The Squad Is Stronger But Is The Team ?
Wednesday, 3rd Sep 2014 09:21

There can be no doubt that Saints have a stronger squad than last season, but will the starting XI be better, here we take a look.

If I had to put my finger on just one difference between Mauricio Pochettino and Ronald Koeman, I would have to say it would be one word and that word is "Squad" our former manager preferred to work with a core group of around 13/14 outfield players and anyone outside of that would only get a game if someone was injured, but even in that 13/14 it was very rigid for Pochettino, when Dejan Lovren was out for instance he would not consider using Calum Chambers as a central defender, but would bring in Yoshida or Hooiveld.

This meant that the squad system was pretty much non existent, Pochettino knew his own starting XI and played that whatever the game or circumstance barring injury, even the substitutions were like for like.

Hence we had a squad that was not match fit and must have been de motivated knowing that unless someone was injured, whatever happened they would not be getting a game, look at Calum Chambers last season after starting the first 3 games and playing 13 minutes as sub in the 4th, he did not see any other Premier League action till 7th December a period of nearly 3 months were he sat on the bench every game yet did not get on the pitch, similarly Jack Cork, when he came on at half time against Aston Villa on 4th December he had appeared in only 4 previous Premier League games, three of those had been as a final minute sub and only in the 4th game did he get any sort of game time, a massive 6 minutes to be exact.

Already Ronald Koeman looks a manager who uses his squad on a game by game basis to adapt to any given situation, but not only that, to him the bench is giving him options to change games rather than just as insurance should someone get injured.

Over the last couple of months Koeman has been not just rebuilding the team, but building a squad and that could be crucial come the end of the season, last season Pochettino's "team" pretty much went to the form book in terms of that it mainly beat the bottom 5, it had mixed results against the 7 teams that finished below us and it was poor against the teams above us.

That showed we weren't using the squad, if we had of done could we have changed some of those results from draws or losses to wins, it could be said we finished 8th in spite of Pochettino and not because of him, a stat backed up by the fact that under him in the 15 months he was at the club we had plenty of games where we scored first and lost, but not once did we go behind in a game and win.

Under Ronald Koeman that has already changed, at West Ham we not only changed the team to adapt to West Ham's game, but we changed it tactically in the 2nd half and in the end came from behind to win, Koeman didn't use all his sub's but the two he brought on were used well.

So lets take a look at our squad now and see if we are stronger or weaker than we were last season.

Goalkeeper (stronger)
I liked Artur Boruc, but I think Fraser Forster is stronger and better, therefore I think we are stronger in this department, even more so if Boruc stays put and sits on the bench.

Right back. (stronger)
A strong position for us last year as we had Clyne and Chambers, but now we still have Clyne, we also have Alderweireld who can play there and Jack Cork can as well, given that Chambers was not first choice there and only played when Clyne was injured we are definately as strong here probably stronger.

Central Defence (stronger)
Last season we had Fonte and we had Lovren then we had Yoshida, now we have Alderweireld and Gardos to replace Lovren, the position as whole is stronger what we need to find out though whether the first choice pairing is better than last years, I would say overall it has the potential to be, but the key area is veratility, both Alderweireld and Gardos can play in other positions if need be and will offer good cover in injury, that being the case even if we accepted that Lovren was better than both, given the time out he had for injury, I would say the point or two that Lovren won us last season was cancelled out by those we lost through his injuries, now we have the right cover, this being the case i think we are stronger.

Left Back (stronger)
Luke Shaw was obviously a class act, but in the hype a lot of people missed the fact that he was not that great going forward, Plastic Bertrand seems to be faster and more inventive doing this, however defensively Shaw probably shades it, but so far we dont seem to have lost anything with Bertrand and again it comes down to cover, last year we had none and relied on Clyne swapping sides, this year we have the emerging Targett, this is tight when it comes to deciding but I still feel we are stronger here.

Central midfield (stronger)
No doubt here we are stronger, we have kept Schneiderlin and added options, Tadic can play in the centre and Gardos can also play there.

Wide(stronger)
Im using the general term wide here, last season our wide options consisted of Adam Lallana and Jay Rodriguez, this season although we have lost one player we have added three, Tadic, Long & now Mane can all play in the wide attacking role but all are different and can offer something that can change a game, Tadic is like Lallana but faster and more direct, Long is more like J Rod, but the real change seems to be in Sadio Mane, he would appear to be the genuine Pace that we have lacked for so long, therefore especially when J Rod returns we have so many options and all of them can play either up front or centrally in midfield if required.

Striker (stronger)
If just compare Pelle to Rickie Lambert the jury is out, but last season after Osvaldo left our options were limited up front, this year we have more than one, Pelle showed on Saturday he is adapting to the English game, if he hits 10 Premier goals from open play then he will have outscored Rickie, however that is yet to be known, but now we have options, J Rod could play up front as he did sometimes last year, Shane Long can play up front, Tadic can play as a striker and so can Mane, again this is a position that we are so much stronger in.

Overall I think as a squad we are that much stronger now and that we also have a youngster or two that might be ready to step up to the plate in Matt Targett, Lloyd Isgrove, Sam McQueen and Harrison Reed, players that last year were too raw, but are now a little bit more experienced, they never really got that experience last year, ochettino preferred to use Guly than any of them, but now they are a year older and stronger, but more importantly they have a manager that is prepared to use them and indeed his squad as a whole, the full squad has motivation that they could force their way into the managers plans, last season that was not there, Pochettino's way of working was a lot different.

The main difference in my opinion is 4 key areas where we have lost players, I discount Chambers and right back as he was never the first choice, so that leaves.

Central Defender - Is one of the new boys better than Lovren - We dont know yet

Left Back - Does Bertrand offer more than Shaw - I don't think he is quite the player Shaw is but I think he offers more

Wide Attack - Will Tadic, Long or Mane offer more than Lallana, given that Lallana could not hack the high tempo pressing game for more than 65 minutes usually, think between these three they will offer a lot more

Striker - I think that we moved Lambert on at the right time here just as he was slowing down, Pelle is a better more mobile player than Rickie was last season, Rickie of 2/3 years ago perhaps not, but now Pelle seems to have what it takes and we have options other than Sam Gallagher in games its not working

So to go back to the original question, we undoubtably have a stronger squad, but I do think we now have a stronger team, football clubs are about keeping moving forward and improving the squad and team, I think as painful as it has been, this summer has seen that.

If we had kept everyone then there would have been little funds to improve the team and the best we could have hoped for would have been to repeat the season, it wasn't ideal to lose so many key players, but the truth is only 3 of them were truly key and I think we have replaced them well.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating though, the next few months will answer the question in those key areas, but I think that overall the points we might drop that Lovren/Lallana/Shaw/Lambert might have gained us will be eclipsed by those we win, as on Saturday at West Ham, because we have a stronger squad that is well used by a manager who knows what tactics are.

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landsdownsaint added 09:58 - Sep 3

Pelle is nowhere near RL in ability ! Iv been to all games so far and all he's done is squander chance after chance... But i really do hope it all starts to go right for him. As regards MPs team ,Al & co were togethe many years making it hard to compare , this new squad & manager brings a huge feeling of stability ,something MPs reign never had ...although I thought last season was as good as it gets .

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REEDYREEDOREEDZ added 10:56 - Sep 3

What??? There's a lot of crap in this article, I don't know where to begin. Yes we might have a deeper squad but the only position in the starting 11 where we are stronger is in goal.
Tadic, in time, might be as good or even better than Lallana, but you've got to remember how good Lallana was last season and how important he was for us. Tadic has a lot to prove.
You can't say Pelle is better than Lambert! Not on what we've seen so far.
Shaw is better than Bertrand!! Itâ€™s just madness trying to say otherwise.
If Alderweireld forms a partnership with Fonte that's as good as Lovren was then we'll be laughing. Big shoes to fill. Itâ€™s likely he won't be as good as Lovren.
To say that we are stronger in centre midfield because Tadic and Gardos can play there is really clutching at straws. Neither player will play there, not when we have Schneiderlin, Cork, Wanyama, Davis, Ward-Prowse & Reed. Centre Midfield is still our strongest position, that hasnâ€™t changed from last season.
We are not stronger as a squad at right back either. Last season we had two excellent specialist right backs whereas now if Clyne is out then they'd have to shift Alderweireld or Cork to RB which is not ideal. Especially if Alderweireld is trying to forge a CB partnership with Fonte.
The starting 11 isn't as good. Not a million miles off but not as good. Maybe in time they'll match last season's best 11. The squad, as a whole, is stronger though. The main improvement is the attacking options. We now have Long and Mane to offer something different to what we had last season, while Tadic replaced Lallana, and Pelle directly replaced Lambert. Shame they let Ramirez go who would've given us another option and offered something different too.

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slynch added 11:09 - Sep 3

I think you are largely correct. Although your assumptions that the 2 or 3 untested new boys are going to be as good as you are assuming in the EPL is a bit premature. There's always some unexpected successes and unexpected failures. Tadic at first glance was average but his performances have been excellent and matches have at times looked like the Tadic Show. Taider of course was the opposite, but at least you can get a refund on his shirt!
On the whole I don't think a club could have done better out of a transfer window; disposing of some dead wood and dubious talent for vastly over-inflated prices; bringing in fresh talent and a vast profit that will take the club forward beyond its perceived status.

hmmm added 11:18 - Sep 3 "It could be said we finished 8th in spite of Pochettino and not because of him ...", I assume this is a joke. "last season Pochettino's "team" pretty much went to the form book" ... and this as well. A form book written at the end of the season I assume, and not the beginning
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REEDYREEDOREEDZ added 11:39 - Sep 3

I think the reality is:
We bought Frazer Forster, an excellent signing, heâ€™s not far off being Englandâ€™s number one, and is an all-round better keeper and more reliable than Boruc.
We lost Shaw who was exceptional and probably the best young left back in the world (at least Man Utd think so), and we have replaced him with a good player in Bertrand.
We lost Chambers, a future England regular, and we lost Lovren, one of the best defenders in the league. Weâ€™ve signed Alderwiereld, a brilliant signing, if only on loan, and should be a great replacement for Lovren. We havenâ€™t directly replaced Chambers but we have decent cover. Gardos is unproven but will without doubt provide better cover than Hooiveld, and has the potential to push for the first team.
We lost Lallana, a great player and a very important attacking outlet for the team, and weâ€™ve replaced him with Tadic who looks the real deal. In time he could be just as good if not better than Lallana so the club have done well here.
We lost Lambert who was way past his best and declining quickly. He was still an important player though with his ability to hold the ball up, link the play and provide an aerial threat. Weâ€™ve replaced him with Pelle who seems to be more of an out and out goal scorer rather than a playmaker. So Pelle provides something slightly different, still being a target man though, and might score more goals from open play than Lambert because heâ€™s more mobile and more focused on scoring rather than creating. He is a good replacement for Lambert and Iâ€™m hopeful heâ€™ll be the 15 goals a season striker we need.
We paid massively over the top for Long but he gives us something different in attack and might prove to be a valuable squad member. Thereâ€™s no way heâ€™d keep a fit and on form J-Rod out of the team.
Weâ€™ve paid big money for Mane, which is a risk, but if he comes good then it will be money well spent and heâ€™ll provide us with some much needed explosive pace and trickery.

nomorerumours added 11:48 - Sep 3

I really thought that most of the negative posters had finally been convinced that things were now better than last season. I strongly disagree with the first 2 posts above and 100% agree with all the reasoning, analysis and conclusions in this excellent article. The first post seems to be from one of that tiny minority of so-called fans who actually jeered Pelle during our West Brom game. That was an forgivable outburst. Fans should never boo their own players at any time, that's the job of opposition fans. Our new players need time to settle in and need the strong support of all our fans to help them gain their confidence. It is totally unreasonable to jump to conclusions without giving a player a chance to prove himself. In fact their criticism is entirely wrong anyway. Pelle did not get the support that he needed in either the Liverpool game (which we deserved to win) or, more especially, in the West Brom game. He had a very good all round game at Millwall, especially when we got forward in the second half. He got closer and closer to scoring and was unlucky not to get 1 or 2 before he finally scored. He also drew out defenders creating space for others going forward. Graziano had a great game against West Ham and probably should have had a hat rick. It seems that he got the final touch on Morgan's 1st goal, his next goal was disallowed for being off-side when it looks like he was onside but the 3rd was thudded home with great authority. He also looked much more mobile in that game. He is growing better with each game and settling in really quickly compared to most strikers new to the EPL. The Tadic cross and Pelle will be feared by all opposition sides and add in the pace of Mane and we have an awesome attack that will unsettle the tightest of defenses. I just give up on the second post. It's from one of those who completely unjustifiably hurled abuse at our owner and the board all summer. This poster either needs to fully reform and change their hateful log in name or go and support Portsmouth. We are far stronger overall already. We have an exciting, very young squad with a huge amount of quality and ability. Our best ever manager will get the best of the squad and is shrewd tactitian. The best thing is that we have so many players who can slot into several different positions, appropriately highlighted in your article. Well done and ignore some of the truly negative and abusive comments.

Accountant added 12:20 - Sep 3

A well written article and I think I agree entirely. I would add three other "stronger" position:-
(a) we are also stronger in the bank, which may be useful in January, but I suspect that will not be needed and
(b) I believe we are also stronger in the Management position as we now have a manager whose focus is on SAINTS not his own future. As far as the "playing as a team" is concerned, I am prepared to be patient, this is the managers job and many of the team now are the managers chosen people. I saw enough in the second half on Saturday to see this will come.
(c) we are certainly stronger in the training facilities with the Â£30m project finished. If you are spending Â£5m - Â£10m on a typical player then it is wise to develop them with the best facilities. I think here we are not only stronger but the STRONGEST in the PL.

Lambert/Shaw/Lovren & Lallana have left and SAINTS will move on without them as we have done when many other GREATS have left or hung up their boots.

Just wonder who will take the Penalties?

ExiledSupporter added 12:35 - Sep 3

Well done Reedy, your first post above was some way off the mark, having had time to reconsider your position, your second posting was much better thought through. Now whatever happened between 1056hrs and 1139hrs must have been truly perception changing.

Good article Nick, not quite sure that I agree with some of the comments mainly because they are based on a degree of hope, in particular ref. Gardos and Mane who not only need to be selected to play and then play at least a half dozen games before any judgements can be made, anything else would be unfair to the players.

My own feeling about Long is that he may be useful but we certainly paid too much; re Pelle that he is improving but turns a little slowly and needs to use his physique a little more effectively I thought his first half and first touch at WHAM was a little uninspired but the second was a considerable step up; Bertrand looks an excellent replacement.

While far too early to comment on Mane and Gardos, Alderweireld has the established track record to suggest a very competent player and Tadic will in my opinion be better than Lallana (so will be the first to be undermined by the clubs higher up the food chain next summer).

Lastly though very unhappy about the loss of Chambers and Ramires, delighted that MS and JR remain with us and that we didn't get Townsend (what on earth were we thinking of?) or worse still one or two of the others rumoured to be in our sights (Shea and Cameron at Stoke for instance) Still think that Ramires would have made the best No.10 available to us...

bstokesaint added 12:39 - Sep 3

I totally agree Nick. In my opinion we have a much stronger squad and potentially a stronger first XI. It's impossible to confirm the latter with any certainty because of the unknown quantities, but given what we do have and a little bit of time to gel I think this team will be better than last year.
I think everyone agrees the goalkeeping position is stronger without question. In defence, for all of Shaw's praise as a modern-day full back he didn't provide enough of an attacking threat for me. Straight away Bertrand will improve this stat and he can defend to a decent standard. Lovren is a class player (and total ****** but I can't factor that in here) and will be the biggest miss. Only time will tell if the new additions can cover him adequately.
In midfield I can honestly say I don't see Lallana's absence as being an issue and he seems more than adequately replaced by Tadic who has skill and strength, which Lallana lacked. For those who can cast their minds back further than a season, they might recall that Lallana rarely fulfilled his potential and we were looking to bring in replacements who could fill this position. I'll miss him for being someone who I hoped would be Southampton through and through. I think most fans would find it difficult to disagree Rickie has probably had his best years. Yes we all know he is more than just a striker, but if any of the new players can provide more of an attacking distribution then the likes of outright strikers like Long and hopefully Pelle will be more useful to us. Letâ€™s be honest for all of his useful hold-up play itâ€™s of limited use when the player doing the hold-up is your most forward-playing man, particularly in J-Rodâ€™s absence. It also slows down any counter-attacking.
Given Chambers wasnâ€™t even a first choice player and I canâ€™t see any reason that the new manager wonâ€™t be able to work with his team any less effectively than his predecessor I believe we can improve on 8th regardless of what other clubs may or may not have done.

pintsizedsaint added 13:01 - Sep 3

Agreed - although time will be the judge on most of these. Yet you can only look at potential and historical performance and this article gets that pretty much spot on.

Biggest improvement is the manager. I'm sure i read somewhere that, under MP, we never won a game in which we conceded the first goal - largely because he had no Plan B. RK's already smashed that one.

And that's where the key issue is - for RK it's all about the squad. I'll always remember our first game against Villa last season: we went into it riding very high and confident. Yet we were one trick ponies and Villa just studied the tapes and prepared well. We got a good spanking and that alerted a good deal of other teams that we only had one Plan and it can be contained if you have the knowledge.

Under RK, I think its going to be harder for teams to read what tactic we may employ - and that we may well shift tactics mid game. That's a nightmare for teams to prepare for.

REEDYREEDOREEDZ added 13:03 - Sep 3

Ha! Cheers Exiledsupporter. I didn't mean to come across as so negative in that first post, its just the article is way too unrealistically positive, making claims that Bertrand is better Shaw etc etc. If that turns out to be the case then the option to buy at Â£10m will be an absolute bargain!
I see why Nick posted this article, we do have a lot to be happy about considering how bad the exodus was this summer, but he just went too far with some of the claims.
Yes the squad as a whole is stronger, yes the club is stronger (as accountant points out above), and yes the club did very well to keep hold of MS and JRod. We can now look forward with a bit of optimism with the madness of the transfer window over.

mayfairsaint1 added 13:48 - Sep 3

I pretty much agree with all of your comments Nick. Our second half performance against West Ham was terrific. As good as anything I witnessed last year. Probably better.
As for the knockers and boo boys I'd like to say this. I hate you. I hate you more than I hate Lovren, Lallana and Redknapp.

You're entitled to your opinion REEDYREEDOREEDZ but I really don't share it. I will be amazed if we don't finish above Tottenham. In fact, i'm going to put money on it!

welhamdowed added 13:54 - Sep 3

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and this squad is miles stronger than last seasons. On performances so far you can't say we're a better or worse team than last term. It's way too early to judge and time will tell, especially for the new signings. One half decent performance against a poor West Ham side does not make this side great. I think the keeper position is the only one you could say we have a better player, Forster looks an excellent signing so far.

My concern is that come January there might be players in that 1st XI whose heads will be turned and we know that each player has a price, no matter what the board or manager say.

montecristo added 13:58 - Sep 3

Football being as emotive a subject as it is , it is no surprise that Nick went off on one and started crowing that KL Reed and Krueger had been vindicated and those that had been critical should now appologise. its tosh and I will tell you why. To begin with the manner in which players were sold after repeated assurances that they would not be, is unforgivable. For those who dont understand , its called lying. Secondly, what on earth did it achieve? The club took an enormous risk, we still do not know whether there strategy if indeed there was one, will pay off. Not all transfers work out , luck comes into it. We sold proven players, and others who were huge prospects.Chambers and Shaw were traded off as if they were nothing, and they were the future of this club. I am worriedfor Shaw I think he has already come under too much pressure at United, and Van Gaal seems to have reservations about him, so much so that he has bought two other left sided defenders. Was there another way? Yes of course, the same one that Hull chose. They too have invested, without selling off the silverware, and will do well. We did not need to sell five players, one would have been enough. And we should have kept Chambers and Shaw. So why did the club do it, and why did they then say no to Schneiderlin? So why did they not say no to the others? There seems to have been no coherent approach to their transfer strategy whatsoever. Finally, no one seems to have worked in tv revenue before making statements about how much our net spend has been. Id want to see accounts before I would be willing to accept KL was not asset stripping. Our tv money last season went up by 30 million, I am willing to bet this has paid for first installments on our purchases. Id also like to interview Christian Purslow, is it true he was instructed to find a buyer for Southampton football club?

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BoondockSaint added 14:00 - Sep 3

Talent-wise the only departure that worried me is Lovern and I would have liked to have kept Gaston to see once and for all what he could do with our players, not Hull's
Losing a "future England player " is not a loss-especially if we can replace him with a "future Holland or Gemany player" (and I am a long suffering England supporter-sorry, that's redundant isn't it?)
While I do give him credit for his high pressing style that harried the prima donnas of the league, it's true we might have finished higher if One Trick MoPony had just changed tactics once or twice. We were 8 points behind ManU and if we had just parked the bus in 3 or 4 games, or not taken Lallana (excuse my language!) off with 10 minutes to go when we needed a goal, we probably could have caught them. What was the final count on lost points? something like 15-18? I know we were highest in the league.
I don't think this will be the case with RK-he changes tactics on the fly and he picks who he wants, when he wants, rather than play favourites.

brady100 added 14:34 - Sep 3

Some good points but Nick at times almost embarassingly quick to knock Pochettino. It's beginning to sound like a woman down the pub telling all her friends how bad her boyfriend was, before returning home to cry herself to sleep. Why not forget about Poch, its all history now. We have made the 'squad' stronger but only time will tell if we will miss the likes of Lallana, Shaw, Lamber and Lovren. Looking forward to watching Mane play, looks a great prospect.

daveinzambia added 14:37 - Sep 3

Agree with some of the points about the squad being stronger and now the season has started can see that Tadic and maybe Pelle will be able to play in premiership. Those final two signings give a couple more options and when Rodriguez returns i think we will have a pretty good side.

the point being that what we wanted as fans was to keep the squad we had and then try to build on that. We had a team i felt could beat anyone on their day and was exciting to watch. remains to be seen if this team offers that level of enjoyment

have to say i am confused by your claim on Koeman using the squad more. Surely he has started all three games with the same team.

SanMarco added 18:22 - Sep 3

I actually find it difficult to separate my dislike of MoPo for his off the field actions from the fact that I have a grudging respect for the way we played under him. I suppose the (unanswerable) question is - what would have happened if Adkins had stayed (and had the same players to work with)?

Those that say he can't change a game will have nodded sagely during the Liverpool defeat on Sunday. I am really looking forward to 4 October at White Hart Lane - a game that will tell us a lot about how we are doing.

pintsizedsaint added 18:31 - Sep 3 Montecrusto, The only tosh I see is in your posts. Have the good grace to accept you were wrong. It's getting a bit pathetic now.
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aceofthebase added 20:14 - Sep 3 Monte you haven't a clue about SFC, Your posts are long winded twaddle
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GeordieSaint added 20:47 - Sep 3

Ouch! Come on Nick. I agree with a lot of this post but to suggest Pochetino held us back last season is an incredible statement. He played his part in moving both the team and the club forward. Those players might have all left but for half the money had it not been for the development that clearly occurred under his stewardship and he left the team in a better state than he found it. Sure there were things that could be questioned but he undoubtedly did a good job. I believe we even got a transfer fee for him too. I sincerely hope we can turn spurs over but I don't feel bitter towards him at all, last year was great fun and with any luck this year will be even better and new favourites will emerge. Even athletico Madrid were asset stripped by richer clubs and they won the Spanish league.

cheltenhamsaint added 20:47 - Sep 3

It's too early to tell, which is a stance I took at the height of the "exodus" (well perhaps my glass was nearly empty when Chambers left, but not now).
I like the manager a lot, I think the management team have done a remarkable job in supporting him by executing his requests for players when the outside world was saying it was falling apart, and on paper I am excited about the squad we now have.
None of us know how it will pan out however, and that is the point of supporting a football team. If you want certainty for your entertainment go the theatre to watch a hit musical.
I thumbs upped a lot of posts as I enjoyed reading the debate, particularly if you made a valid well argued point even if it wasn't exactly my view.

IanRC added 21:54 - Sep 3 Actually I think we could probably loan back Shaw if we wanted him as that plonker van gaal only knows how to buy players rather than develop theme it would seem.
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bstokesaint added 21:59 - Sep 3

***** Monte!! You are either seriously on the wind-up, or you're the most depressing Saints' fan (or human generally) I've come across yet. And there are a few. I don't know about a glass half full, I'll bet if you spill some froth on the way back from the bar you call it empty.

If you're asset stripping a club you don't spend Â£50m investing in new players. It's a new era with a new manager, building his own squad. Let it go, you were wrong, wipe that drippy egg off your nose and get behind your team. I'm just glad I didn't see your posts when we got relegated to League 1 :/

landsdownsaint added 22:51 - Sep 3 Nomorerumours ! ? I friend have never jeered a saints player in my life! I'm stating what Iv seen and will be the first to hold my hands up when I'm hopefully proven wrong.
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