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In the discussion on veganism a couple of weeks ago, I brought about the discussion point that needlessly killing an animal for sensory pleasure of the tongue, is no different to hurting an animal for other sensory pleasures of the brain.
This has now been brought back into the spotlight by the ever impressive Ed Winters. Zouma was clearly enjoying hurting that animal and getting pleasure out of it… yet people are up in arms.
Hurting animals for some kind of sensory pleasure is something that many people condemning this act partake in daily.
Strange ethical dilemma.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:30 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
The difference there is intention. You don’t intend to kill those things.
For example if you were driving down the road and you accidentally hit a dog, that would be a lot different morally speaking if you intentionally swerved into the pavement to hit it.
And of course, two thirds of crop production for domestic markets (certainly here in Australia for example) are consumed as animal feed. Total animal feed from grains per year is about 9 million tonnes, which is equivalent to about 1 kg per person per day.
So cutting out animal rearing would still lessen the need to grow the majority of crops that are currently grown. Crop production would go down, not up.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 15:35]
But, and a big but, US/Aus production is low welfare, grain-fed and frankly given the absence of welfare laws in US livestock are a cheap and low quality product. Grass fed beef and lamb are a different matter. The U.K., especially the West, is a grass machine. Upland production using traditional breeds is a high quality, high welfare and natural product. One based on centuries of tradition. A U.K. produced vegan diet would be challenging.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:53 - Feb 12 with 715 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:46 - Feb 12 by Professor
But, and a big but, US/Aus production is low welfare, grain-fed and frankly given the absence of welfare laws in US livestock are a cheap and low quality product. Grass fed beef and lamb are a different matter. The U.K., especially the West, is a grass machine. Upland production using traditional breeds is a high quality, high welfare and natural product. One based on centuries of tradition. A U.K. produced vegan diet would be challenging.
High welfare is subjective though isn’t it. They end up in the same place as a low welfare animal and the same fate awaits it.
While land may be plentiful, access to that land for all production needs is not a viable thought process. These animals are bred on property not in the wild, they are a product of the environment the farmer has bought into.
I have no doubt you are right that grass fed animals are nicer to eat and enjoy their short lives more than other animals may. This isn’t really a discussion of meat quality but the ethical slaughter of animals for pleasure.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread which is animal harm being justified and condemned depending on who is getting the pleasure.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:53 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
High welfare is subjective though isn’t it. They end up in the same place as a low welfare animal and the same fate awaits it.
While land may be plentiful, access to that land for all production needs is not a viable thought process. These animals are bred on property not in the wild, they are a product of the environment the farmer has bought into.
I have no doubt you are right that grass fed animals are nicer to eat and enjoy their short lives more than other animals may. This isn’t really a discussion of meat quality but the ethical slaughter of animals for pleasure.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread which is animal harm being justified and condemned depending on who is getting the pleasure.
Listen, you carry on eating what you eat and let other's eat what they want and like and stop trying to force your will on others. Vegans Vegetarians. Meat eaters, People make their own choices and rightly so. End of!!
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:53 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
High welfare is subjective though isn’t it. They end up in the same place as a low welfare animal and the same fate awaits it.
While land may be plentiful, access to that land for all production needs is not a viable thought process. These animals are bred on property not in the wild, they are a product of the environment the farmer has bought into.
I have no doubt you are right that grass fed animals are nicer to eat and enjoy their short lives more than other animals may. This isn’t really a discussion of meat quality but the ethical slaughter of animals for pleasure.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread which is animal harm being justified and condemned depending on who is getting the pleasure.
Well Zouma would have probably got less sticking he had kicked just wife. Not that it justifies anything.
People are too quick to anthropomorphise animal behaviours and actions and use these as an argument. Omnivores like pigs and chickens have far less barriers to killing (even each other) than we have for food.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:41 - Feb 12 with 674 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:35 - Feb 12 by max936
Listen, you carry on eating what you eat and let other's eat what they want and like and stop trying to force your will on others. Vegans Vegetarians. Meat eaters, People make their own choices and rightly so. End of!!
Where do you see me forcing my views on anyone or stopping them partaking in any cruelty?
Did I make you click on this link? Am I stopping you going out and grabbing some animal flesh to devour?
The answer, of course, is no.
If you are feeling annoyed that someone is discussing a fact that there is a victim in your food choice then that may suggest something isn’t sitting quite right with you regarding it.
But if you are unwilling for a discussion around the process of cruelty undertaken in order to bring you pleasure. My point is that it’s pretty hypocritical to condemn Zouma from undertaking his actions against animals for his own pleasure.
To quote you, he can say “I don’t think it’s cruel. You act as you wish, I act as I wish and stop forcing your views on me”. Right?
I’m certainly not forcing you to do anything, I don’t even know you. It’s a discussion.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:36 - Feb 12 by Professor
Well Zouma would have probably got less sticking he had kicked just wife. Not that it justifies anything.
People are too quick to anthropomorphise animal behaviours and actions and use these as an argument. Omnivores like pigs and chickens have far less barriers to killing (even each other) than we have for food.
Of course it doesn’t justify anything and not entirely sure it’s true. But I understand what you are saying, Britain prides itself on being a nation of animal lovers. A notion I have always questioned.
It’s nothing to do with anthropomorphising them, it’s recognising that they are sentient beings. Which of course they are, the level of morality doesn’t stop at if you are a human or not - because that argument of course can also be used to justify Zoumas actions, which I would hope you wouldn’t do. But as I say, I don’t know you.
Basing our morality on the morality of other animals probably isn’t the best route to go down either. We don’t use that to justify other behaviours prevalent in the animal kingdom, rape, infanticide, cannibalism, torture - you name it. Same as using the notion of tradition, the Yulin dog festival for example would upset most people for a lifetime, yet it’s tradition.
We have a choice as humans to cause harm to animals, or try not to. I find it really strange people would try to find justification to cause harm when there is an option not to.
A view like yours I completely disagree with, but understand. You are essentially saying you don’t think we should see animals as intelligent and sentient beings so we can kill and harm them, basically. Obviously I couldn’t disagree more, but your thought process knowing you have that belief seems perfectly aligned with you also eating them for pleasure.
What I don’t understand (and what this thread is about), is those that claim to hate animal cruelty, love animals, think Zouma is awful for harming the cat… yet pay to have far more harm done to other animals on a daily basis for needless pleasure themselves.
That’s the crux of this thread and not a veganism vs meat eater debate, although always happy to have that too. But it’s important that we try and stick to what the point being made is here.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 16:57]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:45 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Of course it doesn’t justify anything and not entirely sure it’s true. But I understand what you are saying, Britain prides itself on being a nation of animal lovers. A notion I have always questioned.
It’s nothing to do with anthropomorphising them, it’s recognising that they are sentient beings. Which of course they are, the level of morality doesn’t stop at if you are a human or not - because that argument of course can also be used to justify Zoumas actions, which I would hope you wouldn’t do. But as I say, I don’t know you.
Basing our morality on the morality of other animals probably isn’t the best route to go down either. We don’t use that to justify other behaviours prevalent in the animal kingdom, rape, infanticide, cannibalism, torture - you name it. Same as using the notion of tradition, the Yulin dog festival for example would upset most people for a lifetime, yet it’s tradition.
We have a choice as humans to cause harm to animals, or try not to. I find it really strange people would try to find justification to cause harm when there is an option not to.
A view like yours I completely disagree with, but understand. You are essentially saying you don’t think we should see animals as intelligent and sentient beings so we can kill and harm them, basically. Obviously I couldn’t disagree more, but your thought process knowing you have that belief seems perfectly aligned with you also eating them for pleasure.
What I don’t understand (and what this thread is about), is those that claim to hate animal cruelty, love animals, think Zouma is awful for harming the cat… yet pay to have far more harm done to other animals on a daily basis for needless pleasure themselves.
That’s the crux of this thread and not a veganism vs meat eater debate, although always happy to have that too. But it’s important that we try and stick to what the point being made is here.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 16:57]
Bloody hell, you’re a boring person, I bet you’re a bundle of laughs in a BBQ party.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:08 - Feb 12 with 648 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:02 - Feb 12 by lifelong
Bloody hell, you’re a boring person, I bet you’re a bundle of laughs in a BBQ party.
It’s not really my job to be exciting, it’s a discussion on a forum.
That’s the great thing about discussions on forums, you can choose to partake in them if you like them or choose not to if you don’t.
Those that compel you to post have usually hit some kind of interest (or nerve) depending on your persuasion. So I always take claims of boredom with a pinch of salt (ethically sourced of course).
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:45 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Of course it doesn’t justify anything and not entirely sure it’s true. But I understand what you are saying, Britain prides itself on being a nation of animal lovers. A notion I have always questioned.
It’s nothing to do with anthropomorphising them, it’s recognising that they are sentient beings. Which of course they are, the level of morality doesn’t stop at if you are a human or not - because that argument of course can also be used to justify Zoumas actions, which I would hope you wouldn’t do. But as I say, I don’t know you.
Basing our morality on the morality of other animals probably isn’t the best route to go down either. We don’t use that to justify other behaviours prevalent in the animal kingdom, rape, infanticide, cannibalism, torture - you name it. Same as using the notion of tradition, the Yulin dog festival for example would upset most people for a lifetime, yet it’s tradition.
We have a choice as humans to cause harm to animals, or try not to. I find it really strange people would try to find justification to cause harm when there is an option not to.
A view like yours I completely disagree with, but understand. You are essentially saying you don’t think we should see animals as intelligent and sentient beings so we can kill and harm them, basically. Obviously I couldn’t disagree more, but your thought process knowing you have that belief seems perfectly aligned with you also eating them for pleasure.
What I don’t understand (and what this thread is about), is those that claim to hate animal cruelty, love animals, think Zouma is awful for harming the cat… yet pay to have far more harm done to other animals on a daily basis for needless pleasure themselves.
That’s the crux of this thread and not a veganism vs meat eater debate, although always happy to have that too. But it’s important that we try and stick to what the point being made is here.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 16:57]
And starvation and malnutrition would be the option for much of Northern Europe if reliant on a vegan diet which cannot be produced locally. Your veganism is a choice from wealth and privilege. A choice you can make. But the increase is worldwide meat demand suggests that nutritional advantages around micronutrients (which you can supplement) and high quality protein are a choice many wish to make. Not from pleasure but complete utility. The desire for meat is far more driven by necessity of the past.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:23 - Feb 12 with 629 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:21 - Feb 12 by Professor
And starvation and malnutrition would be the option for much of Northern Europe if reliant on a vegan diet which cannot be produced locally. Your veganism is a choice from wealth and privilege. A choice you can make. But the increase is worldwide meat demand suggests that nutritional advantages around micronutrients (which you can supplement) and high quality protein are a choice many wish to make. Not from pleasure but complete utility. The desire for meat is far more driven by necessity of the past.
Of course, if it’s a matter of survival then that is absolutely a different discussion. I have always maintained that.
Although with the global market the way it is and trade between countries being a very easy and common practice, I highly doubt that the ceasing of consumption of animal products would result in malnutrition in many parts of the western world.
Meat consumption is actually linked with increased wealth, not decreased. Not everything has to be produced and sourced locally, in fact it rarely is.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:23 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Of course, if it’s a matter of survival then that is absolutely a different discussion. I have always maintained that.
Although with the global market the way it is and trade between countries being a very easy and common practice, I highly doubt that the ceasing of consumption of animal products would result in malnutrition in many parts of the western world.
Meat consumption is actually linked with increased wealth, not decreased. Not everything has to be produced and sourced locally, in fact it rarely is.
Again, not the case. Don’t be blinded by export alone. There are also huge changes in local production around the world with far more local production of meat, eggs and dairy. Much of that increase is in poultry meat and it’s pretty well understood this is the main driver for the future.
Now export, especially long distance as seen into the Middle East from Australia, is a very different question. And almost all ruminants
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:40 - Feb 12 with 611 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:34 - Feb 12 by Professor
Again, not the case. Don’t be blinded by export alone. There are also huge changes in local production around the world with far more local production of meat, eggs and dairy. Much of that increase is in poultry meat and it’s pretty well understood this is the main driver for the future.
Now export, especially long distance as seen into the Middle East from Australia, is a very different question. And almost all ruminants
What isn’t the case?
You think if burgers were banned from the U.K. then everyone would become malnourished and starve to death?
Come on now Prof, you don’t believe that surely to God.
Veganism is not a new thing and this idea that it is a rich western adaptation is a common misconception anyway. It was common place in India, Greece and Mediterranean counties for a very long time.
The justification that everyone would fall to their knees starving to death is just laughable. And I know you know that too you cheeky devil
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
I will maintain that most people eat meat as part of their diet, not because they take pleasure in animals being killed. They have always eaten meat, were brought up eating meat so it is their normal.
If we all went vegan it would cause massive problems and I suppose at least the cruelty you say we do to animals would stop. After all, when they aren't needed or wanted anymore, most of them will be killed off so the land can be used to grow crops. One last act of cruelty to stop us perpetrating the horror eh.
When talking Halal, I am always horrified to see that treatment of animals, I wouldn't knowingly eat halal meat.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:49 - Feb 12 by Catullus
I will maintain that most people eat meat as part of their diet, not because they take pleasure in animals being killed. They have always eaten meat, were brought up eating meat so it is their normal.
If we all went vegan it would cause massive problems and I suppose at least the cruelty you say we do to animals would stop. After all, when they aren't needed or wanted anymore, most of them will be killed off so the land can be used to grow crops. One last act of cruelty to stop us perpetrating the horror eh.
When talking Halal, I am always horrified to see that treatment of animals, I wouldn't knowingly eat halal meat.
Oh now that we can agree on.
Meat consumption is absolutely largely done through habit and completely normalised by society. But that of course doesn’t make it right. Slavery for example was another cruel practice that was completely normalised in society, as was fur production.
I am not saying people eat meat because of the pleasure they derive from the act of killing, but that’s irrelevant. They are paying for that process to happen for the pleasure they can derive from the aftermath. An animal having to suffer in that way to gain that pleasure is not a shock, it’s a considered decision.
As we have touched upon, people going vegan would be a gradual thing where supply and demand would affect the amount of animals bred. There would be no mass slaughter or a situation where animals were set free to roam wild, simply less and less would be artificially bred into existence.
Halal meat is no different to any other, it just means they don’t attempt to use a stun gun first, as touched upon its far from fool proof anyway 15% of the time it doesn’t work anyway and 35% of the time it works but not sufficiently well. They still drain the blood of the animal by slicing its throat and hanging upside down to bleed out. Pigs are usually gassed to death.
There is no getting away from it really.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 17:40 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
What isn’t the case?
You think if burgers were banned from the U.K. then everyone would become malnourished and starve to death?
Come on now Prof, you don’t believe that surely to God.
Veganism is not a new thing and this idea that it is a rich western adaptation is a common misconception anyway. It was common place in India, Greece and Mediterranean counties for a very long time.
The justification that everyone would fall to their knees starving to death is just laughable. And I know you know that too you cheeky devil
We have a choice yes. I choose to eat meat but I am all too aware of how it arrives on my plate. But take into account more than 10,000 years of domestication for food. It’s not simply pleasure. The choice cuts both ways.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:08 - Feb 12 with 599 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:01 - Feb 12 by Professor
We have a choice yes. I choose to eat meat but I am all too aware of how it arrives on my plate. But take into account more than 10,000 years of domestication for food. It’s not simply pleasure. The choice cuts both ways.
Indeed, I would imagine everyone is aware of how it arrives in their plates.
Which brings me back to the thread regarding the hypocrisy regarding Zouma hurting his cat for pleasure when these same people are paying someone else to harm another animal for their pleasure, daily.
History and tradition again should play no part in morality. I would argue that you do eat animal flesh for pleasure, you live in England and can eat a perfectly healthy diet without doing so. You choose not to because you prefer the other option.
Which is your legal choice of course (although legality vs morality have a very interesting path). But again this is not a thread for meat eater vs veganism, or even the obvious benefits of veganism.
The thread is about the hypocrisy of a nation speaking out against needless animal cruelty when they pay to voluntarily partake in the process on a daily basis.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
It's not a considered decision though, most people happily ignore where the meat comes from. Most would be uncomfortable after a trip to an abattoir. It probably wouldn't stop most eating meat and they'd try to forget what they'd seen, such is what us humans are made of, we can ignore things we don't like, pretend they are not there.
Take my post about plants having intelligence, you argued they have no central nervous system etc, what if it turned out they were far more sentient than you like, what would you eat then? We are ALL part of the food chain, the planet needs a balance and doesn't need humans screwing with what evolution took eons to create.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:09 - Feb 12 by Catullus
It's not a considered decision though, most people happily ignore where the meat comes from. Most would be uncomfortable after a trip to an abattoir. It probably wouldn't stop most eating meat and they'd try to forget what they'd seen, such is what us humans are made of, we can ignore things we don't like, pretend they are not there.
Take my post about plants having intelligence, you argued they have no central nervous system etc, what if it turned out they were far more sentient than you like, what would you eat then? We are ALL part of the food chain, the planet needs a balance and doesn't need humans screwing with what evolution took eons to create.
Ignoring something and not knowing something are vastly different things. Whether you choose to ignore the process or not doesn’t take away the fact you know it happens, if you know it happens yet still choose to fund it - then it is a considered decision.
My question from your first paragraph would be, why would most people be uncomfortable visiting an abattoir? If that is the case (and of course you are correct) then that would suggest their actions and their version of morality are at odds. That usually will tell you if something is right or not.
I have to survive, I will eat the things that causes the least amount of suffering. I will try to always choose the path of least destruction if I can help it. If it turns out (it won’t) that plants feel pain like animals do then I would reassess and choose the path of least harm.
But as I said to you at the time, plants are not sentient beings. They have no brain and no central nervous system. You also know this which is why you wouldn’t stop someone mowing their lawn but, I would hope, stop someone torturing a dog for example. Am I right?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:08 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Indeed, I would imagine everyone is aware of how it arrives in their plates.
Which brings me back to the thread regarding the hypocrisy regarding Zouma hurting his cat for pleasure when these same people are paying someone else to harm another animal for their pleasure, daily.
History and tradition again should play no part in morality. I would argue that you do eat animal flesh for pleasure, you live in England and can eat a perfectly healthy diet without doing so. You choose not to because you prefer the other option.
Which is your legal choice of course (although legality vs morality have a very interesting path). But again this is not a thread for meat eater vs veganism, or even the obvious benefits of veganism.
The thread is about the hypocrisy of a nation speaking out against needless animal cruelty when they pay to voluntarily partake in the process on a daily basis.
Well the point about less fuss for beating your wife suggests I broadly agree with that.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:42 - Feb 12 with 574 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:34 - Feb 12 by Professor
Well the point about less fuss for beating your wife suggests I broadly agree with that.
Yep and this thread isn’t designed to call out people like yourself.
We disagree fundamentally on meat eating of course, but we have spoken on that before. It really isn’t what this thread is about.
You don’t seem overly bothered about the cruelty to the animal inflicted by Zouma, which, whilst I find that hard to fathom - it does seem to align with your actions elsewhere, so I can understand your thought process and nobody can accuse you of hypocrisy at least.
It’s the droves of people being outraged (and a lot of them no doubt are genuine in that) that I’m baffled by. I find Zoumas actions sickening, but I find all intentional animal cruelty and harm sickening… which is why I choose to have no part in it.
I can’t understand how someone can be so outraged by that while eating one the very next hour knowing they don’t have to.
It actually blows my mind.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 18:45]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:42 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep and this thread isn’t designed to call out people like yourself.
We disagree fundamentally on meat eating of course, but we have spoken on that before. It really isn’t what this thread is about.
You don’t seem overly bothered about the cruelty to the animal inflicted by Zouma, which, whilst I find that hard to fathom - it does seem to align with your actions elsewhere, so I can understand your thought process and nobody can accuse you of hypocrisy at least.
It’s the droves of people being outraged (and a lot of them no doubt are genuine in that) that I’m baffled by. I find Zoumas actions sickening, but I find all intentional animal cruelty and harm sickening… which is why I choose to have no part in it.
I can’t understand how someone can be so outraged by that while eating one the very next hour knowing they don’t have to.
It actually blows my mind.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 18:45]
It’s an enjoyable and sincere discussion of views. I’m also sure if he had been timed kicking a pig, the outrage would have been somewhat more muted
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:00 - Feb 12 with 535 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 18:09 - Feb 12 by Catullus
It's not a considered decision though, most people happily ignore where the meat comes from. Most would be uncomfortable after a trip to an abattoir. It probably wouldn't stop most eating meat and they'd try to forget what they'd seen, such is what us humans are made of, we can ignore things we don't like, pretend they are not there.
Take my post about plants having intelligence, you argued they have no central nervous system etc, what if it turned out they were far more sentient than you like, what would you eat then? We are ALL part of the food chain, the planet needs a balance and doesn't need humans screwing with what evolution took eons to create.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 16:41 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Where do you see me forcing my views on anyone or stopping them partaking in any cruelty?
Did I make you click on this link? Am I stopping you going out and grabbing some animal flesh to devour?
The answer, of course, is no.
If you are feeling annoyed that someone is discussing a fact that there is a victim in your food choice then that may suggest something isn’t sitting quite right with you regarding it.
But if you are unwilling for a discussion around the process of cruelty undertaken in order to bring you pleasure. My point is that it’s pretty hypocritical to condemn Zouma from undertaking his actions against animals for his own pleasure.
To quote you, he can say “I don’t think it’s cruel. You act as you wish, I act as I wish and stop forcing your views on me”. Right?
I’m certainly not forcing you to do anything, I don’t even know you. It’s a discussion.
Its not a discussion, its an absolute stupid analogy, Zouma kicks and slaps his cat around the kitchen and you compare that to people going to the supermarket and buying meat to cook to put on the table for them and their families to eat, cant you see how preposterous that is.
I'm happy eating meat I enjoy eating meat, I've spent probably 59yrs of my 61 yrs eating meat, would i kick and slap animals or have I ever done so, absolutely not, I get plenty of pleasure enjoying animals though and some brainless thug to behave the way Zouma and others have done is disgusting abhorrent and brainless to do so. The two things are further apart than planet earth and the planet pluto. Discussion over for me, but feel free to crack on.
When I'm ploughing my fields I KNOW that millions of animals are being destroyed every time my tractor goes up and down the field.
I KNOW that when I use my sprayer to spray a field with insecticides that billions are dieing, that's the whole point of spraying.
I KNOW that when I harvest my grain that loads of rodents and larger animals like foxes get caught in the thrasher and go through the machine, coming out in millions of pieces.
But I still do this every harvest.
You cannot have food that doesn't destroy animal lives, but if you choose lamb or beef etc, then one animals dies to produce food for one person, when it's grains, vegetables or fruits it's millions that die for one person.
On the question of my grain being fed to animals, in a perfect world my grain would be of a standard that its fit for human consumption, because I get paid a premium to do this. However in Wales, with the climate we have only a very small percentage makes the grade and the next best option for me financially is to sell for animal feed.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 20:50]
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 22:05 - Feb 12 with 483 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:15 - Feb 12 by max936
Its not a discussion, its an absolute stupid analogy, Zouma kicks and slaps his cat around the kitchen and you compare that to people going to the supermarket and buying meat to cook to put on the table for them and their families to eat, cant you see how preposterous that is.
I'm happy eating meat I enjoy eating meat, I've spent probably 59yrs of my 61 yrs eating meat, would i kick and slap animals or have I ever done so, absolutely not, I get plenty of pleasure enjoying animals though and some brainless thug to behave the way Zouma and others have done is disgusting abhorrent and brainless to do so. The two things are further apart than planet earth and the planet pluto. Discussion over for me, but feel free to crack on.
Don't worry he will crack on, the silly bugger actually stays up all night to make sure he gets the last word, god help me, once he sees this he will be raving ps I actually agree with him over RM and some of what he says about Animal cruelty, however that does not distract from the fact that the guy is a nut job.
ps I actually agree with him over RM and some of what he says about Animal cruelty, however that does not distract from the fact that the guy is a nut job. 
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