important (as the only major difference I can think of is the removal of history from a club and that it will affect more as the higher teams have more fans). And sorry but you keep bringing up about the last World Cup as an example which is just complete BS as I’ve already said before as they weren’t allowed in it due to their lack of knowledge/experience with VAR. As what your saying is basically no different to saying England are a poor football team as they’ve never won AFCON! As there still are some decent English/PL refs, it’s just people only ever highlight the negatives, and we now have more tech and such can show where they may have messed up a lot easier than before, as well as it being harder due to simulation, less physicality etc (as well as many more arrogant fans criticising officials for getting things right (like how Mings got a yellow in their game last weekend, which was due to the follow through, yet many idiots on social media say it’s perfectly fine as he got the ball, which just shows how little they know about the LOTG)), and refs don’t get charged as they don’t go around verbally disrespecting players/coaches.
And in all fairness when refs mess up, I do come on here and admit that they got it wrong, but of course when they’re right but people are saying their not, there’s gonna be more arguing over those situations rather than ones where I just say that they messed up on. Also I do defend saints quite a bit, especially Ralph, as I’ve only been against him like once throughout his whole time here, so I don’t get why your thinking I don’t defend Saints,
[Post edited 23 Mar 2022 0:13]
'whilst in football it’s quite often down to opinions to a certain degree' If this is correct (I'm not sure other sports are any different, eg Rugby) then surely this must mean that the football rules are not clear enough (eg handball) or VAR is not being fully used?
Another question for you as referee; why are penalties sometimes given to players who are tripped but have already lost control of the ball particularly when it's over the goal line?
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 16:50 - Mar 23 with 608 views
My personal opinion is that we want to see consistency, transparency and accountability.
If a payer is off form, he gets dropped. A player, manager, owner can be asked about how a club is run etc. A manager is always accountable for results.
Why are refs not the same?
They make a handsome living from the game but are sheltered from poor form, explaining their decisions or taking the blame for wrong ones.
There is no reason for that.
And all this hidden stuff means that fans don't understand what is going on nor the interpretation of the laws (all fans think they know the rules of the game but very few have ever read them or tried to apply them in a match). All they see is a ref get it wrong and turn out again the next week.
Just explain decisions and sometimes, be human and say "I got that wrong".
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 17:07 - Mar 23 with 600 views
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 10:36 - Mar 23 by Bazza
'whilst in football it’s quite often down to opinions to a certain degree' If this is correct (I'm not sure other sports are any different, eg Rugby) then surely this must mean that the football rules are not clear enough (eg handball) or VAR is not being fully used?
Another question for you as referee; why are penalties sometimes given to players who are tripped but have already lost control of the ball particularly when it's over the goal line?
Well not really no, as there will always be grey areas for non black and white incidents, meaning that they will simply be down to opinions (which won’t be a clear and obvious error and therefore VAR shouldn’t get involved, which im sure it doesn’t in other sports).
And I’m a little confused by what your questions trying to ask?…
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 16:50 - Mar 23 by saint901
My personal opinion is that we want to see consistency, transparency and accountability.
If a payer is off form, he gets dropped. A player, manager, owner can be asked about how a club is run etc. A manager is always accountable for results.
Why are refs not the same?
They make a handsome living from the game but are sheltered from poor form, explaining their decisions or taking the blame for wrong ones.
There is no reason for that.
And all this hidden stuff means that fans don't understand what is going on nor the interpretation of the laws (all fans think they know the rules of the game but very few have ever read them or tried to apply them in a match). All they see is a ref get it wrong and turn out again the next week.
Just explain decisions and sometimes, be human and say "I got that wrong".
That’s not completely true as many of the less famous refs (aka not Mike dean, Froend, Moss etc) do get dropped to the championship and such when they don’t perform well enough, and even then they may have gotten like 99% of decisions correct in a game, but that 1% that they didn’t get correct was a pen/major decision, which fans/coaches/players etc may think ruined the whole game, but the FA doesn’t necessarily look at it in the same way. And reds may admit they’re wrong, but they’ll only tell the players/coaches who if they don’t say anything in the interviews, then won’t know, but even then, them apologising won’t make a difference to what’s happened. But at the same time, I do agree/get that maybe they should say/explain their decisions but that comes with that mic proposal and such (high I’ve heard a few high refs say they think will come).
What is the criteria? Where are the benchmarks? Why is this not available to clubs, managers, fans?
There is a feeling that there is much going on behind closed doors and that is a recipe that allows a bitter taste in the fans' mouths.
There should be scope for an honest conversation between the clubs and refs - in the open - where a ref can be asked about certain decisions and perceived/actual bias, without the manager getting a fine and a slap on the wrist.
The FA needs to be less protective of refs. We know that they are human and make errors, are biased (subconsciously) and are let down by VAR (which is a confusing mess presently), so why fine managers for saying so?
If ref reports and performance ratings are kept secret and known only to the FA and the ref, that's a recipe for a few dodgy decisions in the next match involving a club who criticised them, because nobody else knows.
You're doing a great job here ElijahK in defending the refs and you have admitted that some are poor and are demoted etc. However, until there can be an open and honest discussion between adults about refs, preferably one that fans can see and understand, i.e. in the open, there will always be a lingering mistrust between fans and refs.
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 09:08 - Mar 24 by saint901
But who determines "not performed well enough"?
What is the criteria? Where are the benchmarks? Why is this not available to clubs, managers, fans?
There is a feeling that there is much going on behind closed doors and that is a recipe that allows a bitter taste in the fans' mouths.
There should be scope for an honest conversation between the clubs and refs - in the open - where a ref can be asked about certain decisions and perceived/actual bias, without the manager getting a fine and a slap on the wrist.
The FA needs to be less protective of refs. We know that they are human and make errors, are biased (subconsciously) and are let down by VAR (which is a confusing mess presently), so why fine managers for saying so?
If ref reports and performance ratings are kept secret and known only to the FA and the ref, that's a recipe for a few dodgy decisions in the next match involving a club who criticised them, because nobody else knows.
You're doing a great job here ElijahK in defending the refs and you have admitted that some are poor and are demoted etc. However, until there can be an open and honest discussion between adults about refs, preferably one that fans can see and understand, i.e. in the open, there will always be a lingering mistrust between fans and refs.
There is criteria (which is usually based on 3 main areas of Match control, Usage of the LOTG and positioning, that determines your observer marks and then club marks are just done by the club) but unless your some ref/FA worker your not really gonna know about it, as I’m sure most is available to the average person it’s just they don’t look it up/keep up to date with it all.
Ok this whole discussion thing I get, but still won’t solve much as 99% of incidents, it’s pretty clear what the reds given it for, it’s just always of whether it was correct or not, so all these discussions would do is cause arguments between officials and coaches, as for your grey area/orange card offences, there will always be debate for those, as the ones where they did mess up, well also 99% of the time, you can tell that they did, and don’t need them to admit it to realise it. And why managers get fined is because the FA have to show consistency, as you’ve had managers in the past go onto the press and complain about officials who did their job perfectly fine, but still criticise them, so deserve fines, but as they do that, they then need to done those that complain about officials who had less good games.
And no actually the ref doesn’t even now the club marks he’s given unless the clubs told him personally (which only ever happened once to me after what was probably the best game of my life (hence why the coach told me that he was gonna give me a 96/100)) but they do get to see their averages every quarter of the season. But the officiating marks they do know as they also go over the matches and every decision they made in it with an observer.
And thanks, but yeah I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there as until the fans/coaches/players realise what it’s like being on the referee side of things, then we won’t be moving on that far with the officiating of football
"And thanks, but yeah I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there as until the fans/coaches/players realise what it’s like being on the referee side of things, then we won’t be moving on that far with the officiating of football"
In a nutshell you've summed up the problem - it's everyone else's fault but the referees! This is exactly the line that the FA, PGMOL etc. take, so it is no surprise that the standard has been deteriorating over the years. It also fails to give credit to the vast majority of fans/coaches/players etc. who DO realise that it is a hard job but referees really don't help their cause by the lack of transparency and accountability.
Change has to be driven by those in charge of the game and officiating and until this blinkered, arrogant attitude changes there isn't really any point discussing improvement and, in my opinion, it is only a matter of time before a referee gets seriously injured.
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 12:30 - Mar 25 with 495 views
There has to be an honest and open debate and all sides need to acknowledge that no game will ever be refereeed perfectly.
Presently the reaction from serving refs and the entities that protect them (PGMOL, EPL, EFL, FA, etc) is too reactionary.
Any (and I mean any) criticism is met with fines or silence.
That's just not good enough and creates and reinforces the mistrust between fans and refs.
Fans are biased but most, after the passion of the game, would probably agree that the ref got 95% of the decisions right. And that is the position of all except the most myopic of supporters. VAR is a joke at the moment and too inconsistent to be any help in improving refs (in fact I think it makes refs more cautious about the @big@ decisions).
There needs to be a long term strategy as well. Refs at kids level need to be protected from pushy (aggressive) parents. (I've abandoned games at under 12 level for this reason fearing for my own, the players and other spectators' safety).
Until work is done at that level we will not see a flow of junior refs coming into the equation. Instead we see those who are too thick skinned or arrogant to take on board what is sometime justified criticism, into the non league and eventually league matches.
If you have been schooled into being deaf to criticism and @learn@ only from fellow refs who have had the same training, you're never going to change.
So the whole system needs reform. And that reform needs to recognise the culture within referee groups and between refs and players, clubs and fans.
I watch video's of refs being attacked by players, club officials and fans and almost always this is a result of partisan feelings. I do think though that better and transparent communication would stop a good proportion of those attacks.
Refs can own and control this reform - SO WHY AREN'T THEY?
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What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 14:30 - Mar 25 with 480 views
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 10:10 - Mar 25 by PaleRider
"And thanks, but yeah I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there as until the fans/coaches/players realise what it’s like being on the referee side of things, then we won’t be moving on that far with the officiating of football"
In a nutshell you've summed up the problem - it's everyone else's fault but the referees! This is exactly the line that the FA, PGMOL etc. take, so it is no surprise that the standard has been deteriorating over the years. It also fails to give credit to the vast majority of fans/coaches/players etc. who DO realise that it is a hard job but referees really don't help their cause by the lack of transparency and accountability.
Change has to be driven by those in charge of the game and officiating and until this blinkered, arrogant attitude changes there isn't really any point discussing improvement and, in my opinion, it is only a matter of time before a referee gets seriously injured.
I think you’ve misunderstood what I meant by the last part I wrote. As I wrote that part about what your proposing (as in the whole mikes and meetings etc) as some do work and such, but others just wouldn’t work/solve anything, as anyone on the officiating side would see, whilst those who aren’t on it wouldn’t. As I’m not on about the blatant mistakes that some officials make, but more the things you said before and the scenarios of when Michael Oliver sent off the Wolves lad for the double yellow offence etc, as those are scenarios where any ref will 100% get why what happened, happened, whilst those that aren’t ones, won’t necessarily get it.
And sorry but most fans/coaches/players don’t get/except of how hard it is to be an official, or at least certainly don’t show it. As I agree that in the Prem there’s many less excuses with VAR in play, but watching that referee show on skys YouTube account (here’s the video and seeing how soo many react to it just shows that by far a majority don’t understand how hard it/know the LOTG themselves, yet still somehow criticise those that do for doing things right. As the ref on there has said exactly what most refs would agree with being correct, yet soo many in the comments to section seem to think they know better.
And for your last point, well things will never be perfect, but many fans expect it to be. As yes some things should change, and some officials shouldn’t be prem refs, but also there needs to be changes on the fan/coach/players side of the game as well.
What is it that fans expect officials to do in today’s game? on 12:30 - Mar 25 by saint901
There has to be an honest and open debate and all sides need to acknowledge that no game will ever be refereeed perfectly.
Presently the reaction from serving refs and the entities that protect them (PGMOL, EPL, EFL, FA, etc) is too reactionary.
Any (and I mean any) criticism is met with fines or silence.
That's just not good enough and creates and reinforces the mistrust between fans and refs.
Fans are biased but most, after the passion of the game, would probably agree that the ref got 95% of the decisions right. And that is the position of all except the most myopic of supporters. VAR is a joke at the moment and too inconsistent to be any help in improving refs (in fact I think it makes refs more cautious about the @big@ decisions).
There needs to be a long term strategy as well. Refs at kids level need to be protected from pushy (aggressive) parents. (I've abandoned games at under 12 level for this reason fearing for my own, the players and other spectators' safety).
Until work is done at that level we will not see a flow of junior refs coming into the equation. Instead we see those who are too thick skinned or arrogant to take on board what is sometime justified criticism, into the non league and eventually league matches.
If you have been schooled into being deaf to criticism and @learn@ only from fellow refs who have had the same training, you're never going to change.
So the whole system needs reform. And that reform needs to recognise the culture within referee groups and between refs and players, clubs and fans.
I watch video's of refs being attacked by players, club officials and fans and almost always this is a result of partisan feelings. I do think though that better and transparent communication would stop a good proportion of those attacks.
Refs can own and control this reform - SO WHY AREN'T THEY?
You’ve made some great points in their 901, and I completely agree with the youth side of things and how some refs in the national league and such can be thicked skinned and the same goes for the blatant VAR mistakes and such. As we’ve all seen the major VAR screw ups this season as well as their being some arrogant refs (some of which I’ve had to work with who always would tell us never to flag for fouls and that what they say goes etc…), and that until more refs come through, there’s no one to replace the arrogant refs (as I myself as a young adult, only know of 8 other local refs that are around my age and similar to my level).
But with the whole “only listening to refs and not others” etc, I both do and don’t agree there. As I myself have spoken to coaches/players after games that I’ve watched or officiated about what they expect/like to get off of ref’s, and hearing what they say can help to develop my game as an official, these are things like being verbal and almost commentating on what my minds thinking so that people know why I did/didn’t give fouls, and telling them pre game about what I expect in the dissent side and such etc. But there’s also things that they say that I don’t listen to as it’s not right, like them talking about laws that they don’t agree with, bringing out cards early in games (even when they’re needed) etc but are still laws, for example complaining about handballs or the fact that your not offside when an opponent plays it etc. So ref’s both should and shouldn’t listen to coaches and such as some of what they say is fair and can help everyone, whilst other parts don’t.
But even then there’s some things ref’s don’t like with what the FA does (like how getting promoted and such is down to club marks as well as Observer ones) so it’s not like it’s just the players/coaches side that should be changing. As like you’ve said, more people do need to be more excepting/understanding of ref’s for things to get better (as I’ve still seen a few complaint about the Man City pen against us which in the end was a pen, yet some fans won’t except that).
But no it’s not the refs who own and control the reforms, but rather the FA, as it’s the FA that the refs must follow the instructions/laws of, and it’s the FA that decide of how high in the footballing ladder they get. So whether the refs like it or not, it’s the FA who are in charge as it’s them that are in charge, just like how your boss is for your work and how you always have to listen to them, even when you disagree with what they’re saying.
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