| Starmer’s dilemma 11:17 - May 10 with 2047 views | Sadoldgit |
Too far left for the middle ground voters in the south. Not progressively modern socialist enough to keep disaffected voters in the north. Hamstrung in his attempts to modernise the party by the all powerful unions who are still rooted in the 20th century. You could argue that Johnson’s success is not down to the fact that he is “clever” (God don’t we all wish that we had studied the “classics” - they come in so handy when dealing with a pandemic) but by the Opposition’s constant ability to shoot themselves in their collective feet. You could argue that Blair was successful despite the Party and it is clear that the rancour he caused with the far left of the Party is still a festering wound. The Greens and LibDems have picked up votes which shows that there is still some life in opposition votes thankfully. Despite the BBC telling us what an awful time Labour have had of the recent elections, they have gone up from being 12 points behind the Tories in the 2019 vote to 7 points behind now. Progress of sorts, but painfully so. I can’t see their fortunes picking up until they stop the infighting and concentrate their firepower on winning the next election, not constantly undermining their own leader. Starmer has two massive battles on his hands. Not only does he need to prove to the electorate that Labour have what it takes to take this country forward after 10 years of appalling austerity, but he has to do that with a large faction of his own party doing their level best to pull the rug from under him at every opportunity. Does he compromise and risk the chance of become left in a neither one thing or another situation, or does he go for broke and risk his leadership position by pushing forward modernist reforms against the will of the far Left? |  | | |  |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:17 - May 11 with 558 views | Sadoldgit |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:10 - May 11 by barry_sanchez |
SOG, I feel when I converse with you I can't be nuanced , you don't have that capability to actually look and see humour through it or sometimes meaningful comment, the only way to exchange with you is hammer blows that are crude, blunt and forceful simply by your very nature. [Post edited 11 May 2021 12:20]
|
Barry, you are the only person ever to have been banned from the Sotonians forum. That took some doing because they have a policy of not banning people. Still, you managed it! You may have all the “nuance” in the world Barry but you have zero self awareness. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:22 - May 11 with 548 views | barry_sanchez |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:17 - May 11 by Sadoldgit |
Barry, you are the only person ever to have been banned from the Sotonians forum. That took some doing because they have a policy of not banning people. Still, you managed it! You may have all the “nuance” in the world Barry but you have zero self awareness. |
If you believe I was the only one I suggest you're wrong, I left and then got banned, lots left as well due to Pap becoming a tad over zealous and controlling, he got his knickers in a twist and saw opportunity over Begum.
He fell for it as well. |  |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:37 - May 11 with 535 views | Sadoldgit |
Personal spats on forums are entertaining for a while Barry but soon become very boring. As you are normally like a dog with a bone in these situations and never let up, I have decided to do you a favour and put you on ignore. Hopefully you won’t find another poor victim to troll and we can all get back to some kind of normality. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:48 - May 11 with 524 views | barry_sanchez |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:37 - May 11 by Sadoldgit |
Personal spats on forums are entertaining for a while Barry but soon become very boring. As you are normally like a dog with a bone in these situations and never let up, I have decided to do you a favour and put you on ignore. Hopefully you won’t find another poor victim to troll and we can all get back to some kind of normality. |
Yes so stop abusing me and lets address Starmers dilemma.
The only way forward is to get a more unifying leader, that would or could be Burnham, David Miliband or someone who's more of a centrist from the northern block, with Starmer we're treading water. | |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 13:00 - May 11 with 521 views | saint22 |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 19:14 - May 10 by GasGiant |
People who read Tory papers tend to vote Tory - why is that even being discussed? It is the trendy lefty assortment of young lawyers, comedians and actors who fill the columns of the Guardian you need to be thinking about. How many White van men and blue collar workers who were once the staple of Labour's northern vote identify with the endless wokeness that stifles debate and bans any argument that doesn't follow the prevailing liberal left orthodoxy on race relations, immigration Brexit, BLM, taking the knee and other issues that tend to have a different slant in Halifax than they do in Hampstead? Labour chose to allow in a liberal left elite that is no longer in line with the many traditional working class apirants who see everything they are proud of dismissed, ridiculed or demolished on every news broadcast and panel game show by every trendy comic or "activist" given a platform for their views. The problem, Saint22 is that every time some berk like Nish Kumar opens his gob to slag off Boris Johnson or to sterotype posh Tories in their Bullingdon clubs, there is one person laughing (you probably) and nine people vowing never ever to vote for anything he supports ever again. Until you recognise and acknowledge this basic truth you will still be on here bleating uselessly about posh Tories and fascists and all the rest of your adolescent bollocks in ten years time. |
Thanks for the somewhat eloquent reply Gas
I guess what i struggle with is the fact as you state the blue collar workers etc struggle to relate to Labours 'wokeness' (stupid word for morally correct viewpoints like racism etc) yet they can get on board with a privileged, entitled toff like Boris? Hows that work? they have zero in common with him
Equally issues have a different slant in Hampstead as they do in Halifax etc yes I agree, but they also have a different slant everywhere yet a buffoon like Boris appeals more than Starmer?
They all fell hook line and sinker for Blairs guff I guess so maybe thats why they do the same for Boris I just dont get it? Maybe its the overriding faux Farage nationalist schtick they all love, like we the British Empire? FFs thats so old hat its barely believable and bordering on racist but I would say its right by the increase in St Georges flags you see
As for your point of working class aspirants getting dismissed by media, equally how about the educated liberals who have to suffer the endless sh1te that is X factor, gogglebox etc it goes both ways
My father was a printer and my mother a shop assistant and i worked hard to get where I am today but the fact the so called working class are deserting Labour or the Lib Dems because they think a tranche of self serving silver spoon Tory MPs who never had to worry are gonna do them right, to me is flabbergasting. Do none of them know of Thatcher et al? |  | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 13:10 - May 11 with 514 views | barry_sanchez |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 13:00 - May 11 by saint22 |
Thanks for the somewhat eloquent reply Gas
I guess what i struggle with is the fact as you state the blue collar workers etc struggle to relate to Labours 'wokeness' (stupid word for morally correct viewpoints like racism etc) yet they can get on board with a privileged, entitled toff like Boris? Hows that work? they have zero in common with him
Equally issues have a different slant in Hampstead as they do in Halifax etc yes I agree, but they also have a different slant everywhere yet a buffoon like Boris appeals more than Starmer?
They all fell hook line and sinker for Blairs guff I guess so maybe thats why they do the same for Boris I just dont get it? Maybe its the overriding faux Farage nationalist schtick they all love, like we the British Empire? FFs thats so old hat its barely believable and bordering on racist but I would say its right by the increase in St Georges flags you see
As for your point of working class aspirants getting dismissed by media, equally how about the educated liberals who have to suffer the endless sh1te that is X factor, gogglebox etc it goes both ways
My father was a printer and my mother a shop assistant and i worked hard to get where I am today but the fact the so called working class are deserting Labour or the Lib Dems because they think a tranche of self serving silver spoon Tory MPs who never had to worry are gonna do them right, to me is flabbergasting. Do none of them know of Thatcher et al? |
One of the reasons is the core of Labour can't relate to the leaders in London, Rotherham and the scandal and the cover up did more damage to the labour core in the North than you could imagine, it turned the heart of the party away to the right and they've now stayed with the tories since UKIP disappeared, many won't come back as they believe rightly or wrongly that labour care more for minorities who've done wrong than the most vulnerable of society, for fear of offence meant many would become victims, in places like Oldham, Batley, Rotherham and Rochdale this will not be forgotten.
There is one reason, its uncomfortable but true. | |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 13:18 - May 11 with 509 views | Sadoldgit |
Thatcher knew what she was doing when she sold off the council houses, creating thousands more new Tories. I can only think that they have tapped into an aspirational thing. Vote Tory and you can have a Tory lifestyle. No matter that we still have food banks and high levels of child poverty. Our public sector services are over stretched and understaffed. The country has long been going to the dogs but Brexit and now Covid have managed to cloud the basic problems that have have from lack of investment at ground root level. I had to chuckle last night when a Tory councillor in Sussex was blaming their drop in votes down to the “levelling up” in the north! Toryism in a nutshell mate. If the money start to get siphoned out of the SE and S up to the N I’m sure a few more people will change their voting habits. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 14:48 - May 11 with 488 views | Berber |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 12:48 - May 10 by 1885_SFC |
You do have to laugh at Starmer. He keeps saying he "takes full responsibility" for the dismal showing at the local elections... and then fires everyone else.
I watched PMQ's the other day where Starmer had his usual 6 questions for Boris Johnson. All six were wasted on funding for the PM's flat refurbishment. That isn't what the people want to hear. They want to hear what Starmer and the Labour Party plan for the future of Britain.
Next time he considers who to sack next - he'd do well to take a good, long look in the mirror. |
Spot on with the misdirected focus on what could prove to be minor indiscretions. If that is the strongest line of attack, they are done for. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Starmer’s dilemma on 14:54 - May 11 with 488 views | GasGiant |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 13:00 - May 11 by saint22 |
Thanks for the somewhat eloquent reply Gas
I guess what i struggle with is the fact as you state the blue collar workers etc struggle to relate to Labours 'wokeness' (stupid word for morally correct viewpoints like racism etc) yet they can get on board with a privileged, entitled toff like Boris? Hows that work? they have zero in common with him
Equally issues have a different slant in Hampstead as they do in Halifax etc yes I agree, but they also have a different slant everywhere yet a buffoon like Boris appeals more than Starmer?
They all fell hook line and sinker for Blairs guff I guess so maybe thats why they do the same for Boris I just dont get it? Maybe its the overriding faux Farage nationalist schtick they all love, like we the British Empire? FFs thats so old hat its barely believable and bordering on racist but I would say its right by the increase in St Georges flags you see
As for your point of working class aspirants getting dismissed by media, equally how about the educated liberals who have to suffer the endless sh1te that is X factor, gogglebox etc it goes both ways
My father was a printer and my mother a shop assistant and i worked hard to get where I am today but the fact the so called working class are deserting Labour or the Lib Dems because they think a tranche of self serving silver spoon Tory MPs who never had to worry are gonna do them right, to me is flabbergasting. Do none of them know of Thatcher et al? |
That's more like it Saint22. We are only talking about a subset of Labour voters jumping ship, but even a 10% swing is enough. As an example of what happened and is still happening, In the last election the former mining district of Bolsover threw out Dennis Skinner, an ex Miner, "The Beast" himself - in favour of a Tory - not a posh silver spooned toff in tails and top hat as you like to caricature all Tories, but just an ordinary middle class aspirant who promised them that their concerns came first. How could this happen? Because this is the root of what Labour have failed to grasp. THe Mining communities were a solid hard left group but that does not imply they held the same set of values as the young left wing voices carrying disproportionate weight on the BBC panel shows, on Newsight and in the current Labour Party. Euroscepticism ran really deep in mining communities, and it was not just that Labour didn't recognise it, it was wave after wave of bright young left wing intellectuals on HIGNFY and the like ridiculing the old left, calling them racist for supporting Brexit, calling them morons, knuckle dragging half wits, dinosaurs, berks. When they voted to remove Skinner it wasn't him they were voting against but the Shami Chakrabartis, the Stewart Lees, the Emily Maitlises the Ian Hislops, and the constant stick prodding that "they" were not just responsible for all the ills in the world but that they are bloody well accountable for it. Boris plays this amiable buffoon for all it's worth but in the end people aren't voting for his class, or even his accent or his lifetyle they are just lending their votes to him to keep hold of what they think of as their own - jobs, homes, welfare state, law and order, clean streets, all the usual old fashioned things. The NHS used to be the great trump card but don't you think voters are now more ambivalent? The Tories threw lots of money - not always in the right places at the right times but all Keir Starmer could do was agree with the spending so when the vaccine rollout turned out to be a big success he didn't have anything to argue against. Most working people aspire to have more and be richer and more successful - perhaps even moreso than those who already have big houses. They outnumber the eco warriors and youth workers who aren't motivated by material things. That is what Thatcher recognised when she sold off council houses. Now it's happening again and Labour need a new John Smith, but instead there is only a gaggle of young human rights lawyers and Green activists - and they are still blaming everyone else. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:42 - May 11 with 470 views | grumpy |
Tory England will pull the union apart.
Wales are mainly Labour supporters, the Scots have a strong voice for Independence and the Irish will do whatever suits.
I do have an issue with the thought that Labour should have taken the Tory's to task more on the virus etc. It is very hard for an opposition party during a crisis such as we have had with the Coronavirus, they have to go along with what they think is the right decisions for the sake of the country.
Jeremy Corbyn, while I didn't disagree with everything he said was not the right man to lead the Labour Party.
Labour now have a mountain to climb, but I do say they have made a step in the right direction with the appointment of Racheal Reeves as Shadow Chancellor ,who I can see as a future leader of the Labour Party,
I look forward to the investigation into how we dealt with the Pandemic because without the good services of the NHS and Army etc we would have been in a very bad place.
Good luck to Tory England because we are going to need it. |  | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:44 - May 11 with 467 views | Bazza |
Some great points there GasG.
I think Saint22 and SOGs etc are stuck on the issue of personalities rather than policies. Sniping at his degree in Classics from a top Uni is silly. I doubt Boris' rich boy shenanigans appeal overmuch to many Tory voters but he has got things done. Did the Corbyn love-in translate into votes? | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:54 - May 11 with 461 views | grumpy |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:44 - May 11 by Bazza |
Some great points there GasG.
I think Saint22 and SOGs etc are stuck on the issue of personalities rather than policies. Sniping at his degree in Classics from a top Uni is silly. I doubt Boris' rich boy shenanigans appeal overmuch to many Tory voters but he has got things done. Did the Corbyn love-in translate into votes? |
What did Boris get done that wasn't already done?
Brexit was given to him on a plate by Corbyn and the Virus rescued by the vaccination programme. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 16:00 - May 11 with 458 views | saint22 |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:44 - May 11 by Bazza |
Some great points there GasG.
I think Saint22 and SOGs etc are stuck on the issue of personalities rather than policies. Sniping at his degree in Classics from a top Uni is silly. I doubt Boris' rich boy shenanigans appeal overmuch to many Tory voters but he has got things done. Did the Corbyn love-in translate into votes? |
This is exactly the issue
Brexit aside "what has he got done"? | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 16:32 - May 11 with 442 views | Sadoldgit |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 15:44 - May 11 by Bazza |
Some great points there GasG.
I think Saint22 and SOGs etc are stuck on the issue of personalities rather than policies. Sniping at his degree in Classics from a top Uni is silly. I doubt Boris' rich boy shenanigans appeal overmuch to many Tory voters but he has got things done. Did the Corbyn love-in translate into votes? |
Ok, personality wise I grant you, he sucks (although some people lap his his bumbling act). But it is his total incompetence that is the main problem. Because he has no principles or morals or beliefs in anything other than looking after himself, he is not the type of person who should be leading the country. He made a real pigs ear of the handling of the pandemic until the vaccines dropped into his lap and saved his arse. He will still have to face a public enquiry in which his arse could end up toasted. What has he achieved? When you look at his time as London amatory most of his “achievements” we often on the back of others. No one talks about the fortune he wasted on trying to get a “green” bridge built across the Thames. He is now blowing money on a bridge over the Irish Sea. He has spent his whole life winging it. The number of people who have employed him over the years with tales about how useless he is are legion. As for this crap about getting Brexit done. In his haste to tick that box he has left all manner of problems, not least the Irish border situation, which could have all kinds of ramifications, not least for the Union. Our problem isn’t that he is a tw at. Our problem is that he is an incompetent tw at. | | | |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 16:32 - May 11 with 442 views | barry_sanchez |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 14:54 - May 11 by GasGiant |
That's more like it Saint22. We are only talking about a subset of Labour voters jumping ship, but even a 10% swing is enough. As an example of what happened and is still happening, In the last election the former mining district of Bolsover threw out Dennis Skinner, an ex Miner, "The Beast" himself - in favour of a Tory - not a posh silver spooned toff in tails and top hat as you like to caricature all Tories, but just an ordinary middle class aspirant who promised them that their concerns came first. How could this happen? Because this is the root of what Labour have failed to grasp. THe Mining communities were a solid hard left group but that does not imply they held the same set of values as the young left wing voices carrying disproportionate weight on the BBC panel shows, on Newsight and in the current Labour Party. Euroscepticism ran really deep in mining communities, and it was not just that Labour didn't recognise it, it was wave after wave of bright young left wing intellectuals on HIGNFY and the like ridiculing the old left, calling them racist for supporting Brexit, calling them morons, knuckle dragging half wits, dinosaurs, berks. When they voted to remove Skinner it wasn't him they were voting against but the Shami Chakrabartis, the Stewart Lees, the Emily Maitlises the Ian Hislops, and the constant stick prodding that "they" were not just responsible for all the ills in the world but that they are bloody well accountable for it. Boris plays this amiable buffoon for all it's worth but in the end people aren't voting for his class, or even his accent or his lifetyle they are just lending their votes to him to keep hold of what they think of as their own - jobs, homes, welfare state, law and order, clean streets, all the usual old fashioned things. The NHS used to be the great trump card but don't you think voters are now more ambivalent? The Tories threw lots of money - not always in the right places at the right times but all Keir Starmer could do was agree with the spending so when the vaccine rollout turned out to be a big success he didn't have anything to argue against. Most working people aspire to have more and be richer and more successful - perhaps even moreso than those who already have big houses. They outnumber the eco warriors and youth workers who aren't motivated by material things. That is what Thatcher recognised when she sold off council houses. Now it's happening again and Labour need a new John Smith, but instead there is only a gaggle of young human rights lawyers and Green activists - and they are still blaming everyone else. |
Great post and sadly very true. | |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 16:43 - May 11 with 432 views | barry_sanchez |
| Starmer’s dilemma on 16:32 - May 11 by Sadoldgit |
Ok, personality wise I grant you, he sucks (although some people lap his his bumbling act). But it is his total incompetence that is the main problem. Because he has no principles or morals or beliefs in anything other than looking after himself, he is not the type of person who should be leading the country. He made a real pigs ear of the handling of the pandemic until the vaccines dropped into his lap and saved his arse. He will still have to face a public enquiry in which his arse could end up toasted. What has he achieved? When you look at his time as London amatory most of his “achievements” we often on the back of others. No one talks about the fortune he wasted on trying to get a “green” bridge built across the Thames. He is now blowing money on a bridge over the Irish Sea. He has spent his whole life winging it. The number of people who have employed him over the years with tales about how useless he is are legion. As for this crap about getting Brexit done. In his haste to tick that box he has left all manner of problems, not least the Irish border situation, which could have all kinds of ramifications, not least for the Union. Our problem isn’t that he is a tw at. Our problem is that he is an incompetent tw at. |
This is a ll well and good, but once again you're missing the point, as bad as he is, as poor and incompetent as he is Labour have made no ground and even lost it, that needs to be addressed.
You keep saying he is crap and he is, even tories say he is crap and lucky but what does that make our lot and the amount of people that have deserted Labour?
Where have they gone?
Your self flagellation reeks of political immaturity, your asking the wrong questions deliberately as you don't want the inconvenient truth.
If Labour pulled back on Palestine, wokeness and accepted Brexit and went after a more common sense approach of nationality, immigration and asimliation then I can assure you they'd rival the tories.
We can be pure but we'll be doing it on the sidelines.
On Pap's woke web I've said it a million times, you just don't want to listen as it doesn't agree with your agenda, wilful ignorance is a powerful beast. | |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
