| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback 11:59 - Dec 11 with 11721 views | union_jack |
I have already posted briefly about this on the 'Jenkins Petition' thread but I'd like to encourage others to be aware of what the group' s fundamental aims are and hopefully get more people involved.
Four of us attended at The Landore Club before the WBA game just to get a feel for what we should be doing. It was clear from the start that there is a need for a group and that the attendees (Vetchfielder, ATFV, myself and Phil) were all enthusiastic to see it happen.
We agreed early on that this should group should not be seen as a discrete group going off on its own without involving other similar minded groups. This of course meant The Trust in the main but also amongst others The Union. This will give us a collective strength and will not work if there is in-fighting. I have read on the aforementioned thread today that The Union's aim of ousting 'the regime' regardless of our league position is in complete harmony with ours. And that is the first and most fundamental raison d'être of the ISG (I'll call it that for now but touch on it later).
The Trust are undoubtedly hamstrung in what they can say publically. Whether we agree with that or not is a matter of debate but if we take that as a given then it gives the ISG the opportunity to go public and voice fans' opinions legitimately. For that to be successful we will need to use every available communication source available to us. Nigel is committed to using ATFV as one vessel and there are other similar publications but we also need to get the press and media to listen.
With regards to the latter, there is very much a 'hunting with the foxes, running with the hares' approach from the local press / media which means the real problems at SCFC are not being aired publically. We talked about how many in the ground on Saturday are aware of the goings on both past and present. If I took a punt at 40% of the crowd, that may be optimistic I reckon. Only by making people aware can we open their eyes and in turn create a mass large enough to make the present sell-out members of the board so uncomfortable they will contemplate their own futures. The message must come out loud and clear and to be more successful we mustn't restrict ourselves to local media. We need to get out to a wider audience via national TV and newspapers who have no axe to grind.
For this to happen the ISG will need to be respected and have gravitas. That can only be achieved with a well known respected head of the group and that will be Phil Sumbler. Phil has an unrivalled working knowledge of The Trust, the club itself and connections with the media.
Now, the name of the group is something we need to get sorted asap because then we can get a website up and running and do whatever we need to do with social media.
I am sure Phil will give free, lifetime membership to Planet Swans (unless you are banned or the site ceases to exist, T&Cs apply) for anyone coming up with a catchy title that isn't coarse or uncouth!!! My creative juices have run dry.
I know there were others planning to come on the day but for a number of reasons were unable to attend. However, if anyone is enthusiastic enough to want to attend and get involved just pm Phil and he'll put you on the email list. Alternatively, put your suggestions, ideas or views on here so we can all discuss.
Just to conclude, although the primary aim is to cleanse the club of its core problems, it will have a number of other objectives as time goes on. These could include ticket pricing, disabled parking, Vice Presidents seating and / or any other issues that fans may see as ruining their match day experience.
I hope we all get behind it.
Tim
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:39 - Dec 11 with 1830 views | Phil_S |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 16:41 - Dec 11 by MoscowJack |
I understand the sentiment and reasoning behind the ISG but I believe it's masking over the real problems which are (1) the current shambles we're in (off and on the pitch) as a club and (2) how to make the Trust less toothless and stuffy.
I genuinely believe that people like the 'three fresh faces' who've put themselves up for the Trust Board from here will, just by their presence, force the Trust Board to take notice of the things that people far more intelligent than I have penned on this forum. We need to ensure that they are co-opted or, if not, the people who are have the same desire, passion, tenacity and willingness to ask the most awkward of questions as they do. It's not just people on the Trust Board that should be screening potential Board members but also the Trust Members should be questioning why certain people are brought in or kept in too.
As someone else pointed out, the ISG has no money, no identity (yet!) and no real target to hit (as far as I can see). That makes it hard to know where to start.
At least the Trust has 21% (for now!!!) and quite a lot of money in the bank (relatively) so I'd far rather see the Trust taken-over by fresh blood than something new started from scratch.
Also, there might only be 4 seats up for grabs now, but who's to say that some won't walk when the likes of Chris, Lisa etc get going? I would actually hope that some of them do as it will allow for more fresh blood to join. The Trust needs certain people to stay (or return even!) to allow for solid continuity in SOME areas, but a good shake up and re-direction could actually save the Trust from the abyss that I see them heading very quickly towards.
Just my opinion, of course..... |
The main gist for me is simple Nick
I see the ISG (lets lose that title soon!) as the voice of the fans in the public domain vocally making sure the views are known (a bit like the FSF do as an example) and the Trust as the voice in the boardroom looking after the governance side that only a shareholder/board member should do
In an ideal world the Trust would do both but I do believe as a shareholder it makes it doubly difficult for them. Now new people may change that and if they do then no issue at all but unless that happens then why not make the plans to ensure that it happens
But to make it work it needs people onside and as many people as possible involved in shaping it. Even if long term (or even short or immediate term) they also want to be on the Trust board. |  | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:41 - Dec 11 with 1821 views | E20Jack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:35 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
Just on this one you have an interesting last statement as that is in contradiction to what Monny wants for example as he would go legal which could mean sale of all shares
I do think on the share sale right now then it would be an interesting split and I am not sure that an independent group could call it one way or another,
What the independent group could do is request the trust to return to the members for a vote before any deal is signed. But that would still be a board decision ultimately I guess (for them not the ISG) |
Yes you are correct on this. So many confused opinions that often contradict with no clear path to a utopian end goal.
The Trust presumably (you could answer this better than most) wishes to take a deal it clearly feels undervalues its shares in order to maintain a working relationship and a voice within the club... yet it is signing over drag rights which puts that decision in someone elses hands.
So what argument is for the deal exactly? I can honestly think of no benefits at all, and I have tried, I promise you. |  |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:41 - Dec 11 with 1822 views | monmouth |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:06 - Dec 11 by ATFV |
Thanks for summing things up with a thoughtful OP Tim.
I just want to plant my stake in the ground as one of the “four self appointed” people that were there Saturday. I’m happy to be an ally of the Trust but I won’t be part of anything that blindly supports it. I weighed up applying for a co-opted place on the Trust Board but ultimately decided against it as I’d rather continue to be an outspoken member at this particular time. The decision was made easier by the surprising volume of applications and I’m under no illusion that most if not all were more suitable than me anyway!
Doing the vocal stuff that the Trust can’t is one of the reasons I’ve shown interest in this idea - and that’s borne out of the utter contempt I have for those that sold us and put the long term future of our club at great risk.
Equally, I shall turn up at Thursday’s Trust Members Forum and make it abundantly clear that we should halt all negotiations over a share sale and have a new vote. This takes into consideration the repeat offending of the lack of good faith the Americans display when conducting their business and our less favourable terms as we look well vulnerable to a relegation.
The short version of all of that above is that I’m well up for having a go at anyone that damages the Swans... |
That is much more in line with my own view.
If the new group disagrees with the Trust, it must set out the alternatives loudly and clearly, so that there are no cosy or gerrymandered decisions or invisible deals.
The Trust aims to represent only its members (which I think is a mistake), so this new group must be concerned with AND REACH the huge HUGE majority that are not Trust Members, or it is pointless. |  |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:10 - Dec 11 with 1764 views | max936 |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 15:30 - Dec 11 by union_jack |
Fair point.
I can only say that by working with the Trust, who have a board presence through the SD, then the club board will know that any actions the Trust disagree with will end up in the open. But it won't be the Trust who Will be putting it out there. There would be no official link.
The Americans especially hate bad publicity and will want to avoid it. It may give the Trust more of a say at board level.
Don't forget, this is a two way communication process. If the majority of fans want a certain course of action that the Trust does not, then the ISG will feed information in that direction. If there is still disagreement then each case would need to be looked at individually.
The selling of the shares issue aside, and yes I appreciate this is a huge point, I would see the Trust and other groups being very much on the same side. Maybe it is a case that another body tackles this crucial issue whereas the ISG works in tandem with the Trust for the long term good of the club.
This is all about discussion and it would be appreciated if the dialogue on here doesn't descend into an all out shouting match (which to now it certainly hasn't). |
How do you know that the Trust will want a working relationship with ISG? to me they wouldn't want their cosy little nesting's with the club disrupted the SD is a joke not once have we heard from him and I'll be quite surprised if they don't distance themselves from ISG.
As for at LONG LAST singing what has gone on from the roof tops, is exactly what's needed and pressure should be brought to bare on stopping any agreement on the Trust share sale being signed off, although I expect that'll be done ASAP now before you can chuck any spanners into the works. |  |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:27 - Dec 11 with 1724 views | max936 |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 17:14 - Dec 11 by union_jack |
It was clarified above, and I apologised for the confusion, that the relationship between the Trust and the ISG would be one of knowing what eachother were doing. In the main, these should be the same but there may be times when there is a conflict and that would need to be dealt with in the appropriate manner.
Neath, don't think we've just gone ahead and firmed something up. That's not the case other than to have the most effective group, it will need to be done with the Trust knowing what we are doing and vice versa.
If it has no mileage at the end if the day then so be it. It is certainly not an ego trip for me nor would I suggest the others there on Saturday.
If you want to get involved, then pm Phil. You'd be very welcome as would anybody who cares about our club. |
Union, I'd tread carefully on informing the Trust on the intensions of ISG at this moment in time, there's a common trait running through the club and it might extend to one or two of the Trust board, I'm sure you get my meaning. | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:43 - Dec 11 with 1702 views | Garyjack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:27 - Dec 11 by max936 |
Union, I'd tread carefully on informing the Trust on the intensions of ISG at this moment in time, there's a common trait running through the club and it might extend to one or two of the Trust board, I'm sure you get my meaning. |
In fairness Max, any group that aims to be pro active can hardly keep their aims a secret can they?  |  | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:53 - Dec 11 with 1675 views | E20Jack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:41 - Dec 11 by E20Jack |
Yes you are correct on this. So many confused opinions that often contradict with no clear path to a utopian end goal.
The Trust presumably (you could answer this better than most) wishes to take a deal it clearly feels undervalues its shares in order to maintain a working relationship and a voice within the club... yet it is signing over drag rights which puts that decision in someone elses hands.
So what argument is for the deal exactly? I can honestly think of no benefits at all, and I have tried, I promise you. |
Phil, could you shed any light on this? | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:03 - Dec 11 with 1659 views | homeiswheretrundleis |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:39 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
The main gist for me is simple Nick
I see the ISG (lets lose that title soon!) as the voice of the fans in the public domain vocally making sure the views are known (a bit like the FSF do as an example) and the Trust as the voice in the boardroom looking after the governance side that only a shareholder/board member should do
In an ideal world the Trust would do both but I do believe as a shareholder it makes it doubly difficult for them. Now new people may change that and if they do then no issue at all but unless that happens then why not make the plans to ensure that it happens
But to make it work it needs people onside and as many people as possible involved in shaping it. Even if long term (or even short or immediate term) they also want to be on the Trust board. |
Hi Phil
How about calling yourselves TOGGS
Together Group Swansea |  | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:22 - Dec 11 with 1620 views | Phil_S |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:53 - Dec 11 by E20Jack |
Phil, could you shed any light on this? |
Its not for me to say as I have publically said that right now I would vote against the deal because for me the working relationship broke down when the terms were suggested to be changed after negotiations should have ceased | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:24 - Dec 11 with 1614 views | Phil_S |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:03 - Dec 11 by homeiswheretrundleis |
Hi Phil
How about calling yourselves TOGGS
Together Group Swansea |
Its as good as anything else Ive heard! | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:30 - Dec 11 with 1583 views | monmouth |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:28 - Dec 11 by Garyjack |
It's pointless PM'ing me Max. I've been left out of the group because Matt misspelt my e-mail address!  |
Just ask Matt for an invite mun. | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:32 - Dec 11 with 1571 views | E20Jack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:22 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
Its not for me to say as I have publically said that right now I would vote against the deal because for me the working relationship broke down when the terms were suggested to be changed after negotiations should have ceased |
Okay I will change the question slightly then.
It appears you now think this is a bad idea due to a breakdown in trust between the Trust and the Americans. So assuming they did not attempt to re-negotiate then you would still be for it?...
So do you not see conceding drag rights as counter productive for that aim? Clearly you should see that thinking the Americans are long term owners is fanciful at best?
Just trying to see the benefits behind it. Not having a dig, genuinely trying to understand the other side of the coin and these people's motivation behind doing this deal. You are best placed to ask as you must have had the same thought process pre re-negotiation attempt. [Post edited 11 Dec 2017 20:38]
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:33 - Dec 11 with 1571 views | homeiswheretrundleis |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:24 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
Its as good as anything else Ive heard! |
Thanks
And good luck to you all
TOGGS | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:33 - Dec 11 with 1564 views | Phil_S |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:28 - Dec 11 by Garyjack |
It's pointless PM'ing me Max. I've been left out of the group because Matt misspelt my e-mail address! |
I wondered why you were so quiet :D | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:37 - Dec 11 with 1546 views | Garyjack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:30 - Dec 11 by monmouth |
Just ask Matt for an invite mun. |
Ok i will.
Matt! Add me again you tvvat! It's Jacddrwg, not Fvckin Jackddrwg! It's meant to be Welsh, not a mixture of Welsh and English you knob!
Thanks Mon. | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:38 - Dec 11 with 1544 views | union_jack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 19:10 - Dec 11 by max936 |
How do you know that the Trust will want a working relationship with ISG? to me they wouldn't want their cosy little nesting's with the club disrupted the SD is a joke not once have we heard from him and I'll be quite surprised if they don't distance themselves from ISG.
As for at LONG LAST singing what has gone on from the roof tops, is exactly what's needed and pressure should be brought to bare on stopping any agreement on the Trust share sale being signed off, although I expect that'll be done ASAP now before you can chuck any spanners into the works. |
I said earlier Max that I mistakingly misled you with the 'working relationship'. It will be a case of knowing what eachother are doing.
I think Phil has had some indication that the group would be seen as an asset and nothing negative.
It is early days though and a lot of relationship building will be needed. | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:40 - Dec 11 with 1528 views | Garyjack |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:33 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
I wondered why you were so quiet :D |
I've sent two mails Phil but they only go to two people, Matt and someone else who he spelt their address wrong!  | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:40 - Dec 11 with 1527 views | Thornburyswan |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 18:35 - Dec 11 by Phil_S |
Just on this one you have an interesting last statement as that is in contradiction to what Monny wants for example as he would go legal which could mean sale of all shares
I do think on the share sale right now then it would be an interesting split and I am not sure that an independent group could call it one way or another,
What the independent group could do is request the trust to return to the members for a vote before any deal is signed. But that would still be a board decision ultimately I guess (for them not the ISG) |
Thanks for responding Phil, I'm a long way from being an expert on this but will admit (I'll probably regret it!) that, as a Trust member, I voted for the sale on the basis that I bought into the "Trust will then have a decent pot to step back in if . . . . Happens" - following the last few months & from an external viewpoint I would vote differently now hence my suggestion & support of MoscowJack's points.
Not sure how many Trust members need to support an EGM to revisit that campaign & vote but that route would be step 1 for me - in my eyes it would also crucially be an opportunity for the Trust to regain credibility in my (& I suspect) a lot of other fans eyes. | | | |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:41 - Dec 11 with 1524 views | monmouth |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:37 - Dec 11 by Garyjack |
Ok i will.
Matt! Add me again you tvvat! It's Jacddrwg, not Fvckin Jackddrwg! It's meant to be Welsh, not a mixture of Welsh and English you knob!
Thanks Mon. |
I meant by emailing him.
I'm weak here. | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 21:44 - Dec 11 with 1468 views | max936 |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 20:38 - Dec 11 by union_jack |
I said earlier Max that I mistakingly misled you with the 'working relationship'. It will be a case of knowing what eachother are doing.
I think Phil has had some indication that the group would be seen as an asset and nothing negative.
It is early days though and a lot of relationship building will be needed. |
Well that's encouraging at least, like I said if there's anything that I might be able to help with, Pm me and I'll pass my contact details on, notsure how much time I'll be able to spare, but will play that as it comes. | |
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| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 09:03 - Dec 12 with 1323 views | MattG |
| Independent Supporters' Group - Saturday's Meeting Feedback on 09:00 - Dec 12 by Phil_S |
Talk about passing the buck 😂 |
Well if you will shoehorn yourself into a leadership role....! |  | | |
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