| Pandemic rules in Wales 08:36 - May 29 with 10360 views | legoman |
After folks views. Mrs L and I live in Bromley. Her parents who are both in their 80s live in Killay. My mum, also mid 80s, is resident in a care home in Sketty.
We note Wales' rules differ from England and we realise we can't travel to Swansea at the moment.
Assuming Welsh rules relax soon along the same lines as England, we will soon be allowed to travel and visit our parents by going into gardens and social distancing.
Now, my sister-in-law has a flat in the marina but lives in Chester with her husband. They are Jacks and visit every weekend there is a home game. They stay in the flat.
My question is, would Mrs L and I be allowed to travel to Swansea for a few days and stay in the flat (not when it's occupied)? I guess it's a situation akin to hiring an Airbnb and I believe they are not renting at the moment.
Views?
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 15:14 - May 29 with 1559 views | Scotia |
I'd say under the rules it is a strict no. You couldn't travel to your sisters flat, and even if you could I would have thought that Sketty is further than 5 miles from the marina, although I'm not 100% sure? And we can't travel more than 5 miles to visit anyone, even in a garden. Anyway, I hope you get to see them soon.
My take on the Wales v rest of UK handling of this crisis is that we are by far the worst performer. We can't move out of lock down because we don't have access to the testing system and subsequently the tracing system the rest of the UK has. Our R number is still one of the highest in the UK and our covid hospital bed use is stagnating.
We have allowed pockets of virus to develop, because of the lack of testing, and Drakeford is applying blanket rules across the rest of Wales needlessly. Personally I would be livid if I lived in Ceredigion and I couldn't visit my parents if they lived 6 miles away despite there being less than 50 cases in total. Whereas if I lived in Birmingham, where there has been hundreds of cases, I could have my mates around for a barbecue.
I want lockdown eased to the degree of the rest of the country now, the 5 mile travel rule should apply in hot spots, such as RCT but nowhere else. |  | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 15:57 - May 29 with 1520 views | exhmrc1 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 15:10 - May 29 by Catullus |
Out of interest, how many tests were done in England as against Wales? Then how many of those new cases were discovered because of the tests?
If new English cases are being discovered because of testing, it doesn't mean Wales is doing better it just means we have no actual idea how many new cases we have. Which, to me anyway, is a more dangerous position.
When, on lowering our lockdown restrictions, we don't know how many new cases we've been having we could be walking into a minefield.
England on the other hand are walking into a minefield for different reasons, as ECB points out.
So in my book, while the resons are different the outcomes are going to be similar because Westminster and the WG are both rubbish.
Hindsight might prove me wrong, we'll see. |
The Daily Mail is carrying a report that 18 councils have not yet reached their peak yet Boris says they can travel anywhere whereas Drakeford is far more cautious. I believe he is right looking for the whole of Wales whilst Boris is largely acting on what happens around London. 17 of the 18 local authorities are in England. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 16:11 - May 29 with 1509 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 15:57 - May 29 by exhmrc1 |
The Daily Mail is carrying a report that 18 councils have not yet reached their peak yet Boris says they can travel anywhere whereas Drakeford is far more cautious. I believe he is right looking for the whole of Wales whilst Boris is largely acting on what happens around London. 17 of the 18 local authorities are in England. |
With respect, the Daily Mail report is based on ONS data from 2 weeks ago, comparing it to ONS data from 3 weeks ago, and ignoring the statement from the ONS that in some areas the data is skewed by the presence of the VE Day bank holiday the week before which caused data collection issues.
It’s really important to check the sources on this stuff, particularly given the nature of the publication.
If you list what is currently allowed in England and Wales the only real difference (outside slogans) is the distance you can travel inside your car to get somewhere. And the reality is that is safety related. We are safer in London getting in a car and traveling an hour to Sussex, Kent, Herts etc than we are all bunched up together in a crowded city. Same with Birmingham. Manchester. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 16:57 - May 29 with 1472 views | Phil_S |
For all his failings at times I think Drakeford has done a decent job in his last two reviews. HE is easing us out there gently, reasonably clear in his message (even on the 5 miles he is effectively saying common sense) and reiterating that people just need to stick within some clear rules and the rest is guidance.
Like others I would gradually come out of this gently then in one giant leap of hope which is what others seem to be saying. It's frustrating but easy enough to follow and cope with.
And the part about businesses spending 3 weeks now preparing to open safely and be ready when he says it is much better than "open tomorrow and cross your fingers" |  | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:12 - May 29 with 1452 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 16:57 - May 29 by Phil_S |
For all his failings at times I think Drakeford has done a decent job in his last two reviews. HE is easing us out there gently, reasonably clear in his message (even on the 5 miles he is effectively saying common sense) and reiterating that people just need to stick within some clear rules and the rest is guidance.
Like others I would gradually come out of this gently then in one giant leap of hope which is what others seem to be saying. It's frustrating but easy enough to follow and cope with.
And the part about businesses spending 3 weeks now preparing to open safely and be ready when he says it is much better than "open tomorrow and cross your fingers" |
The shops here aren’t opening until June 15th either.
The biggest difference that I can see is the comms rather than what’s actually allowed. From Monday, Wales joins England in the ‘sunbathing’ bit and it’s the same on meeting people.
People think the lockdown rules are less in England because that arse Johnson spends his time trumpeting about how great it all is. And pictures are published of beaches being full (which I’m sure they are but equally they’ll all be 6 feet apart - no one sits on top of each other in any normal year ). It’s the household mingling that’s more worrying and that’s not allowed anywhere until Monday when it’s allowed everywhere in the UK (I think). | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:27 - May 29 with 1448 views | Scotia |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:12 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
The shops here aren’t opening until June 15th either.
The biggest difference that I can see is the comms rather than what’s actually allowed. From Monday, Wales joins England in the ‘sunbathing’ bit and it’s the same on meeting people.
People think the lockdown rules are less in England because that arse Johnson spends his time trumpeting about how great it all is. And pictures are published of beaches being full (which I’m sure they are but equally they’ll all be 6 feet apart - no one sits on top of each other in any normal year ). It’s the household mingling that’s more worrying and that’s not allowed anywhere until Monday when it’s allowed everywhere in the UK (I think). |
That is my take on it too, especially with the pictures of beaches being crowded. I'm willing to bet most people are about 2 - 3 metres away from each other and in the open air. A Mail photographer is probably camped out on Brighton beach to get the perfect angle as we speak.
There isn't a great deal of difference between current easing except for the timing and the distance allowed to travel, and I see no reason why we can't match England on that if we are a bit tighter on more heavily affected areas. Especially when we eventually get up to speed with testing and tracing. Why can't our shops open, safely, until a week after those just over the border? | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:55 - May 29 with 1432 views | LeonWasGod |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:12 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
The shops here aren’t opening until June 15th either.
The biggest difference that I can see is the comms rather than what’s actually allowed. From Monday, Wales joins England in the ‘sunbathing’ bit and it’s the same on meeting people.
People think the lockdown rules are less in England because that arse Johnson spends his time trumpeting about how great it all is. And pictures are published of beaches being full (which I’m sure they are but equally they’ll all be 6 feet apart - no one sits on top of each other in any normal year ). It’s the household mingling that’s more worrying and that’s not allowed anywhere until Monday when it’s allowed everywhere in the UK (I think). |
Local travel's the big one, with car parks and laybys cordoned off. That's a massive difference. It wouldn't be possible to pack the beaches here - nobody can get to them. They're busier, but only slightly. Caswell had nobody (literally a few dog walkers) on it a lunchtime on Saturday, and only maybe 30 or so on Sunday which was a scorcher here. That's hundreds less than you'd normally expect on one beach, times all the beaches across Gower. |  | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:00 - May 29 with 1425 views | airedale |
Pandemic rules most places. |  | | |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:01 - May 29 with 1425 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 17:55 - May 29 by LeonWasGod |
Local travel's the big one, with car parks and laybys cordoned off. That's a massive difference. It wouldn't be possible to pack the beaches here - nobody can get to them. They're busier, but only slightly. Caswell had nobody (literally a few dog walkers) on it a lunchtime on Saturday, and only maybe 30 or so on Sunday which was a scorcher here. That's hundreds less than you'd normally expect on one beach, times all the beaches across Gower. |
Yes, I understand that. Although there are loads of car parks closed here as well to be honest.
But I’m not certain the ‘beach’ thing is really an issue (the shops, queues, toilets bit may be, that’s different and they’re all shut here as well).
But sitting on a beach 10 ft away from the next family strikes me as far safer than people being in work, which is the same across the UK. And safer than going to B&Q. Also safer, actually, than going to a library, which I wouldn’t do at the moment (it’s designed for picking stuff up, having a look, then putting it back). Our libraries aren’t open until July. It just all seems weird. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:29 - May 29 with 1410 views | Catullus |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:01 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, I understand that. Although there are loads of car parks closed here as well to be honest.
But I’m not certain the ‘beach’ thing is really an issue (the shops, queues, toilets bit may be, that’s different and they’re all shut here as well).
But sitting on a beach 10 ft away from the next family strikes me as far safer than people being in work, which is the same across the UK. And safer than going to B&Q. Also safer, actually, than going to a library, which I wouldn’t do at the moment (it’s designed for picking stuff up, having a look, then putting it back). Our libraries aren’t open until July. It just all seems weird. |
Yes but just wait til the ice cream van pulls up!
Being outside (and 2 metres away) is safer than being inside and 2 metres away, didn't the government say that? Maybe the answer isn't to close the beaches but to mark out pathways and mark out zones, stay inside your chosen zone and no problem. Of course that needs organisation and manpower, it'll cost money and would result in a queue building up just to get on the beach so they'd need a time limit...it's turning into a nightmare, just close them  | |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:10 - May 29 with 1377 views | exhmrc1 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 14:23 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, and as I said there was 1 in Hammersmith & Fulham. 1 in Lambeth. 0 in Ealing. 0 in Croydon. 0 in Brent. 3 in Southwark. 1 in Bromley.
The population of that lot is about 2.2m. You said there were 37 cases in South Wales? Population about 2.2m.
I don’t assume the cases are far lower in London than in Wales because of the decisions of the Westminster government. They are because that’s where we are in the virus timetable. Same in Wales. It goes down because of where we are. |
These are the figures up to yesterday showing 3 London Boroughs in the top 10 and the highest Welsh authority in 38th position
Where is the Welsh hot spot?
Early on in the pandemic, the hot spot was in the Aneurin Bevan health board area.
But this has now shifted to the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board area - the highest death rate is now in Rhondda Cynon Taff with 98.69 deaths per 100,000 people, the 38th worst in England and Wales.
Merthyr Tydfil (98.03 deaths per 100,000 - 40th worst) is now worse than Newport (97.19 and 42nd).
Cardiff has suffered 90.32 deaths per 100,000 people - 65th - and Blaenau Gwent 86.07.
The London area has half of the worst 10 local authority areas in England and Wales and Hertsmere is still worst with 161.2 deaths per 100,000, followed by Harrow and Brent.
South Lakeland in Cumbria (132), Scarborough (131) and Middlesbrough (126.6) are also notable, as well as places Stratford-upon-Avon and Walsall in the Midlands. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:38 - May 29 with 1362 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:10 - May 29 by exhmrc1 |
These are the figures up to yesterday showing 3 London Boroughs in the top 10 and the highest Welsh authority in 38th position
Where is the Welsh hot spot?
Early on in the pandemic, the hot spot was in the Aneurin Bevan health board area.
But this has now shifted to the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board area - the highest death rate is now in Rhondda Cynon Taff with 98.69 deaths per 100,000 people, the 38th worst in England and Wales.
Merthyr Tydfil (98.03 deaths per 100,000 - 40th worst) is now worse than Newport (97.19 and 42nd).
Cardiff has suffered 90.32 deaths per 100,000 people - 65th - and Blaenau Gwent 86.07.
The London area has half of the worst 10 local authority areas in England and Wales and Hertsmere is still worst with 161.2 deaths per 100,000, followed by Harrow and Brent.
South Lakeland in Cumbria (132), Scarborough (131) and Middlesbrough (126.6) are also notable, as well as places Stratford-upon-Avon and Walsall in the Midlands. |
You’re completely missing my point.
You started by saying that cases are getting lower in Wales because of the actions of the WG, compared to the easing of lockdown in England.
I pointed out that cases are getting very low everywhere as it’s a function of time passing rather than specific measures (cases in London, which as you point out, has been extremely hard hit are far lower than they are in Wales now).
I also said that the whole thing seems not to be as simple as is made out, as Hammersmith & Fulham has had far lower infection rates than Swansea, despite every single factor suggesting it should be reversed (and we’ve had far more testing btw, so that in itself should be a factor suggesting the reverse).
You’re now arguing something else entirely. although some of your examples, Stratford-upon-Avon, the Lakes etc rather bear out what I’ve said.
Hertsmere by the way isn’t in London. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:41 - May 29 with 1360 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:29 - May 29 by Catullus |
Yes but just wait til the ice cream van pulls up!
Being outside (and 2 metres away) is safer than being inside and 2 metres away, didn't the government say that? Maybe the answer isn't to close the beaches but to mark out pathways and mark out zones, stay inside your chosen zone and no problem. Of course that needs organisation and manpower, it'll cost money and would result in a queue building up just to get on the beach so they'd need a time limit...it's turning into a nightmare, just close them |
I suspect you’d think differently if you lived in a flat with no outside space and two young kids.
Lockdown itself is killing people and will continue to kill people and is also causing great harm. This isn’t a case of lockdown is safe and no lockdown is not. It’s a very fine balance. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:46 - May 29 with 1359 views | exiledclaseboy |
We’ll probably end up with a series of regional or local lockdowns to contain localised outbreaks as this goes on. It seems the R rate is different all over the place. |  |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 20:28 - May 29 with 1340 views | exhmrc1 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:46 - May 29 by exiledclaseboy |
We’ll probably end up with a series of regional or local lockdowns to contain localised outbreaks as this goes on. It seems the R rate is different all over the place. |
I think that will be the case in England but the delay might prevent that in Wales. It very much seems like the WAG is delaying making changes to things like Education so the whole of Wales can go forward together when all the areas are very low ie when North Wales is at the level most of South Wales is now. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 21:49 - May 29 with 1324 views | Catullus |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 19:41 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
I suspect you’d think differently if you lived in a flat with no outside space and two young kids.
Lockdown itself is killing people and will continue to kill people and is also causing great harm. This isn’t a case of lockdown is safe and no lockdown is not. It’s a very fine balance. |
Maybe read it agin with a less serious eye? | |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:25 - May 29 with 1312 views | BillyChong |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 11:20 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
“thankfully the WAG are much more sensible on this than the idiots in Westminster. The result of the WAG's policy is that the numbers in our area are extremely low “
And yet Swansea has had 1262 confirmed cases, from a population of 246,993 ( so 1 per 196) and a population density of 649 people per sq km.
And Hammersmith & Fulham (where I live) has had 663 cases, from a population of 185,143 (so 1 per 297) with a population density of 11,000 people per sq km.
And Hammersmith & Fulham has a far larger BAME population as well and the virus was widespread sooner, before lockdown kicked in.
So who knows what’s affecting what. It’s not as simple as you suggest. And certainly the facts don’t support you on the Welsh Government’s handling of this, which from the outside, appears even more inept in many areas than Westminster. |
I thought I heard that almost 6,000 had died from COVID in London? Surely a higher ratio than in Swansea? | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:33 - May 29 with 1303 views | Dr_Winston |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:25 - May 29 by BillyChong |
I thought I heard that almost 6,000 had died from COVID in London? Surely a higher ratio than in Swansea? |
According to the BBC as of today...
There are approximately 390,000 people in the Swansea Health Board area with 1,317 deaths at a rate of roughly 0.03%.
There are approximately 9 million people in London with 5,932 deaths at a rate of 0.06%. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:47 - May 29 with 1292 views | LeonWasGod |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 18:01 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, I understand that. Although there are loads of car parks closed here as well to be honest.
But I’m not certain the ‘beach’ thing is really an issue (the shops, queues, toilets bit may be, that’s different and they’re all shut here as well).
But sitting on a beach 10 ft away from the next family strikes me as far safer than people being in work, which is the same across the UK. And safer than going to B&Q. Also safer, actually, than going to a library, which I wouldn’t do at the moment (it’s designed for picking stuff up, having a look, then putting it back). Our libraries aren’t open until July. It just all seems weird. |
Fair point. And those Southend pictures from last weekend look very different when you see the drone footage, so although there are hundreds of people on a beach they are socially distancing (ish).
It goes against the spirit of limiting contact and avoiding crowds for me, but it may be that those busy beaches aren't a problem. But they may well be too of course. We'd need to see some evidence one way or the other before drawing a conclusion (not that social media would wait for that!). | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:55 - May 29 with 1285 views | exhmrc1 |
1317 deaths is the amount of deaths in wales. Around 200 in Swansea. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:59 - May 29 with 1281 views | Dr_Winston |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:55 - May 29 by exhmrc1 |
1317 deaths is the amount of deaths in wales. Around 200 in Swansea. |
Good spot. Worked it out on cases rather than deaths.
Ratio is basically the same though. 200 deaths in a 390,000 population works out at 0.05%. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 23:32 - May 29 with 1257 views | jack_lord |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 22:55 - May 29 by exhmrc1 |
1317 deaths is the amount of deaths in wales. Around 200 in Swansea. |
Sometimes the figures are broken down to local health boards and sometimes the city. I;m not sure whether Lisa's previous figure was based on the city or the health board. There are skews in a city the size of London. I would have originally thought that the wealthier areas of Fulham etc; would have had lower mortality rate than some of the poorer boroughs. Swansea, itself, has a population density that will vary greatly from the Gower to Morriston.
The Government have been pretty awful throughout in my opinion and I can't say that the Welsh assembly has been particularly professional.
I think Lisa is probably right that the beach may be safer than a shop but it all depends on who is on the beach. |  |
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| Pandemic rules in Wales on 01:01 - May 30 with 1242 views | airedale |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 23:32 - May 29 by jack_lord |
Sometimes the figures are broken down to local health boards and sometimes the city. I;m not sure whether Lisa's previous figure was based on the city or the health board. There are skews in a city the size of London. I would have originally thought that the wealthier areas of Fulham etc; would have had lower mortality rate than some of the poorer boroughs. Swansea, itself, has a population density that will vary greatly from the Gower to Morriston.
The Government have been pretty awful throughout in my opinion and I can't say that the Welsh assembly has been particularly professional.
I think Lisa is probably right that the beach may be safer than a shop but it all depends on who is on the beach. |
Life’s a beach. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 11:59 - May 30 with 1170 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 23:32 - May 29 by jack_lord |
Sometimes the figures are broken down to local health boards and sometimes the city. I;m not sure whether Lisa's previous figure was based on the city or the health board. There are skews in a city the size of London. I would have originally thought that the wealthier areas of Fulham etc; would have had lower mortality rate than some of the poorer boroughs. Swansea, itself, has a population density that will vary greatly from the Gower to Morriston.
The Government have been pretty awful throughout in my opinion and I can't say that the Welsh assembly has been particularly professional.
I think Lisa is probably right that the beach may be safer than a shop but it all depends on who is on the beach. |
My figures were by Local authority.
Hammersmith & Fulham may have leafy parts, but overall as I said the population density is 11,000 per square km rather than a few hundred (in Swansea).
I was surprised by the figures. Even the worst parts of Swansea are no where near as built up and grimy as some of the big estates in Fulham or around White City and Shepherds Bush.
You last point is bang on. The distancing, safety etc is completely determined by people’s individual behaviour rather than by what restrictions are or are not in place. We’re all at the mercy of the most stupid, selfish people around us. And that doesn’t change according to whether they’re allowed in one place or another place. | | | |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 12:34 - May 30 with 1159 views | exhmrc1 |
| Pandemic rules in Wales on 23:32 - May 29 by jack_lord |
Sometimes the figures are broken down to local health boards and sometimes the city. I;m not sure whether Lisa's previous figure was based on the city or the health board. There are skews in a city the size of London. I would have originally thought that the wealthier areas of Fulham etc; would have had lower mortality rate than some of the poorer boroughs. Swansea, itself, has a population density that will vary greatly from the Gower to Morriston.
The Government have been pretty awful throughout in my opinion and I can't say that the Welsh assembly has been particularly professional.
I think Lisa is probably right that the beach may be safer than a shop but it all depends on who is on the beach. |
I think there are far too many who are only too unhappy to slag off the Wag whatever it does but in this case the evidence is supporting that their actions have been correct unlike other issues. The fact that there were no new cases yesterday in Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, Bridgend, Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent or Torfaen, 1 in Monmouthshire and there were only 2 cases each in Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Powys. There were 3 in Merthyr Tydfil and 4 each in Newport and Vale of Glamorgan and 8 in Cardiff. The vast majority of South Wales is coming under control but North Wales and RCT has someway to go. | | | |
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