| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 14:40 - Feb 21 with 819 views | dirk_doone |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 14:25 - Feb 21 by this_charming_man |
This stuff about fans demanding we buy buy buy is utter bo11ocks
The majority of fans are quite rightly p1ssed off with why we have to sell to buy players after 8 years of premier league money. To put it down to having to pay agents fees aand
Bonuses like you have done in the past is quite frankly laughable, as every single other club has to pay these too.
If we genuinely have to rely on selling our best players to generate cash to plug the holes in the squad then it ultimately proves the much lauded self sustainable model has failed.
I always remember your criticism of Cortese that he was more interested in profit that success on the football pitch and no one wants to see an open top bus parade with a profit cheque being waved. Yet now you appear to be endorsing just that as the club posts £70m profit the last two transfer windows but consistently fail to address major issues in the team [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 14:58]
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Spot on. What most fans want is not for us to spend a lot of money on new players but to stop selling our best ones, although it's a bit after the horse has bolted now as we've already sold most of them.
If we'd just made a bit more effort to keep Fonte, Tadic and Cedric, it would have been something. It's predictable that we are going to sell one or two more of our best players in the summer, even though we don't have to. [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 14:46]
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:16 - Feb 22 with 751 views | dirk_doone |
He meant the five stooges: Carrillo, Hoedt, Lemina, Danso & Vestergaard. | |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:24 - Feb 22 with 748 views | SaintNick |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 14:40 - Feb 21 by dirk_doone |
Spot on. What most fans want is not for us to spend a lot of money on new players but to stop selling our best ones, although it's a bit after the horse has bolted now as we've already sold most of them.
If we'd just made a bit more effort to keep Fonte, Tadic and Cedric, it would have been something. It's predictable that we are going to sell one or two more of our best players in the summer, even though we don't have to. [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 14:46]
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"If we'd just made a bit more effort to keep Fonte, Tadic and Cedric"
This is rewriting history in order to make it fit your opinion.
Fonte had signed a new contract in November 2015 along with a big statement about how happy he was with the deal and wanted to stay with the club for the rest of his career, yet 9 months later he was demanding a move to Manchester United in the press before he had even returned to pre season training after the euros.
Despite the fact that he had signed a new deal we still offered to improve it, but that wasn't good enough, why ? because his agent was wheeling and dealing with his other client the new Manchester United manager
Suddenly Fonte was chasing money. Saints did all they could to keep him, but he wasn't interested, right at the end he could have still stayed, but he preferred to go to West Ham and a pay day than play in our League cup semi final and the chance of Wembley.
Tadic's form was patchy at Saints the fans were on his back, it was Tadic that wanted to go and had said so long before the end of the season.
I cant believe that you are citing Cedric as a player we didn't do enough to keep, Cedric said 18 months ago that he wanted to leave the club, he was out of favour when Hasenhuttl arrived and we tried to sell him to Inter and loaned him out.
We couldn't sell him in the summer so he had to stay and see out his contract, but we have managed to get him out on loan and at least get some return on our outlay.
The Fonte & Van Dijk sagas showed that it doesn't matter if you want to keep a player, doesn't matter if he has a long term contract, if he wants to go then he will engineer the move.
Do you honestly think we didn't want to sell Van Dijk ? or for that matter Lallana, Lovren and a host of others, in your mind they seemed to have been dragged kicking and screaming out of the club demanding to stay and play for half the money at Liverpool.
Of course the fans want these players to stay, but this is the Premier League money talks, as Van Dijk showed us but you seem to have forgot, it is not as simplistic as you would have us believe |  |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:27 - Feb 22 with 745 views | SaintNick |
No sign of Krueger either, it is a new regime, in other news Lawrie McMenemy has promised we will win the upcoming League cup final, 41 years later still no sign | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:31 - Feb 22 with 741 views | this_charming_man |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:27 - Feb 22 by SaintNick |
No sign of Krueger either, it is a new regime, in other news Lawrie McMenemy has promised we will win the upcoming League cup final, 41 years later still no sign |
Maybe the failure to deliver the five pledges on time were the final nail in Kruger’s coffin. After all they were still 16 months late when he left. |  |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:56 - Feb 22 with 726 views | dirk_doone |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:24 - Feb 22 by SaintNick |
"If we'd just made a bit more effort to keep Fonte, Tadic and Cedric"
This is rewriting history in order to make it fit your opinion.
Fonte had signed a new contract in November 2015 along with a big statement about how happy he was with the deal and wanted to stay with the club for the rest of his career, yet 9 months later he was demanding a move to Manchester United in the press before he had even returned to pre season training after the euros.
Despite the fact that he had signed a new deal we still offered to improve it, but that wasn't good enough, why ? because his agent was wheeling and dealing with his other client the new Manchester United manager
Suddenly Fonte was chasing money. Saints did all they could to keep him, but he wasn't interested, right at the end he could have still stayed, but he preferred to go to West Ham and a pay day than play in our League cup semi final and the chance of Wembley.
Tadic's form was patchy at Saints the fans were on his back, it was Tadic that wanted to go and had said so long before the end of the season.
I cant believe that you are citing Cedric as a player we didn't do enough to keep, Cedric said 18 months ago that he wanted to leave the club, he was out of favour when Hasenhuttl arrived and we tried to sell him to Inter and loaned him out.
We couldn't sell him in the summer so he had to stay and see out his contract, but we have managed to get him out on loan and at least get some return on our outlay.
The Fonte & Van Dijk sagas showed that it doesn't matter if you want to keep a player, doesn't matter if he has a long term contract, if he wants to go then he will engineer the move.
Do you honestly think we didn't want to sell Van Dijk ? or for that matter Lallana, Lovren and a host of others, in your mind they seemed to have been dragged kicking and screaming out of the club demanding to stay and play for half the money at Liverpool.
Of course the fans want these players to stay, but this is the Premier League money talks, as Van Dijk showed us but you seem to have forgot, it is not as simplistic as you would have us believe |
The money wasted on all of the stooges would have been much, much more than enough to keep some of the better players we already had here.
Do you honestly think our owners don't want to sell our best players like van Dijk? Of course they do. The only reason his sale was delayed was that Gao wouldn't part with his cash to Kat if she sold any more players before he took over. And they'll be selling one or two more in the summer. [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 10:00]
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:12 - Feb 22 with 709 views | SaintNick |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 14:25 - Feb 21 by this_charming_man |
This stuff about fans demanding we buy buy buy is utter bo11ocks
The majority of fans are quite rightly p1ssed off with why we have to sell to buy players after 8 years of premier league money. To put it down to having to pay agents fees aand
Bonuses like you have done in the past is quite frankly laughable, as every single other club has to pay these too.
If we genuinely have to rely on selling our best players to generate cash to plug the holes in the squad then it ultimately proves the much lauded self sustainable model has failed.
I always remember your criticism of Cortese that he was more interested in profit that success on the football pitch and no one wants to see an open top bus parade with a profit cheque being waved. Yet now you appear to be endorsing just that as the club posts £70m profit the last two transfer windows but consistently fail to address major issues in the team [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 14:58]
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Right
1. The fans are hacked off because we have bought badly, to a degree they accept that players have to be sold, the problem is who we have replaced them with
2. The sell to buy claim is utter b8llocks, the last few years we have only sold players who have not been nailed on first teamers aside from Virgil Van Dijk, him aside it was July 2016 and Sadio Mane we truly lost a player who we wanted to keep
3. The Premier league money clouds the issue, things have moved on, take out the big six and the difference between finishing 7 and 17th is £20 million, the ability to spend is not Premier League money, it is about your ability to generate income from your supporter base, that means that a club like us will struggle against clubs like West Ham, Everton, Newcastle, Villa who have a bigger supporter base, ironically all still filling their grounds when they have fought relegation for the last couple of years, no excuses from their fan bases there.
Big fan bases generate the extra money for transfers, not just through gate money but sponsorship and other things.
Our accounts are transparent, we will see the latest in the next month or so, then we can comment again, but they show what we get, agents fees and bonus's are all part of the cost's yet so are running a big stadium, a big training ground and the non playing staff, that all has to come out of the Premier League money and other income.
Given our biggest outlay is players wages, around £70 million that is a big chunk of the Premier League money
Our problems are down to the number of players we have out on loan, we paid big fees for them big wages and they havent worked out (although interestingly they all seem to be in demand at their loan clubs) If we have to sell to buy it is because we have £80 million of signings not playing for us, unlike Liverpool we cant just write that amount off and spend another £80 millon to replace them.
So the self sustainabe model is not failing as we are in mid table and still in the Premier League, but like any model it is reliant on being worked well, we have spent badly so we have to slow down readjust and adapt for a while. The spending model doesn't always work, Fulham spent millions, Villa did, Everton have spent far more since they poached Koeman, yet haven't done much better than us have they.
My criticism of Cortese was never that he was interested in profit, if you read back I was always saying that he was wasting money on car parking barriers and overspending on the training ground etc, so you need to do a bit of research there
Lets look at the last seasons expenditure roughly speaking
19/20
Ins - Ings, Adams Djenepo £52 million
Outs Austin, Targett, Gallagher & Clasie £20 million
18/19
Ins
Gunn Vestergaard, Elyounoussi Armstrong £51 million
Outs
Gabbiadini, Tadic £20 million
17/18
Ins Lemina, Hoedt, Bednarek, Carrillo £60 million
Outs Van Dijk, Rodriguez £87 million
So in the last three seasons the total transfer outlay has been £131 million and the money brought in £127 million, I might be a few million out here but even if we allow a 10% leeway thats not much
So truth is in 3 years we have pretty much spent what we have brought in and that is not including the agents fees and signing on fees which could amount to an extra 10-15% on incoming transfers and also bizarely when selling players we sometimes have to pay the agent a fee too.
So the last two seasons we have not actually made a profit we have made a loss, the issue is that we have so four of our big signings out on loan, we need to recoup the outlay to top up the transfer kitty
I have been banging on for years about addressing major issues in the team, but as shown the club have tried to do that but wasted the money .
I said a few years ago to succeed we need to sell players at a profit and keep doing that, this is our only way forward as we don't have a fan base like Everton who will turn up in numbers whatever and thus keeping up sponsorship income due to this.
I also said that this only works if we keep repeating the process by buying well and selling well and our problems will come when we can't sell players.
I stick up for the club because it is well run, Gao has done nothing different than Liebherr in the model, it was this model he bought into.
They have changed the regime so I don't keep calling them out for poor signings etc, we have to give the new people including Gao the chance to turn thing around and get back on track | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:21 - Feb 22 with 699 views | SaintNick |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 09:56 - Feb 22 by dirk_doone |
The money wasted on all of the stooges would have been much, much more than enough to keep some of the better players we already had here.
Do you honestly think our owners don't want to sell our best players like van Dijk? Of course they do. The only reason his sale was delayed was that Gao wouldn't part with his cash to Kat if she sold any more players before he took over. And they'll be selling one or two more in the summer. [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 10:00]
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You really dont get it do you Dirk, do you honestly think that keeping Van Dijk and Fonte was as easy as just offering them more money, even if we could have offered them as much as Liverpool or West Ham
The truth is about both of those players was that in essence they are professionals, they hd no loyalty to the club.
In Van Dijk's case you could see why he wanted to go, it was a nasty situation but at least he was going to further his career with a club who could who could challenge for honours and actually win them.
Fonte really couldnt say that, he wanted to go to the highest bidder whether that was West Ham or China, he knew how much Saints could offer him and his agent touted him about till he got it
It was no surprise that he spent only a year at West Ham then was off again to last a few months in China and a few million richer.
I know you won't accept this, but his was truly a transfer that sticks in the throat, as one minute he was professing to love the club so much etc etc, but it turned out that was only because prior to the Euros we were paying him as much as he could get elsewhere, when he changed his agent the game changed and when there were clubs who would offer him more he was off like a shot.
Seriously if this is the way you feel the club is run, then your journey with it has run it's course, you want something different from a football club than it can give you in the modern age | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:34 - Feb 22 with 694 views | dirk_doone |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:21 - Feb 22 by SaintNick |
You really dont get it do you Dirk, do you honestly think that keeping Van Dijk and Fonte was as easy as just offering them more money, even if we could have offered them as much as Liverpool or West Ham
The truth is about both of those players was that in essence they are professionals, they hd no loyalty to the club.
In Van Dijk's case you could see why he wanted to go, it was a nasty situation but at least he was going to further his career with a club who could who could challenge for honours and actually win them.
Fonte really couldnt say that, he wanted to go to the highest bidder whether that was West Ham or China, he knew how much Saints could offer him and his agent touted him about till he got it
It was no surprise that he spent only a year at West Ham then was off again to last a few months in China and a few million richer.
I know you won't accept this, but his was truly a transfer that sticks in the throat, as one minute he was professing to love the club so much etc etc, but it turned out that was only because prior to the Euros we were paying him as much as he could get elsewhere, when he changed his agent the game changed and when there were clubs who would offer him more he was off like a shot.
Seriously if this is the way you feel the club is run, then your journey with it has run it's course, you want something different from a football club than it can give you in the modern age |
In truth, Nick, I'm not an idiot. Of course, van Dijk wanted to go to Liverpool but you are acting like one if you really believe our owners didn't want to sell him. As for Fonte, we could have kept him and as he has proved for both Lille and Portugal, he would have been better than the players we spent a fortune on to replace him, like Vestergaard and Hoedt. Just a fraction of that money would have been enough to offer Fonte what he wanted.
As for trying to persuade long-term Saints fans to stop supporting the club if they disagree with you and don't think Gao and Kat are good owners.....
You know what? It's not worth arguing about. Let's just hope we both enjoy our trip to St Mary's this afternoon and see Saints win. [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 11:36]
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:44 - Feb 22 with 676 views | this_charming_man |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:12 - Feb 22 by SaintNick |
Right
1. The fans are hacked off because we have bought badly, to a degree they accept that players have to be sold, the problem is who we have replaced them with
2. The sell to buy claim is utter b8llocks, the last few years we have only sold players who have not been nailed on first teamers aside from Virgil Van Dijk, him aside it was July 2016 and Sadio Mane we truly lost a player who we wanted to keep
3. The Premier league money clouds the issue, things have moved on, take out the big six and the difference between finishing 7 and 17th is £20 million, the ability to spend is not Premier League money, it is about your ability to generate income from your supporter base, that means that a club like us will struggle against clubs like West Ham, Everton, Newcastle, Villa who have a bigger supporter base, ironically all still filling their grounds when they have fought relegation for the last couple of years, no excuses from their fan bases there.
Big fan bases generate the extra money for transfers, not just through gate money but sponsorship and other things.
Our accounts are transparent, we will see the latest in the next month or so, then we can comment again, but they show what we get, agents fees and bonus's are all part of the cost's yet so are running a big stadium, a big training ground and the non playing staff, that all has to come out of the Premier League money and other income.
Given our biggest outlay is players wages, around £70 million that is a big chunk of the Premier League money
Our problems are down to the number of players we have out on loan, we paid big fees for them big wages and they havent worked out (although interestingly they all seem to be in demand at their loan clubs) If we have to sell to buy it is because we have £80 million of signings not playing for us, unlike Liverpool we cant just write that amount off and spend another £80 millon to replace them.
So the self sustainabe model is not failing as we are in mid table and still in the Premier League, but like any model it is reliant on being worked well, we have spent badly so we have to slow down readjust and adapt for a while. The spending model doesn't always work, Fulham spent millions, Villa did, Everton have spent far more since they poached Koeman, yet haven't done much better than us have they.
My criticism of Cortese was never that he was interested in profit, if you read back I was always saying that he was wasting money on car parking barriers and overspending on the training ground etc, so you need to do a bit of research there
Lets look at the last seasons expenditure roughly speaking
19/20
Ins - Ings, Adams Djenepo £52 million
Outs Austin, Targett, Gallagher & Clasie £20 million
18/19
Ins
Gunn Vestergaard, Elyounoussi Armstrong £51 million
Outs
Gabbiadini, Tadic £20 million
17/18
Ins Lemina, Hoedt, Bednarek, Carrillo £60 million
Outs Van Dijk, Rodriguez £87 million
So in the last three seasons the total transfer outlay has been £131 million and the money brought in £127 million, I might be a few million out here but even if we allow a 10% leeway thats not much
So truth is in 3 years we have pretty much spent what we have brought in and that is not including the agents fees and signing on fees which could amount to an extra 10-15% on incoming transfers and also bizarely when selling players we sometimes have to pay the agent a fee too.
So the last two seasons we have not actually made a profit we have made a loss, the issue is that we have so four of our big signings out on loan, we need to recoup the outlay to top up the transfer kitty
I have been banging on for years about addressing major issues in the team, but as shown the club have tried to do that but wasted the money .
I said a few years ago to succeed we need to sell players at a profit and keep doing that, this is our only way forward as we don't have a fan base like Everton who will turn up in numbers whatever and thus keeping up sponsorship income due to this.
I also said that this only works if we keep repeating the process by buying well and selling well and our problems will come when we can't sell players.
I stick up for the club because it is well run, Gao has done nothing different than Liebherr in the model, it was this model he bought into.
They have changed the regime so I don't keep calling them out for poor signings etc, we have to give the new people including Gao the chance to turn thing around and get back on track |
So How do you explain the fact that Bournemouth with crowds lower then half ours and palace, burnley, Watford and Brighton;all with crowds smaller than ours are able to spend more than they receive? Not just a few quid either, all of the, have spent over £50m, some more than £100m more than they’ve brought in in the same period we’ve made a profit. They have to pay those pesky agents fees and bonuses too You know!
I know you righty criticized cortese for wasting money.the training ground etc and the endless posts about Forren and Mayuka, we’ve seen no such posts about Camillo and Elaynaoussi! but I also remember you posting about fans didn’t want to see open top bus parades with the cheque for how much profit we made being waved, just because you can’t remember it doesn’t mean you didn’t say it.
The sell to buy isn’t bollox, in fact you contradict yourself by saying it is then later say our model depends on doing just that. Fact is we sold Matt target to fund Che Adams and we couldn’t sell anyone else in the summer so we didn’t buy anyone else. You’ve also, perhaps unsurprisingly, understated our income from transfers, this summer you say £20m, well TArgett and Gallagher were more than that between them, add Austin in and you’re nearer £30m than £20. So the correct figures put us In profit (again) your other figures are there or there about I give you.
So as per Watford, palace etc the claims we can’t compete with clubs due to the size of our crowds is incorrect.
Like you say our model only works if we buy well and sell well, we’ve done neither the last three years so how can we be a well run club when the very base our model is built on has been a abject failure? [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 11:01]
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:47 - Feb 22 with 670 views | this_charming_man |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:34 - Feb 22 by dirk_doone |
In truth, Nick, I'm not an idiot. Of course, van Dijk wanted to go to Liverpool but you are acting like one if you really believe our owners didn't want to sell him. As for Fonte, we could have kept him and as he has proved for both Lille and Portugal, he would have been better than the players we spent a fortune on to replace him, like Vestergaard and Hoedt. Just a fraction of that money would have been enough to offer Fonte what he wanted.
As for trying to persuade long-term Saints fans to stop supporting the club if they disagree with you and don't think Gao and Kat are good owners.....
You know what? It's not worth arguing about. Let's just hope we both enjoy our trip to St Mary's this afternoon and see Saints win. [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 11:36]
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The truth is the club tried to sell van dijk the summer before we did, but it was blocked due to the goa takeover, we managed to sell before before the window even open the next chance we got though.
Fonte was different and Nick is right here, it’s a shame as we missed him as a defender and leader but he was being difficult behind the scenes, also radic and Cedric have both said for a long time they wanted to leave so don’t really have any issue with the, going either. | |
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| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 12:36 - Feb 22 with 619 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Good example of Chinese Ownership on 10:21 - Feb 22 by SaintNick |
You really dont get it do you Dirk, do you honestly think that keeping Van Dijk and Fonte was as easy as just offering them more money, even if we could have offered them as much as Liverpool or West Ham
The truth is about both of those players was that in essence they are professionals, they hd no loyalty to the club.
In Van Dijk's case you could see why he wanted to go, it was a nasty situation but at least he was going to further his career with a club who could who could challenge for honours and actually win them.
Fonte really couldnt say that, he wanted to go to the highest bidder whether that was West Ham or China, he knew how much Saints could offer him and his agent touted him about till he got it
It was no surprise that he spent only a year at West Ham then was off again to last a few months in China and a few million richer.
I know you won't accept this, but his was truly a transfer that sticks in the throat, as one minute he was professing to love the club so much etc etc, but it turned out that was only because prior to the Euros we were paying him as much as he could get elsewhere, when he changed his agent the game changed and when there were clubs who would offer him more he was off like a shot.
Seriously if this is the way you feel the club is run, then your journey with it has run it's course, you want something different from a football club than it can give you in the modern age |
The biggest problem and frustration Nick is not because we don't spend hundreds of millions. It's more that we run on the bare minimum year after year. We have to play midfielders at right back, centre backs at left back and so on. It's arguable we would have won the league Cup if it wasn't for our defense. I think you will find that if Saints just bought a 30 million pound top defender, it would do a lot to get fans onside. Or even just a good defender even if free like Cahill. It's money we have, as others have stated, Watford, Bournemouth spent those amounts. Instead like you say, sometimes we get away with it, sometimes we don't. The result is never getting anywhere ever. And that's frustrating, when we are only a few signings away from being a good side.
The club under Gao are just being so incredibly tight with player signings, away allocations, bar memberships whatever and it's not going down well. Can you at least see that fans are frustrated that we haven't addressed the defence for 4 years when they can clearly afford to do so? [Post edited 22 Feb 2020 12:42]
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