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Reply | Another Brexit thread
at 21:40 7 Aug 2019
Good point about the veto. But, if you have a get out clause that is used regularly (and I don't know how it is applied and how often it is used) then what's the point of being part of the club at all... you might as well leave! |
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Reply | Another Brexit thread
at 21:25 7 Aug 2019
You are right to some extent in that the House of Lords is unelected (not saying our system is perfect) but the House of Lords doesn't propose legislation, it is a reviewing body. The Commissioners propose legislation and are probably more akin to Secretaries of State. Yes, we also don't directly vote for, e.g. the Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary, but they are (usually) elected Members of Parliament and also members of a political party which has stood on a manifesto and which can be voted out. That doesn't apply to EU Commissioners.
I'm not saying that everything that comes out of the EU is bad, but it certainly isn't a representative democracy. My view is that it is an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy that we can easily manage without.
No-one is pushing my buttons, I am just thinking for myself, and anyway, they all lie. I didn't vote for Boris, but nor did I vote for Gordon Brown when he became Prime Minister, nor Alastair Campbell or Jonathan Powell, it works both ways.
For me it's simple, the less state the better. |
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Reply | Another Brexit thread
at 20:44 7 Aug 2019
As far as I understand it, and I am always happy to be corrected if I am wrong, EU legislation can only be proposed and implemented by the EU Commission. These 28 Commissioners (one for each country) are nominated by the leaders of each county (though the EU President can veto any nomination they don’t like). They don’t stand for election on any manifesto but they have huge influence on bringing in new legislation.
Out of interest, the UK Commissioner is Sir Julian Beresford King (ever heard of him?) and is responsible for Security. And, as a random example, the EU Commissioner for Food Health and Safety, quite an important one impacting the daily lives of EU citizens and businesses, is Vytenis Andriukaitis (ever heard of him?). The point is that these are all unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats… and that’s where we (ordinary citizens) don’t have any control. We don’t vote them in and we can’t vote them out.
Of course any legislation proposed by the EU Commission still has to be passed by the EU Parliament (and EU Council of Ministers). Yes, we vote for MEPs but this is all just smoke and mirrors to make it look like there is proper accountability. MEPs can’t propose legislation. In theory they can make amendments but essentially they just vote yes or no on what comes out of the Commission. The EU Parliament is just a glorified rubber stamping body which has no real power.
Now, tell me that’s democratic. |
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Reply | Another Brexit thread
at 08:06 7 Aug 2019
The basic question is simple... do you want to choose who governs you? If "yes" then leaving the EU is the only viable option. You certainly do not choose who governs in the EU, it's a stitch up. The UK first past the post system isn't perfect by any means but everyone generally understands it and it sort of works. The EU is way too big, too remote, too unaccountable.
Did anyone on this forum vote for Ursula von der Leyen? Of course not, you didn't have a vote. In fact she only got 51% or so of the vote of the European Parliament which is quite impressive given that she was the only candidate! What kind of selection process is that for a President? At least there were two choices in the referendum and everyone had a vote!
And now comes the agenda, including increased EU integration. What will the EU look like in 5-10-15 years time... EU army, EU foreign policy, EU taxes, who knows? It strikes me that Leavers knew what they were voting for far more than Remainers.
Of course there should be co-operation between individual states including free trade, free movement, security etc. but that doesn't require full on political union.
And, will a no deal Brexit bring about the catastrophe that is being predicted? Only if either party (UK or EU) want it to. |
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Reply | BREAKING!! Corbyn endorses campaign for second EU referendum!
at 18:22 23 Jan 2019
Jean Monnet, one of the founding fathers of the European Union, is claimed to have written the following in a letter to a friend on 30th April, 1952:
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”
Note the word "irreversibly"... we are very close to being in Hotel California territory already.
Whether he actually said that or not, the Jean Monnet plan does seem to be what's happening. A referendum should have been held around 2008 before Gordon Brown signed the Lisbon Treaty and surrendered all sorts of sovereignty. Such a major constitutional change required a referendum (as was pledged in the Labour 2005 manifesto) but instead sailed through Parliament. The fact that Brown signed the thing separately from the main ceremony also says a lot (probably because he knew what he was really doing and didn't want to appear in the group photo for the rest of history!)
Ireland, on the other hand, did have a referendum and famously voted against it. As a result, the Irish had to have their own version of a "People's Vote" and the result was reversed. Mission successful.
The current debate is way too focused on what happens immediately following Brexit (if it happens at all) from the pound collapsing to Dover gridlock to shortages of Mars bars... all of course just temporary disruption. The real focus should be on what happens over the next 5-10-15 years. The big question should be around Jean Monnet's prediction and whether the UK becomes part of an EU superstate and what that would mean. Maybe that's fine and we'll all live happily ever after, but then again maybe not. At least those advocating EU membership forever should be open about the long term direction.
A quick democratic test... ask any Remainer (or anyone else for that matter) who their Westminster MP is and they will probably be able to tell you, then ask them who their multiple MEPs are and they probably won't have a clue... I rest my case. |
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Reply | Life after Death
at 22:06 28 Jan 2014
Best quote on this subject was by Mark Twain: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” Enough said! |
| | jules
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