| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 44904 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:50 - Dec 12 with 1915 views | hopphoops |
I think these threads depress everyone, I should follow LBLock's aim and stop fueling Brexit chat. All I can say is I will be leaning heavily on you all for the cheese-related questions in the Swiss naturalization test. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:51 - Dec 12 with 1914 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:48 - Dec 12 by CroydonCaptJack |
This is my big problem with the EU.
I get the Economic benefits and that is why we joined but the Europeans want to run Europe politically as well which we didn't sign up for. |
It’d be nice to have someone running the UK politically |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:53 - Dec 12 with 1901 views | Sharpy36 |
It does make to laugh when i see posters implying that our nation will self destruct if we were to go to WTO rules, remember it`s a two way street. If we had the right person in charge from the outset this would have been our bargaining chip and today not only would we have left the EU, we would have left with one of the best trade deals on the planet. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:56 - Dec 12 with 1890 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:36 - Dec 12 by BostonR |
Bang on!
JRM and his ERG cronies have no interest in the "common man". They are independently wealthy and will be fine but sod the rest of us. It's no coincidence that the EU members are now openly trying to rescue us from a no-deal - they know the consequences for our economy and day-to-day living. This is on a par with the financial crash but with other elements added in. |
If only we lived in a democracy and could vote for the government say every five years. I'm old enough to remember the time before we joined the EU although at the time it was called the common market. How we all gave thanks that there was something that could now look after us
and we were going to join them after all the years of misery. The only thing that surprised me at the time was how the powers that be that presided over the persecution of all of us in the country at the time gave up their power to such an egalitarian organisation although of course somebody called de Gaulle tried to stop it |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:56 - Dec 12 with 1892 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:46 - Dec 12 by robith |
The problems we face are of Cameron (and now May's making).
In his hubris he asked a binary question on a multifaceted option issue that has left everyone saying whatever they stand for is what people voted for.
Then May compounded it by calling that election and losing a majority so now there isn't a parliamentary majority for anything either. She's now stalling because she know once she puts a deal down that the Tories hate enough Labour can no confidence her and trigger a general election.
It's actually been pretty savvy of them to hold off because one thing that seems to evade the #FBPE crew is that to call a second referendum you kinda have to be the prime minister? Like Anna Soubray calling Labour cowards for not doing it, then 30 seconds later saying she'd vote against them if they did! If Labour had gone hard remain, May's deal would've passed, or she'd call another election and win the majority back (the referendum results transfers poorly constituency wise for remain).
I'm very skeptical about a second referendum. First of all, remain's argument hasn't adjusted, if anything, is worse. It's essentially "I'm smarter than you". They've doubled down and the EU is now apparently perfect and the cause of all progressive success. Which is untrue, and ineffective as it doesn't tarry with people's feelings. They'd have a sharp shock when leave wins again.
But say remain did win, they've made a rod for their own back. Their argument that it is democracy and people can change their mind cuts both ways. Say Remain wins 52-48 this time? Leave would be perfectly entitled to continue to railroad the political system for another vote. They'd need to win 65+ and they won't get that, especially as the DUP have tried to turn it into a sectarian issue in NI.
My best case is May eventually brings a deal, it's defeated, we have a GE, Corbs gets in, we leave staying in the customs union and have a government that can start to address the staggering inequality that is holding this country back and start to re-balance the economy that we'll need outside the EU |
Re a second referendum, perhaps make this one binding? The first one was I believe advisory. We also now do have a more specific set of choices to put forward, and at least more information for people to use to come to a decision | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:02 - Dec 12 with 1865 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:53 - Dec 12 by Sharpy36 |
It does make to laugh when i see posters implying that our nation will self destruct if we were to go to WTO rules, remember it`s a two way street. If we had the right person in charge from the outset this would have been our bargaining chip and today not only would we have left the EU, we would have left with one of the best trade deals on the planet. |
You'd better volunteer your services. Brexit Bulldog David Davis told us it would be the 'easiest deal in history'...
That went well.
It beggars belief that some people really believe we can withdraw from a major trading bloc, paying f*ck all in the process and be in a better position economically. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 with 1853 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:53 - Dec 12 by Sharpy36 |
It does make to laugh when i see posters implying that our nation will self destruct if we were to go to WTO rules, remember it`s a two way street. If we had the right person in charge from the outset this would have been our bargaining chip and today not only would we have left the EU, we would have left with one of the best trade deals on the planet. |
I take it you're not in the trade negotiations game? | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 with 1853 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:56 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
Re a second referendum, perhaps make this one binding? The first one was I believe advisory. We also now do have a more specific set of choices to put forward, and at least more information for people to use to come to a decision |
problem is a second vote would be close again, possibly 52/48 the other way so nothing would be resolved. |  | | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:10 - Dec 12 with 1832 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:51 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
It’d be nice to have someone running the UK politically |
They are all as incompetent as each other but the creeping political control from Europe is what a lot of people voted out for. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:14 - Dec 12 with 1813 views | CamberleyR |
Dominic Sandbrook spot on as usual. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 with 1806 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 by daveB |
problem is a second vote would be close again, possibly 52/48 the other way so nothing would be resolved. |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:20 - Dec 12 with 1789 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:02 - Dec 12 by Mytch_QPR |
You'd better volunteer your services. Brexit Bulldog David Davis told us it would be the 'easiest deal in history'...
That went well.
It beggars belief that some people really believe we can withdraw from a major trading bloc, paying f*ck all in the process and be in a better position economically. |
The EU is not a trading block it is a political union. I can understand having to pay to leave for ongoing things that we have committed to politically but why would we have to pay to leave a free trade area. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:21 - Dec 12 with 1786 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 by Cliff |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |
Just for fun there should also be a 'Unicorn Option' for the loonies who keep thinking we can go to the EU, refuse to pay anything and then have it all as good - or better - than we used to have - if that option wins then RJM can pedal over to Brussels on his penny farthing and give them a good hiding. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:23 - Dec 12 with 1779 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:21 - Dec 12 by Mytch_QPR |
Just for fun there should also be a 'Unicorn Option' for the loonies who keep thinking we can go to the EU, refuse to pay anything and then have it all as good - or better - than we used to have - if that option wins then RJM can pedal over to Brussels on his penny farthing and give them a good hiding. |
Are you James O'Brien in disguise [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:27]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:27 - Dec 12 with 1758 views | Sharpy36 |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 by hopphoops |
I take it you're not in the trade negotiations game? |
Far from it, but it`s plain to see to everyone that the negotiation team set off from a weak vantage point from the get go. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:28 - Dec 12 with 1756 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:23 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
Are you James O'Brien in disguise [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:27]
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To be fair, I don't know who he is - I'll have a google on it! | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:30 - Dec 12 with 1749 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:27 - Dec 12 by Sharpy36 |
Far from it, but it`s plain to see to everyone that the negotiation team set off from a weak vantage point from the get go. |
Negotiations are between groups who want different things. Our negotiation teams weak point was that they wanted the same thing as the group they were negotiating with | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:31 - Dec 12 with 1742 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:28 - Dec 12 by Mytch_QPR |
To be fair, I don't know who he is - I'll have a google on it! |
He'd hate to think there is somebody who does not know who he is. His ego will go into meltdown | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:35 - Dec 12 with 1732 views | PinnerPaul |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:20 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
The EU is not a trading block it is a political union. I can understand having to pay to leave for ongoing things that we have committed to politically but why would we have to pay to leave a free trade area. |
Read that article I posted John
A leaver, not a remoaner or a member of project fear says tariffs on imported EU goods will range from 10 - 100%.
To appease the other 27 members how could the EU treat us the same as their members - common sense tells you that they won't/can't. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:38 - Dec 12 with 1725 views | Sharpy36 |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:02 - Dec 12 by Mytch_QPR |
You'd better volunteer your services. Brexit Bulldog David Davis told us it would be the 'easiest deal in history'...
That went well.
It beggars belief that some people really believe we can withdraw from a major trading bloc, paying f*ck all in the process and be in a better position economically. |
On your first point. He was talking about the trade deal. What`s being discussed at present is the withdrawal agreement, and yes any future trade deal with the EU would be quick to implement as we are using or have in place the systems to achieve frictionless trade.
And your second point, i would suggest that a large proportion of leavers voted for "Leave" not half leave or leave just a few bits here and there, but Leave and trade deals with the EU were one of the last things they cared about. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:38 - Dec 12 with 1724 views | PinnerPaul |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 by daveB |
problem is a second vote would be close again, possibly 52/48 the other way so nothing would be resolved. |
I think you're right Dave and that's with only 2 options, if you start giving people more choices - perhaps May Brexit v No deal Brexit v Remain - then the chance of a clear majority for any one option lessens. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:39 - Dec 12 with 1718 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:35 - Dec 12 by PinnerPaul |
Read that article I posted John
A leaver, not a remoaner or a member of project fear says tariffs on imported EU goods will range from 10 - 100%.
To appease the other 27 members how could the EU treat us the same as their members - common sense tells you that they won't/can't. |
I misunderstood I thought the poster was referring to a one off payment to leave a trading block and not to possible ongoing tariffs [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:40]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:42 - Dec 12 with 1705 views | PinnerPaul |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:39 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
I misunderstood I thought the poster was referring to a one off payment to leave a trading block and not to possible ongoing tariffs [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:40]
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Fair enough
As I've said before, the blindingly obvious, 'correct' solution just isn't there - hence the chaos! | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:45 - Dec 12 with 1692 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 by Cliff |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |
So you’re splitting the leave vote in half, how will that work fairly |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:46 - Dec 12 with 1688 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:38 - Dec 12 by PinnerPaul |
I think you're right Dave and that's with only 2 options, if you start giving people more choices - perhaps May Brexit v No deal Brexit v Remain - then the chance of a clear majority for any one option lessens. |
Nail on head. Imagine 3 options then if remain won it could be with less votes than leave won in the previous vote. Even worse if we have the Vince Cable idea of leave not being on the ballot paper. | | | |
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