| FFS Calm down 15:21 - Aug 24 with 4657 views | Cornish_oooRRRR |
So much histrionics. It's the second game. Away to a top 4 contender. All we are aiming for is to be less bad than 3 others
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| FFS Calm down on 15:27 - Aug 24 with 4614 views | eghamranger |
I like your thinking, I didn't see the match, but reading the March thread people are peed off about the lack of effort.
Hopefully Ned came on and did enough to start, Faurlin will get his place back and Charlie will be fit.
Forget today, never gonna get a point there anyway and get ready for Sunderland on Saturday.
COYRS |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 15:28 - Aug 24 with 4590 views | Nov77 |
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| FFS Calm down on 15:28 - Aug 24 with 4597 views | dubaistu |
I think we are all realistic in our expectations this year, all you ask is to be competitive and get your balls out.
None of it today and basic, basic errors by very experienced players.
Who can you blame? Is it the system, is it the players, is it the management? I know which one I would have changed in the summer. |  | | |
| FFS Calm down (n/t) on 15:28 - Aug 24 with 4590 views | TopCat34 |
[Post edited 24 Aug 2014 15:29]
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| FFS Calm down on 15:35 - Aug 24 with 4500 views | Jamie |
There'll be all sorts tonight.
Those saying it was the worst thing they've seen since the last Michael Bay film, demanding Arry to tonight and we sign 28 more players before next Monday.
Those saying it was a new team, working with a new system away to a very well drilled Spurs side.
Those saying it's all parts of King Arrys masterplan, to lull the rest of the league into a false sense of security.
Amidst it all, Norf will be pulling his hair out trying to moderate the carnage. |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 15:37 - Aug 24 with 4465 views | Discodroid |
the bit where we went 4 nil down and then 90 seconds later traore failed to complete a simple 5 yard pass which went straight into touch really was a delight to behold.
just top class wan.kery .
no matter which way you cut it.
they hit the bar and squanderd at least three other golden chances, last ditch tackles , their center halves doing cryuff turns in our penalty area..
from what ive seen of leicester and burnley were a peter elliot to their ovett and coe in our little diamond league of survival. [Post edited 24 Aug 2014 15:38]
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| " I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969 |
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| FFS Calm down on 16:26 - Aug 24 with 4307 views | wood_hoop |
| FFS Calm down on 15:28 - Aug 24 by dubaistu |
I think we are all realistic in our expectations this year, all you ask is to be competitive and get your balls out.
None of it today and basic, basic errors by very experienced players.
Who can you blame? Is it the system, is it the players, is it the management? I know which one I would have changed in the summer. |
Problem is when they play so poorly it is difficult to see past the performance and just how improvements are to be made, the side put out are not exactly novices and even playing one of the 'top' sides a better show should be expected, they looked so far behind Spurs it was embarassing that they even shared the same pitch, we are meant to be a Prem team as well.
The lack of skills and knowledge was pitiful, don't worry though the players are not paid on how they are rated or how many points they gain in a season, happy to report that their £40 k plus wages per week will still be paid, the same for every game for the rest of the season, no matter how much devoid of skills they show.
That gets my back up more than anything, football is a highly lucrative profession, that's life, the very least that should be expected is they resemble a 'professional' , maybe HR has a cunning plan, difficult to see what.
Hoddle very much there as an 'insurance' said so from when he first came to us, come October ? if things haven't improved HR will become Director of Football or whatever grand title they give to someone they move from the main job, he may walk but as he would have to recieve a very good pay off can see him saving face for him and TF, sitting in the directors seats while Hoddle takes over.
All conjecture of course but HR does not exactly insire me with the confidence he knows what the fcuk he is doing. |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 16:29 - Aug 24 with 4278 views | thame_hoops |
No overreaction here but it annoys me to see Burnley and leics give good accounts of themselves and then 3 yrs ago with Norwich and Swansea |  | | |
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| FFS Calm down on 16:40 - Aug 24 with 4245 views | essextaxiboy |
| FFS Calm down on 16:29 - Aug 24 by thame_hoops |
No overreaction here but it annoys me to see Burnley and leics give good accounts of themselves and then 3 yrs ago with Norwich and Swansea |
Have they played away to a top 6 side then ? |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 16:42 - Aug 24 with 4228 views | Ingham |
It may be my imagination but aren't we (almost) always in this position? We need to give them time, and by next season, it's an entirely different squad, frequently a different manager, and no idea what, as a Club, we actually think we are.
Isn't it about time they gave themselves some time by performing at the level they're being paid at?
Are we a big club? Presumably not. But we spent £200 million on players the last time we were in the Premiership. (£120 million of losses plus the £80 million or so from TV). That can't be too far off the spend at Chelsea or City over a two year period when they won their various titles.
Once upon a time, we knew what we were.
We were an overperforming small Club. We developed some kind of nucleus of players in the youth system, and were often shrewd in signing players others couldn't cope with (Marsh and Bowles), veterans with class (Les Allen, Currie, Wilkins, Sansom), and real bargains like Brian Bedford, Phil Parkes, Les Ferdinand and so on. We got good players who were somewhat adrift, like Clive Wilson, or who were fleeing from the wreckage at a Club which had fallen apart in some way, or was in financial difficulties - Terry Fenwick, David Seaman and others - and sturdy club players we could make use of, like Simon Barker or Darren Peacock.
When it didn't quite come off, we had to wait. We cashed in, and - generally speaking, we did wait. Often we were forced to give someone less than wonderful a go, but we usually didn't spend too much on them, so there was money for a real bargain like Bowles or to pay the likes of Wilkins or Samson.
But now we're told we must move to a 40,000 capacity stadium. Why? Did we suddenly become one of the biggest Clubs in the country? Sure, if we reach Wembley, we get 40,000. And if we play in a major final for a big prize every home game, we might get 40,000.
What happened to realistic? What happened to shrewd? What happened to careful? How clever we seemed then.
We knew we could never sign a big star. Stars LEFT QPR for big clubs. We understood that. Once Bowles and Marsh and Ferdinand were really well established, their next move wouldn't be to a small Club, but to a big one.
Now Fernandes is talking about 'world class talent'. Why?
We used to let our results do the talking. And many of us were amazed at what we achieved. But we also knew that it was WITHIN our resources.
Sure, we can be a big club. If we are brilliant. If we perform stunningly for 15 years, finishing top four every year, we might conceivably get 40,000 and be able to fill a big ground.
But nobody knows how to do it. No small Club has done what we did in in the 1970s at all in the Premiership except once, Blackburn, but outspending the entire League.
When we were good, and clever, and amusing, and entertaining, it wasn't lack of ambition. Gregory signing (completely unnecessarily I thought) Dave Thomas for £165,000 (a VAST sum for QPR) showed, I think, that he thought we could go all the way.
But we couldn't keep it up. He knew that above all.
Nowadays, we decide in advance how good we're going to be. What our attendances will be in 5 years' time. What we'll spend whether there is a Bowles or a Ferdinand available or not. We're never ready to snap up a real bargain because we're committed to optimism, and optimism tells us that any player and any manager must be good enough, must be value, must be all that we would wish he would be.
We know it isn't true. We can see that the smaller clubs no longer win titles, no longer challenge at the top, because they long ago stopped being smart, being shrewd, being patient, and being realistic.
Realistic doesn't mean lacking ambition. It means knowing what it will take to fulfil those ambitions. And knowing which players and which managers HAVE what it takes.
And very few people, if any, know that in ADVANCE.
Repeated failures, and having to start all over again every season, is making us desperate in an unhealthy fashion. No-one says 'we obviously know nothing about football, let's learn the game'. Every chairman starts making decisions and announcements as soon as he arrives. No experience, no track record.
We're run by the tea boy. While the players and managers are run by professionals. They've been getting richer and richer and fat on failure for 40 years and more. Fewer Clubs than ever win the title now. But every second-rather is on tens of thousands of quid a WEEK.
Two bad results don't mean anything really. All they have to do is win and go on winning. Once, just poodling along for a few years while we slowly put together a set-up that might work is viable if we scale our ambitions back to the Club's true size.
But if we insist on talking and spending and thinking big-time, we need the kind of squad that big-time Clubs have, or a bloody GENIUS of a manager who can do for us what English managers used to do for smaller Clubs.
Bearing in mind that few of them (only Robson at Ipswich, really), ever did it for long. | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 16:43 - Aug 24 with 4229 views | Loft1979 |
| FFS Calm down on 15:37 - Aug 24 by Discodroid |
the bit where we went 4 nil down and then 90 seconds later traore failed to complete a simple 5 yard pass which went straight into touch really was a delight to behold.
just top class wan.kery .
no matter which way you cut it.
they hit the bar and squanderd at least three other golden chances, last ditch tackles , their center halves doing cryuff turns in our penalty area..
from what ive seen of leicester and burnley were a peter elliot to their ovett and coe in our little diamond league of survival. [Post edited 24 Aug 2014 15:38]
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Traore: last played for Arsenal in an epic loss..and was promptly jettisoned.
Sorry but he is not a defender. We cannot succeed with him. Better we had YSY.
Lots of options here going for, but Dunne, and Traore should not be in the defense.
Option 1 bring isla as a deep lying sweeper, in front of the back 2.
Option 2. Rotate Fer, JB and Ale as a middle 2.
Option 3. Vargas, Remy , Junior essentially are behind the loan striker. |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 16:46 - Aug 24 with 4203 views | paulparker |
| FFS Calm down on 16:40 - Aug 24 by essextaxiboy |
Have they played away to a top 6 side then ? |
Err Leicester have, and gave Chelsea a real game
Spurs ain't all that, we made the look good
Still at least Arry got a good round of applause |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| FFS Calm down on 17:18 - Aug 24 with 4123 views | wood_hoop |
| FFS Calm down on 16:42 - Aug 24 by Ingham |
It may be my imagination but aren't we (almost) always in this position? We need to give them time, and by next season, it's an entirely different squad, frequently a different manager, and no idea what, as a Club, we actually think we are.
Isn't it about time they gave themselves some time by performing at the level they're being paid at?
Are we a big club? Presumably not. But we spent £200 million on players the last time we were in the Premiership. (£120 million of losses plus the £80 million or so from TV). That can't be too far off the spend at Chelsea or City over a two year period when they won their various titles.
Once upon a time, we knew what we were.
We were an overperforming small Club. We developed some kind of nucleus of players in the youth system, and were often shrewd in signing players others couldn't cope with (Marsh and Bowles), veterans with class (Les Allen, Currie, Wilkins, Sansom), and real bargains like Brian Bedford, Phil Parkes, Les Ferdinand and so on. We got good players who were somewhat adrift, like Clive Wilson, or who were fleeing from the wreckage at a Club which had fallen apart in some way, or was in financial difficulties - Terry Fenwick, David Seaman and others - and sturdy club players we could make use of, like Simon Barker or Darren Peacock.
When it didn't quite come off, we had to wait. We cashed in, and - generally speaking, we did wait. Often we were forced to give someone less than wonderful a go, but we usually didn't spend too much on them, so there was money for a real bargain like Bowles or to pay the likes of Wilkins or Samson.
But now we're told we must move to a 40,000 capacity stadium. Why? Did we suddenly become one of the biggest Clubs in the country? Sure, if we reach Wembley, we get 40,000. And if we play in a major final for a big prize every home game, we might get 40,000.
What happened to realistic? What happened to shrewd? What happened to careful? How clever we seemed then.
We knew we could never sign a big star. Stars LEFT QPR for big clubs. We understood that. Once Bowles and Marsh and Ferdinand were really well established, their next move wouldn't be to a small Club, but to a big one.
Now Fernandes is talking about 'world class talent'. Why?
We used to let our results do the talking. And many of us were amazed at what we achieved. But we also knew that it was WITHIN our resources.
Sure, we can be a big club. If we are brilliant. If we perform stunningly for 15 years, finishing top four every year, we might conceivably get 40,000 and be able to fill a big ground.
But nobody knows how to do it. No small Club has done what we did in in the 1970s at all in the Premiership except once, Blackburn, but outspending the entire League.
When we were good, and clever, and amusing, and entertaining, it wasn't lack of ambition. Gregory signing (completely unnecessarily I thought) Dave Thomas for £165,000 (a VAST sum for QPR) showed, I think, that he thought we could go all the way.
But we couldn't keep it up. He knew that above all.
Nowadays, we decide in advance how good we're going to be. What our attendances will be in 5 years' time. What we'll spend whether there is a Bowles or a Ferdinand available or not. We're never ready to snap up a real bargain because we're committed to optimism, and optimism tells us that any player and any manager must be good enough, must be value, must be all that we would wish he would be.
We know it isn't true. We can see that the smaller clubs no longer win titles, no longer challenge at the top, because they long ago stopped being smart, being shrewd, being patient, and being realistic.
Realistic doesn't mean lacking ambition. It means knowing what it will take to fulfil those ambitions. And knowing which players and which managers HAVE what it takes.
And very few people, if any, know that in ADVANCE.
Repeated failures, and having to start all over again every season, is making us desperate in an unhealthy fashion. No-one says 'we obviously know nothing about football, let's learn the game'. Every chairman starts making decisions and announcements as soon as he arrives. No experience, no track record.
We're run by the tea boy. While the players and managers are run by professionals. They've been getting richer and richer and fat on failure for 40 years and more. Fewer Clubs than ever win the title now. But every second-rather is on tens of thousands of quid a WEEK.
Two bad results don't mean anything really. All they have to do is win and go on winning. Once, just poodling along for a few years while we slowly put together a set-up that might work is viable if we scale our ambitions back to the Club's true size.
But if we insist on talking and spending and thinking big-time, we need the kind of squad that big-time Clubs have, or a bloody GENIUS of a manager who can do for us what English managers used to do for smaller Clubs.
Bearing in mind that few of them (only Robson at Ipswich, really), ever did it for long. |
As usual Ingham a very eloquently post, a lot that I agree with, and as ever hard to cross swords with you on the points you make.
Unfortunately, for me at least,the game has changed immensly since the halycon days of before Sky and the other grave robbers moved in, not against 'live' football at all and for many a way to watch their team when finances etc rules out going to games, just the absolute power that the TV companies now yield and how their largesse has wrecked the chance for a smaller club to ever get to be 'king of the castle' .
Not just TV that has denied the much fairer competion that exsisted, those billionaires who fund clubs, another falacy maybe, who load enormous debts on clubs but supporters are never really quite sure if/when the bailiffs are called in, just who owns the debt.
Some things have moved too far away from the 'old' QPR to ever give the chance for our club to 'punch' above their weight, maybe a season or two yo yo ing between divisions is the best we can expect, the odd win against the 'big boys' is now lauded like winning the league out right.
Nothing wrong in having dreams but realism was long taken off the menu when it comes to running football clubs. | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 17:32 - Aug 24 with 4069 views | 08olesen |
The panic is not needed. We have a long way to go, and we simply made a mistake with personnel today. IMO Zamora should have started along side Remy, because we could not get out of our own half, and we needed someone to hold up the ball. Fer should also have been replaced by Faurlin in the starting 11.
We should not jump to change systems. We have just spent 20 odd million bringing in players, with the intention of playing 352 and so its worth the perseverance.
We need to get the players fit, because we looked leggy today. I would like to see Mutch and Fer start against Burton because they clearly need more minutes. Yun also should be given a go, because Traore was poor today.
Stay optimistic people, i know its a shiit result but its gonna be a tough season and if we are getting upset in game two, it does not bode well for the rest of the season, which is sure to produce similar results. |  |
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| FFS Calm down on 17:43 - Aug 24 with 4035 views | wood_hoop |
| FFS Calm down on 17:32 - Aug 24 by 08olesen |
The panic is not needed. We have a long way to go, and we simply made a mistake with personnel today. IMO Zamora should have started along side Remy, because we could not get out of our own half, and we needed someone to hold up the ball. Fer should also have been replaced by Faurlin in the starting 11.
We should not jump to change systems. We have just spent 20 odd million bringing in players, with the intention of playing 352 and so its worth the perseverance.
We need to get the players fit, because we looked leggy today. I would like to see Mutch and Fer start against Burton because they clearly need more minutes. Yun also should be given a go, because Traore was poor today.
Stay optimistic people, i know its a shiit result but its gonna be a tough season and if we are getting upset in game two, it does not bode well for the rest of the season, which is sure to produce similar results. |
Must be missing something, players not fit ? even those bought in from other clubs should be fit, maybe not quit up to speed an gelling with team mates but lacking energy ?
Our players looked jaded from the off, and the way Spurs so easily pushed the ball around us was a lot more than a lack of fitness, lack of skill more can be added.
If a player cannot keep in good shape during the break between seasons then they are not the 'right type' for our club, a few had played in the WC and perhaps a more valid excuse for being at only 95% of where they are at their peak, the rest beside those injured it should be 99.9%. | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 17:52 - Aug 24 with 4014 views | Juzzie |
I'm not panicking, just disappointed we gave in so easily. |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 18:51 - Aug 24 with 3933 views | essextaxiboy |
| FFS Calm down on 16:46 - Aug 24 by paulparker |
Err Leicester have, and gave Chelsea a real game
Spurs ain't all that, we made the look good
Still at least Arry got a good round of applause |
How did Leicester get on then ? | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 18:55 - Aug 24 with 3917 views | toboboly |
| FFS Calm down on 18:51 - Aug 24 by essextaxiboy |
How did Leicester get on then ? |
Mate, it's not the loss, it's the perceived lack of effort. Fair enough, you think today doesn't matter, you may be proven right come May. However for those paying circa £45 a ticket this was not an acceptable performance. For those of us who watched but didn't pay it wasn't acceptable. We have spent so long not being able to defend set pieces, so long not finding passes, so long looking disinterested it is becoming inexcusable. |  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
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| FFS Calm down on 19:09 - Aug 24 with 3880 views | essextaxiboy |
| FFS Calm down on 18:55 - Aug 24 by toboboly |
Mate, it's not the loss, it's the perceived lack of effort. Fair enough, you think today doesn't matter, you may be proven right come May. However for those paying circa £45 a ticket this was not an acceptable performance. For those of us who watched but didn't pay it wasn't acceptable. We have spent so long not being able to defend set pieces, so long not finding passes, so long looking disinterested it is becoming inexcusable. |
I was there today . So I am calling it how I saw it . | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 19:12 - Aug 24 with 3868 views | Ingham |
Yes, wood hoop, all very true what you say, I'm afraid.
The big numbers - the £60 million a club gets in the Premiership just for being there - fascinate the media, but make little difference to any Club, since every small Club gets the same money.
And the full grounds. If Arsenal weren't doing too well in the sixties, and weren't playing a big Club, they might get 25,000 or 30,000, in a ground that held 65,000 or more.
Now - in much smaller grounds with the exception of two or three clubs - they're often full.
And while everyone is on the gravy train except the supporters and the Clubs, there is little incentive to change it.
On the other hand, it is refreshing to have a range of opinions among supporters, who are affected by the madness, but who are the only ones who can be truly honest about it all.
We naturally hope for the best, want to win, and like to give a manager a chance to get a team together. What concerns me about this is not that supporters prefer optimism to criticism, but that it now seems to be how the directors, managers and players think and talk.
They just want to be flattered. And to pocket the cash. But what they can't do, unless they have real talent, know-how, experience and - these days also, I think - integrity, is to fulfil the promises they make so casually.
And, going back to the point of this thread, that, I think, is why criticism - even if it sometimes seems premature - is important.
The prospect of QPR being unceremoniously dumped in a huge stadium it can neither fill nor, I assume, afford, is terrifying. And not just to those of us who remember the last time we had the capacity but not the talent. Even under Gregory, White City would have been only half full even with the 31,000 that witnessed our top-of-the-league final game in 1976.
Merely doing well in the way we did under Thompson - poodling along in mid-table contentedly enough - won't get anywhere near making sense of a 40,000 capacity ground. Still less of a near £200 million debt. And even less so if Fernandes is correct in saying that his losses are related to that ground (quite what he means by that I don't know, as it isn't even built, and presumably won't be if he has already lost all the money).
It isn't just that this is too much for us to handle. It is - in my view - preventing us from developing a way of coping with the modern game.
I'm not pessimistic about that. There are so many badly run Clubs, overpaid poseurs playing for them, and clueless owners floundering about in their boardrooms, that there is still scope for more modest Clubs to perform impressively.
And even if they are restricted in what they can achieve by their size and resources, that was always the case.
But so are their supposedly all-powerful owners. None has been able to achieve sustained success at a small club, and most of them are discredited in very short order by the contradictions inherent in their own hype. They are far too easily taken in by imagined similarities between football and business, and the deceptive 'goodwill' of supporters, whose approval, as we know, is not a sign that we accept whatever they do because we think THEY'RE great, but a demand that they should do what WE want because WE'RE great.
None of them has ever worked out how to retain his initial popularity against a background of long-term failure. And all of them fall into the trap of promising success or improvement or good times where a more realistic attitude might well serve THEIR interests better as well as ours and the Club's.
Like you, I fear that most of them prefer fantasy, and if that is true of this lot, they would be well advised to take on board the comments of their critics, because otherwise, they'll be taking on board the consequences.
As I say, two poor results mean nothing. But even two excellent results wouldn't match up to the top four level of spending we've had. Arsenal built a ground on the basis that they would attract not one single supporter than they knew they already had, either in season ticket sales, or on the waiting list.
We're proposing a ground three times the size of our historical average attendance. At Manchester United, the same proportions would indicate a ground three times the size of the Maracana.
Excellent discussion, mate, good to talk, and in a good thread too. | | | |
| FFS Calm down on 19:14 - Aug 24 with 3859 views | LythamR |
| FFS Calm down on 18:55 - Aug 24 by toboboly |
Mate, it's not the loss, it's the perceived lack of effort. Fair enough, you think today doesn't matter, you may be proven right come May. However for those paying circa £45 a ticket this was not an acceptable performance. For those of us who watched but didn't pay it wasn't acceptable. We have spent so long not being able to defend set pieces, so long not finding passes, so long looking disinterested it is becoming inexcusable. |
The game was effectively lost in midfield, average cost of their midfielders is about 18M each, cost of ours?
The element that frustrated me most was the failure to display the most basic attributes of a professional football, the ability to pass and to put a challenge in, I know these players can pass and tackle and i am sure they were told to do that so there must have been a loss of concentration or a failure of application or both.
And yet these were the attributes that more than anything got us over the line back in May so whats gone wrong here? maybe its a one off
I dont expect our team to beat the likes of Spurs at home, I expect us to lose but not like today, that was poor regardless of the gulf in quality between the teams |  | | |
| FFS Calm down on 20:18 - Aug 24 with 3744 views | VancouverHoop |
Sometimes a torrid anal hammering, like today's, is needed. Better it comes now than after 20—30 matches. If we'd snuck a goal or two, say Phillips had scored, we'd be reassuring ourselves that with a couple more breaks we'd have been OK. But that would have been just papering over the cracks.
A lot of work needs to be done but it's too soon to be saying the system doesn't work or individual players are useless.
We were over-run in midfield which was composed of Barton, Fer in his first game and Mutch in his second, and, I guess, Matt Philips playing out of position. You know that won't continue to happen. They will gel eventually, and when they do it'll take pressure off the back five and open up space for the strikers. The first question is how long will it be before that happens? The second question is how long have we got before it needs to happen? I can't the answer to the first one, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're still pointless after our trip to Old Trafford. And, after ten games it'd be nice if we had three or four wins. That's the point when when we'll have a proper sense of what the season is going to look like. | | | |
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