| Share sale 11:34 - Jun 3 with 57624 views | fitzochris |
I understand the shares owned by Chris Dunphy, Bill Goodwin and Paul Hazelhurst have been sold to a US-based concern.
Keep an eye on Companies House over the coming weeks. |  |
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| Share sale on 15:59 - Jun 5 with 2395 views | SuddenLad |
Surely, the point is that the club will benefit massively from the proposals being made. Improved facilities, financial injection, new pitch etc., etc.
That all costs money and currently the club can't afford any of it. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Share sale on 16:01 - Jun 5 with 2379 views | James1980 |
Not saying they should do. Can you see those who transferred their shares making any statements? |  |
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| Share sale on 16:02 - Jun 5 with 2373 views | judd |
| Share sale on 15:59 - Jun 5 by SuddenLad |
Surely, the point is that the club will benefit massively from the proposals being made. Improved facilities, financial injection, new pitch etc., etc.
That all costs money and currently the club can't afford any of it. |
But can the new "investors"?
Perhaps their admirable and entirely sensible plans were not backed up by an acceptable source of funding? |  |
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| Share sale on 16:04 - Jun 5 with 2350 views | TalkingSutty |
| Share sale on 15:59 - Jun 5 by SuddenLad |
Surely, the point is that the club will benefit massively from the proposals being made. Improved facilities, financial injection, new pitch etc., etc.
That all costs money and currently the club can't afford any of it. |
...so the Club issue a shitty statement, basically putting two fingers up to the fans. Let’s hear it from the Chairman why we are in a position to turn this proposal down! |  | | |
| Share sale on 16:17 - Jun 5 with 2284 views | SuddenLad |
| Share sale on 16:02 - Jun 5 by judd |
But can the new "investors"?
Perhaps their admirable and entirely sensible plans were not backed up by an acceptable source of funding? |
Good point Judd.
I suspect they can from what has been reported thus far, but let's hear the objections and reasons as to WHY the current CEO and Board thinks this is a bad idea. Have they done the relevant homework in all the months they have known? Let's be hearing it.
I'm sure there are people using/reading this MB who can find out whether the Altman ideas are feasible and whether sufficient $$$ are available to bring things to fruition.
It might be a pipe dream, but we need to know that we aren't kissing goodbye to a wonderful opportunity to enhance and secure the position of the club.
If there is good reason to be suspicious or worried, what are those reasons? If they are valid reasons, equally, we need to be satisfied.
I would hate to see a scenario develop where our club kicked the deal into touch and the potential investors pitched up elsewhere at a rival club and brought success. That would be a bitter pill to swallow and people would never be forgiven for standing in the way. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Share sale on 16:30 - Jun 5 with 2233 views | electricblue |
yes.... |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Share sale on 16:37 - Jun 5 with 2196 views | judd |
| Share sale on 16:17 - Jun 5 by SuddenLad |
Good point Judd.
I suspect they can from what has been reported thus far, but let's hear the objections and reasons as to WHY the current CEO and Board thinks this is a bad idea. Have they done the relevant homework in all the months they have known? Let's be hearing it.
I'm sure there are people using/reading this MB who can find out whether the Altman ideas are feasible and whether sufficient $$$ are available to bring things to fruition.
It might be a pipe dream, but we need to know that we aren't kissing goodbye to a wonderful opportunity to enhance and secure the position of the club.
If there is good reason to be suspicious or worried, what are those reasons? If they are valid reasons, equally, we need to be satisfied.
I would hate to see a scenario develop where our club kicked the deal into touch and the potential investors pitched up elsewhere at a rival club and brought success. That would be a bitter pill to swallow and people would never be forgiven for standing in the way. |
Well they have bought the shares now and I expect they will want an active role in the club.
It's clear that there has been a difference of opinion in their ability to operate as they proposed, assuming what was released yesterday is what was discussed when Chris was still on board, sufficient for him to still have belief in them to sell his shares when he did.
Was this issue the one that caused the resignation? | |
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| Share sale on 16:42 - Jun 5 with 2173 views | tony_roch975 |
| Share sale on 16:17 - Jun 5 by SuddenLad |
Good point Judd.
I suspect they can from what has been reported thus far, but let's hear the objections and reasons as to WHY the current CEO and Board thinks this is a bad idea. Have they done the relevant homework in all the months they have known? Let's be hearing it.
I'm sure there are people using/reading this MB who can find out whether the Altman ideas are feasible and whether sufficient $$$ are available to bring things to fruition.
It might be a pipe dream, but we need to know that we aren't kissing goodbye to a wonderful opportunity to enhance and secure the position of the club.
If there is good reason to be suspicious or worried, what are those reasons? If they are valid reasons, equally, we need to be satisfied.
I would hate to see a scenario develop where our club kicked the deal into touch and the potential investors pitched up elsewhere at a rival club and brought success. That would be a bitter pill to swallow and people would never be forgiven for standing in the way. |
Altman's statement says they were looking to purchase the un-issued shares which at that point stood at circa 400,000 - so depends what the Board wanted for them but clearly the Board's EGM proposal to issue a further 700,000 shares @£6 would have meant a much larger investment into the Club - as fitzochris says, it's a difference of opinion on the value of shares versus the investment offered. | |
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| Share sale on 16:44 - Jun 5 with 2157 views | James1980 |
Are the discussions Dunphy had with these folk when he was Chairman anything to do with his departure/ousting from the board? | |
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| Share sale on 16:50 - Jun 5 with 2128 views | 1907 |
| Share sale on 16:04 - Jun 5 by TalkingSutty |
...so the Club issue a shitty statement, basically putting two fingers up to the fans. Let’s hear it from the Chairman why we are in a position to turn this proposal down! |
I think the club statement is more of a two finger salute to the two new investors more than the fans. | | | |
| Share sale on 16:50 - Jun 5 with 2127 views | judd |
| Share sale on 16:42 - Jun 5 by tony_roch975 |
Altman's statement says they were looking to purchase the un-issued shares which at that point stood at circa 400,000 - so depends what the Board wanted for them but clearly the Board's EGM proposal to issue a further 700,000 shares @£6 would have meant a much larger investment into the Club - as fitzochris says, it's a difference of opinion on the value of shares versus the investment offered. |
The last share offer was at £2 each.
Perhaps that is how Altman valued his offer and the club deemed it unacceptable.
There is then the funding of the plans - what is the source of that funding? Is it serviceable?
Is it survivable? | |
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| Share sale on 16:50 - Jun 5 with 2126 views | SuddenLad |
| Share sale on 16:37 - Jun 5 by judd |
Well they have bought the shares now and I expect they will want an active role in the club.
It's clear that there has been a difference of opinion in their ability to operate as they proposed, assuming what was released yesterday is what was discussed when Chris was still on board, sufficient for him to still have belief in them to sell his shares when he did.
Was this issue the one that caused the resignation? |
The key to the whole thing for me is that CD was sufficiently satisfied in the credibility of Altman and his proposals, to sell his shares.
There is no way I can see that Chris Dunphy, a devoted and long-standing fan of this club, would do anything that would be to the detriment of Rochdale AFC. On the contrary, I assume he knew sufficient about the people, the proposals and the credibility, to help the situation evolve. Bill Goodwin must have thought likewise.
In Dunphy I trust. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Share sale on 16:53 - Jun 5 with 2118 views | funkkk |
Could it be the case that the board got greedy and upped the price? Altman and co were willing to spend $$ but wanted this money to be invested in the training ground etc. rather than lining their pockets...? |  | | |
| Share sale on 16:53 - Jun 5 with 2118 views | boromat |
For me I'm glad that the club seem to be cautious of new investors and seem to be doing their due diligence, they must have for the talks to have fallen through on the investment topic.
What's worrying about the sale of shares then to this new party is that it seems like a bit of a power move and hints of a potential hostile takeover rather than an agreed investment into the club.
Hopefully it's all just a bit of politics and the end result is whatever is best for the club. | |
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| Share sale on 17:01 - Jun 5 with 2068 views | tony_roch975 |
| Share sale on 16:50 - Jun 5 by judd |
The last share offer was at £2 each.
Perhaps that is how Altman valued his offer and the club deemed it unacceptable.
There is then the funding of the plans - what is the source of that funding? Is it serviceable?
Is it survivable? |
Yes, that's what I paid 11 years ago & whatever he offered the Board clearly deemed it unacceptable. Looks to me like most of the funding of the plans was intended to come from attracting further investments (that's Marcelli's expertise) | |
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| Share sale on 17:09 - Jun 5 with 2037 views | tony_roch975 |
| Share sale on 16:53 - Jun 5 by boromat |
For me I'm glad that the club seem to be cautious of new investors and seem to be doing their due diligence, they must have for the talks to have fallen through on the investment topic.
What's worrying about the sale of shares then to this new party is that it seems like a bit of a power move and hints of a potential hostile takeover rather than an agreed investment into the club.
Hopefully it's all just a bit of politics and the end result is whatever is best for the club. |
do we know if the talks that stalled were with Altman or some other investor/s - fitzochris? | |
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| Share sale on 17:53 - Jun 5 with 1900 views | blackdogblue |
Just scanned the posts since the announcement & apologies if this was mentioned but I didn’t see it anywhere?
So CD & co have sold their shares in the club to the new mob.
The way I understand shares (& I have a couple of thousand Bradford & Bingley Building Society ones I got free because I had a mortgage with them once if anyone wants to make me an offer?)
Using CD, they are his personal shares, he owns them, if he sold them to me it’s a private transaction, I would pay him & the share certificates are then printed in my name
Unless I am way wide of the mark here, this is how shares work if I wanted some from the stock exchange.
So if people sell their personal shares they own (bought them or got them as a bonus) this is outside of the club & the club gets nothing for the transactions). The club board of directors can have a say in the sale of shares because if I did it with a lot of people & got 51% of shares available I would become the majority shareholder & then I would have a say in how the club was run. If I only had 10% my say would not matter.. |  |
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| Share sale on 18:00 - Jun 5 with 1873 views | Reedy |
| Share sale on 17:53 - Jun 5 by blackdogblue |
Just scanned the posts since the announcement & apologies if this was mentioned but I didn’t see it anywhere?
So CD & co have sold their shares in the club to the new mob.
The way I understand shares (& I have a couple of thousand Bradford & Bingley Building Society ones I got free because I had a mortgage with them once if anyone wants to make me an offer?)
Using CD, they are his personal shares, he owns them, if he sold them to me it’s a private transaction, I would pay him & the share certificates are then printed in my name
Unless I am way wide of the mark here, this is how shares work if I wanted some from the stock exchange.
So if people sell their personal shares they own (bought them or got them as a bonus) this is outside of the club & the club gets nothing for the transactions). The club board of directors can have a say in the sale of shares because if I did it with a lot of people & got 51% of shares available I would become the majority shareholder & then I would have a say in how the club was run. If I only had 10% my say would not matter.. |
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your Bradford and Bingley shares are worthless and have been since the financial crash of 2008.
The shares Dunphy owned were his to do what he wanted with, he could sell them to me, you or Tom down the pub for 1p each or £30,000 each. It’s a private transaction as the club isn’t listed on any stock exchange, and is a private company.
I own shares in various companies, and have the share certificates, but these are listed companies, so I’m governed by the stock market as to what price I sell at. With a private transaction, it can take place at whatever price is agreed and the company gets none of the money that changes hands. | |
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| Share sale on 18:13 - Jun 5 with 1822 views | blackdogblue |
| Share sale on 18:00 - Jun 5 by Reedy |
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your Bradford and Bingley shares are worthless and have been since the financial crash of 2008.
The shares Dunphy owned were his to do what he wanted with, he could sell them to me, you or Tom down the pub for 1p each or £30,000 each. It’s a private transaction as the club isn’t listed on any stock exchange, and is a private company.
I own shares in various companies, and have the share certificates, but these are listed companies, so I’m governed by the stock market as to what price I sell at. With a private transaction, it can take place at whatever price is agreed and the company gets none of the money that changes hands. |
I know about B&B 😀, sods luck
But agree that’s my point here, the club will not see a penny of any of it so why are there pages of “we’re getting a new training ground” etc....
Again, am I missing something? | |
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| Share sale on 18:17 - Jun 5 with 1800 views | Reedy |
| Share sale on 18:13 - Jun 5 by blackdogblue |
I know about B&B 😀, sods luck
But agree that’s my point here, the club will not see a penny of any of it so why are there pages of “we’re getting a new training ground” etc....
Again, am I missing something? |
Your not missing something, but investors are entitled to spend their money how they see fit, so they’ve now got a shareholding of roughly 15-17% of the company. So they’re well within their rights to say they want to do this and that.
However with only a minor stake (at the moment) it would have to pass board approval.
I’m also pretty sure they want be content with just having a minor stake and will be aiming for 51% to have a controlling stake in the club. | |
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| Share sale on 18:31 - Jun 5 with 1760 views | Sandyman |
The tone of the clubs' statement today is unusual. It fails to welcome these new major shareholders to the club as one would expect, and is customary. Why? . If they aren't welcome, or board members are unhappy with this event, do tell us why please. Otherwise it reads like person/s unknown are being rather precious about not having things their way rather than the best interests of the club. |  | | |
| Share sale on 18:43 - Jun 5 with 1710 views | 49thseason |
| Share sale on 14:30 - Jun 5 by 442Dale |
From the club statement today:
“ Whilst discussions were held — under the protection of a Non-Disclosure Agreement — those discussions stalled last year.
At this time no further discussions are planned.”
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From the statement by the new shareholders yesterday:
“ We have been in confidential discussions with the board for some time regarding a possible purchase of the club’s unissued shares. In the midst of these discussions we were privately offered shares owned by three of the club’s major backers, which we duly purchased as individuals.”
and:
“ We are still in contact with members of the board and maintain our interest in helping the club to succeed.” |
"No further discussions are planned". Well, no they wouldn't be give the circumstances we are currently in (Covid). So maybe this is a bit of an attempt to put the genie back in the bottle (NDA) . Or even, reading between the lines... "the discussions are over, the plan is in place and we just need to get an EGM organised to finalise it". |  | | |
| Share sale on 18:55 - Jun 5 with 1678 views | VivaDonaldo |
I'd imagine the statement from the club will be borne out of frustration of private discussion gone public and a sense of an unknown future.
If for whatever reason these talks stalled and instead of working with the club these investors have now struck a deal privately with CD, BG and the family of PH, it almost feels like Altman is drawing a line in the sand.
Saying I'm committed to this opportunity.
Theres a chance that this wasn't revealed before now as Altman wouldn't have wanted to give the impression he was publicly posturing whilst the potential for private negotiation withe board was still possible.
This now makes it a very public discussion and as you can see already from this thread a good amount of fan pressure due to the promised potential investment.
I do get Chris Dunphy's high stock with the fans but isn't it possible that some members of the board riled him up to the point that he'd make a deal with Altman just to make them sweat? He probably thought the money offered was good and could be put to better use than being tied up in a club where he no longer felt he belonged?
We like to believe that a long term custodian like CD would always have the best interests of Dale at heart but even he doesn't have a crystal ball and is capable of error as we all are. Has he let a wolf through the door? Time will tell. | | | |
| Share sale on 19:21 - Jun 5 with 1594 views | 49thseason |
The shares in Rochdale AFC are only worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for them. I think this is a crossroads for the current directors. Their responsibility is to ensure the trading future of Rochdale AFC , they have already admitted they are looking for investment, they have just borrowed money from RMBC to complete pitch renovations, they have no idea when the club might be trading post Corona Virus. So the directors options are limited, either they have to bring in new money by releasing shares or put more money in themselves. If they are not prepared to put money in, it seems foolish to turn away someone who can.
Currently the board own 36.9%, Altman has 14.8%, there are 5 major shareholders with a combined holding of 20.6% and there are 5 shareholders with 5k shares or more accounting for another 5.2%. so some 17 or 18 people currently own about 77.5% of the current shareholding. The rest is owned by people with less than 5k shares. The shares that are unallocated could represent a huge dilution of shares owned by current holders if released, which, were I a shareholder, might entice me to accept a reasonable offer before those extra shares were released.
There must be dozens of people who own shares they have perhaps inherited or bought years ago that would be delighted to accept a decent offer for them as currently there is no market and they are worthless if no one wants to buy them. I think If I owned a couple of thousand and someone offered me say£2 or £3 a share I would be tempted to sell, especially if I thought the buyer might be good for the club. Indeed I might be writing to Altman offering him my shares at this point.
As things stand, it is entirely possible for Altman and Co. with a bit of legwork to get to 51% and have the controlling interest in the company. It would obviously be better if the RAFC Board and the Altman consortium could find a solution that works for everyone, I guess time will tell. | | | |
| Share sale on 19:23 - Jun 5 with 1586 views | judd |
| Share sale on 19:21 - Jun 5 by 49thseason |
The shares in Rochdale AFC are only worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for them. I think this is a crossroads for the current directors. Their responsibility is to ensure the trading future of Rochdale AFC , they have already admitted they are looking for investment, they have just borrowed money from RMBC to complete pitch renovations, they have no idea when the club might be trading post Corona Virus. So the directors options are limited, either they have to bring in new money by releasing shares or put more money in themselves. If they are not prepared to put money in, it seems foolish to turn away someone who can.
Currently the board own 36.9%, Altman has 14.8%, there are 5 major shareholders with a combined holding of 20.6% and there are 5 shareholders with 5k shares or more accounting for another 5.2%. so some 17 or 18 people currently own about 77.5% of the current shareholding. The rest is owned by people with less than 5k shares. The shares that are unallocated could represent a huge dilution of shares owned by current holders if released, which, were I a shareholder, might entice me to accept a reasonable offer before those extra shares were released.
There must be dozens of people who own shares they have perhaps inherited or bought years ago that would be delighted to accept a decent offer for them as currently there is no market and they are worthless if no one wants to buy them. I think If I owned a couple of thousand and someone offered me say£2 or £3 a share I would be tempted to sell, especially if I thought the buyer might be good for the club. Indeed I might be writing to Altman offering him my shares at this point.
As things stand, it is entirely possible for Altman and Co. with a bit of legwork to get to 51% and have the controlling interest in the company. It would obviously be better if the RAFC Board and the Altman consortium could find a solution that works for everyone, I guess time will tell. |
Could our American chums be carpetbagging? | |
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