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In the discussion on veganism a couple of weeks ago, I brought about the discussion point that needlessly killing an animal for sensory pleasure of the tongue, is no different to hurting an animal for other sensory pleasures of the brain.
This has now been brought back into the spotlight by the ever impressive Ed Winters. Zouma was clearly enjoying hurting that animal and getting pleasure out of it… yet people are up in arms.
Hurting animals for some kind of sensory pleasure is something that many people condemning this act partake in daily.
Strange ethical dilemma.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:15 - Feb 12 by max936
Its not a discussion, its an absolute stupid analogy, Zouma kicks and slaps his cat around the kitchen and you compare that to people going to the supermarket and buying meat to cook to put on the table for them and their families to eat, cant you see how preposterous that is.
I'm happy eating meat I enjoy eating meat, I've spent probably 59yrs of my 61 yrs eating meat, would i kick and slap animals or have I ever done so, absolutely not, I get plenty of pleasure enjoying animals though and some brainless thug to behave the way Zouma and others have done is disgusting abhorrent and brainless to do so. The two things are further apart than planet earth and the planet pluto. Discussion over for me, but feel free to crack on.
It’s not an analogy, they are two situations the same, it’s more a comparison than an analogy, of which it most certainly isn’t stupid.
I know what I’m comparing, maybe you should tell me why it is different. I happen to think it’s worse actually, not even that similar. In one a cat is frightened, probably a little bruised and the other an animal has had its life taken from it. In both instances they were subject to cruelty, both instances were completely needless.
If you are happy eating meat then that’s your prerogative really, you are legally allowed and it’s an informed decision, how long you have done it for is a moot point… but what if he’s happy kicking animals and he had done it for the last 20 years, why is it ok to tell him he can’t enjoy hurting animals while you are paying someone else to hurt animals to enjoy on a daily basis.
That’s the question here.
That is the point of the thread and you clearly are unable to rationalise that position, hence you keep furiously popping in and out without actually saying anything of any substance.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 22:11]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 22:05 - Feb 12 by shingle
Don't worry he will crack on, the silly bugger actually stays up all night to make sure he gets the last word, god help me, once he sees this he will be raving ps I actually agree with him over RM and some of what he says about Animal cruelty, however that does not distract from the fact that the guy is a nut job.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 22:08]
Glad you agree.
We can be nut jobs together.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue (n/t) on 20:27 - Feb 12 by MrFarmer
When I'm ploughing my fields I KNOW that millions of animals are being destroyed every time my tractor goes up and down the field.
I KNOW that when I use my sprayer to spray a field with insecticides that billions are dieing, that's the whole point of spraying.
I KNOW that when I harvest my grain that loads of rodents and larger animals like foxes get caught in the thrasher and go through the machine, coming out in millions of pieces.
But I still do this every harvest.
You cannot have food that doesn't destroy animal lives, but if you choose lamb or beef etc, then one animals dies to produce food for one person, when it's grains, vegetables or fruits it's millions that die for one person.
On the question of my grain being fed to animals, in a perfect world my grain would be of a standard that its fit for human consumption, because I get paid a premium to do this. However in Wales, with the climate we have only a very small percentage makes the grade and the next best option for me financially is to sell for animal feed.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 20:50]
Again all I can do it repeat what I said the first time.
One is an intentional infliction of harm on animals, the other is an accidental harm of animals of which you can take measures to reduce. And of course the reduction in meat consumptions means the reduction of crop growth, not the increase of.
So at the moment we have crop growing and animal slaughter, without animal slaughter we only get crop growing… but less of it.
Wales has an excellent climate for growing all sorts of things, vegetables, crops and fruits which can be produced seasonally - it doesn’t have to be grains. There are various things you could grow and sell, you are not limited to animal quality grains.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Again I’m going to try and wrestle this back on topic.
So moving away from meat eater vs veganism debate, it’s been done to death on here and is not the angle I’m going for on this one. Plenty of time to discuss that further I’m sure, it’s a fairly regular topic.
This thread is about those that condemn the likes of Zouma for hurting an animal for pleasure / yet then presumably in the same day, paying someone else to do far worse to an animal on your behalf… knowing that you don’t need to eat that animal to survive.
So if it’s not an issue of survival, which it isn’t. It becomes an issue of pleasure. So where is the difference?
That’s the question.
As of yet we have had one or two get defensive and say it’s ridiculous, but nobody yet attempted to rationalise why one form of needless harm on an animal is abhorrent and another form of needless harm on an animal is not only perfectly fine… but something to defend.
Anyone?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 19:24 - Feb 12 by Professor
It’s an enjoyable and sincere discussion of views. I’m also sure if he had been timed kicking a pig, the outrage would have been somewhat more muted
Yes something I also find crazy, especially from a nation of dog lovers.
A pig is one of the most intelligent life forms on earth it can play computer games to a higher and more successful standard than a chimp. Their intelligence levels are likened to a human toddler.
Yet people go mad at the Yulin dog festival where tens of thousands of dogs are rounded up and often boiled alive where as they have no issue tucking into a bacon sandwich from an animal that has been burned from the inside out in a gas chamber.
So how is that cruelty to one of nature’s most intelligent life forms perfectly fine yet Zouma slapping a cat causes so much anger - it’s rhetorical really when it comes to you as you aren’t bothered by either…. but more for the wider nation.
Max has rationalised his position and come up with “I like it and I’ve done it for a long time”. What if Zouma likes it and done it for a long time? It’s a bizarre contradictory roundabout that people seem happy to ride.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 22:39]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 22:09 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
It’s not an analogy, they are two situations the same, it’s more a comparison than an analogy, of which it most certainly isn’t stupid.
I know what I’m comparing, maybe you should tell me why it is different. I happen to think it’s worse actually, not even that similar. In one a cat is frightened, probably a little bruised and the other an animal has had its life taken from it. In both instances they were subject to cruelty, both instances were completely needless.
If you are happy eating meat then that’s your prerogative really, you are legally allowed and it’s an informed decision, how long you have done it for is a moot point… but what if he’s happy kicking animals and he had done it for the last 20 years, why is it ok to tell him he can’t enjoy hurting animals while you are paying someone else to hurt animals to enjoy on a daily basis.
That’s the question here.
That is the point of the thread and you clearly are unable to rationalise that position, hence you keep furiously popping in and out without actually saying anything of any substance.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 22:11]
yeah we both have ulterior motives, you think eating meat is a primitive and cruel, and I think eating meat is a natural occurrence,. What you can't and won't accept is difference between killing animals that are bred for the meat trade and domestic animals that are bred as pets that are abused by brainless thugs, The difference is astronomically different, you won't agree of course, but you'd never agree with someone whose opinion differs from yours, its not in your DNA.
I've other things to do than to read your posts, or any others, been plenty of sport on today, which I far more enjoy than to converse with posters such as yourself.
You'll be pleased to know that this is my final post on this thread.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 23:48 - Feb 12 by max936
yeah we both have ulterior motives, you think eating meat is a primitive and cruel, and I think eating meat is a natural occurrence,. What you can't and won't accept is difference between killing animals that are bred for the meat trade and domestic animals that are bred as pets that are abused by brainless thugs, The difference is astronomically different, you won't agree of course, but you'd never agree with someone whose opinion differs from yours, its not in your DNA.
I've other things to do than to read your posts, or any others, been plenty of sport on today, which I far more enjoy than to converse with posters such as yourself.
You'll be pleased to know that this is my final post on this thread.
Being a natural occurrence doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do though, and I would argue breeding billions/trillions of animals artificially into existence is far from what nature intended to be natural. Its as far removed from nature as you could wish to think.
Men sleeping with women they are attracted to is a natural occurrence, however, thankfully as a society we frown upon using that sort of dominance without consent because there is a victim involved. But in terms of discussions of nature, there are many things that are natural that we don't do, walking around naked being one of them.
I don't agree there is a difference no. The only difference between the two is how you view them and the bond you make with them. But that makes no difference to the animal that is feeling the pain or indeed having the cruelty inflicted upon it.
What if Zouma bred that animal to kick because he enjoys it? Does the reason they are bought or bred determine how you can treat it? They don't have less feelings because they are born as a pet or as a vessel for cruelty.
What about dog fighting? Many of these dog fighting rings breed dogs to fight, it provides a livelihood for some. Circuses, animals ok to be bred to perform against their will in those? Whales in sea world bred to be kept in confinement and brought out to perform, that ok?
Does that make it ethical because they were bred for that purpose? If not, why not?
Same goes for needless killing of them to eat their bodies because you like the taste.
......
''you won't agree of course, but you'd never agree with someone whose opinion differs from yours''
Why on earth would I agree with someone who has an opinion I don't agree with?
[Post edited 13 Feb 2022 0:38]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
When I spray my crops, the whole intention of this is to kill all the insects that are eating my crops.
You mentioned a dog crossing the road and being hit by a car, but what of there was hundreds of dogs just sat in the road and you drove straight through them all.
The main reason farmers in Wales, and the UK produce lamb / beef /pork and chichen is because that's what their farm is best suited for.
Financially the best returns are made from vegetables then grains then milk then meat.
The reason most farmers produce meat is that the soils aren't good enough and the weather isn't consistent enough to produce vegetables on a large sustainable scale. What Wales is perfect at growing is Grass!!
Quick question for you....what your opinion on rodent eradication? So in my grain store, where i hold my grains for months at a time until the processors are ready to take it, should I stop using all the rat poisons that I need to keep numbers under control.?
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 08:10 - Feb 13 by MrFarmer
When I spray my crops, the whole intention of this is to kill all the insects that are eating my crops.
You mentioned a dog crossing the road and being hit by a car, but what of there was hundreds of dogs just sat in the road and you drove straight through them all.
The main reason farmers in Wales, and the UK produce lamb / beef /pork and chichen is because that's what their farm is best suited for.
Financially the best returns are made from vegetables then grains then milk then meat.
The reason most farmers produce meat is that the soils aren't good enough and the weather isn't consistent enough to produce vegetables on a large sustainable scale. What Wales is perfect at growing is Grass!!
Quick question for you....what your opinion on rodent eradication? So in my grain store, where i hold my grains for months at a time until the processors are ready to take it, should I stop using all the rat poisons that I need to keep numbers under control.?
Indeed, but you will be growing less crops, spreading less insecticide and thus killing less insects if there was no animals to grow feed for.. As you have said, you send most of your crops to animal feed, as do the majority of grain producers. That’s the point.
I don’t understand your dog analogy. Clearly my dog analogy was in reference to you accidentally killing voles and small mammals in the crop production. But you are growing crops anyway, crop farming is present with or without the extra killing of animals - except there would be less of it because you would not need it for animal feed. So any issues of animal welfare you can think of by growing crops is only a supporting argument for doing less of it, which would be the case without animal farming.
Finances can never justify killing sentient beings, I’m sure the mink fur farmers used to say the same when they were banned from rearing mink before skinning them alive or the farms rearing dogs to fight with. You have to adapt and find your way in other means of production that society demands.
If killing rodents is absolutely necessary such as pest control then it’s understandable - it’s the same argument as pesticides, if food for humans was being destroyed by mice and other things then you are talking survival again, and remember this would happen with or without animal farming and killing. It’s necessity vs needless desire.
[Post edited 13 Feb 2022 8:57]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The reason it goes for animal feed is because its deemed not good enough for human consumption.
In an ideal situation every farm would be mixed and grow everything from veg to meat, but due to the tiny margins that are achieved from producing foods, that the majority of farmers have to specialise into specific systems that suit their farms, in Wales this is normally to grow grass and produce meat.
If I were to produce meat on my farm, I would produce about 300 lambs annually, that's 300 deaths per year. As its an arable farm my guess would be that MILLIONS of animals die every year. And I KNOW this happens, and I accept it will always happen for me to produce food.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 09:05 - Feb 13 with 877 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 08:57 - Feb 13 by MrFarmer
The reason it goes for animal feed is because its deemed not good enough for human consumption.
In an ideal situation every farm would be mixed and grow everything from veg to meat, but due to the tiny margins that are achieved from producing foods, that the majority of farmers have to specialise into specific systems that suit their farms, in Wales this is normally to grow grass and produce meat.
If I were to produce meat on my farm, I would produce about 300 lambs annually, that's 300 deaths per year. As its an arable farm my guess would be that MILLIONS of animals die every year. And I KNOW this happens, and I accept it will always happen for me to produce food.
Well it goes to animals because that is where the demand is, otherwise you would not be able to sell it. There is a need to fill in the production line and you are filling one particular slot.
It certainly would be a rough ride for certain farmers but again that’s the offshoot of making society a more ethical one. As I said the mink and dog farmers I’m sure we’re annoyed when they had to reassess their business, but that’s just the way it would be.
You would have to find where you would fit in with the new needs of society and slot in. You can be sure many farmers would adapt and thrive, others wouldn’t and find something else to do.
Again, food production that kills animals by accident (or to protect the food itself) is not the same as rearing animals with the intention of killing them. That’s the difference.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
I spray my fields to kill all the insects, then I leave it about 3 weeks for the numbers to grow back up to unacceptable levers, then I spray insecticides again, and so on and so on. This is a cycle that happens every spring and summer everywhere over the world. It's not an accident. It's part of the production process.
Same as rodent control in grain stores, same as shooting birds that eat on the crop.
More animals die to produce grains, roots or vegetables then to produce meat in the UK.
It definitely isn't an accident either.
It's a similar argument with soya and rainforest destruction, whilst the majority of the actual soya plant goes into animal feed. The main income is gained from the production of soya oils, the actual soya meal that goes into animal feed is the byproduct. If human stopped using soya oil, the soya meal would stop instantly as the cost of it would be way to high to give it to animals. Yet the animals get blamed for soya production. 🤔
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 10:56 - Feb 13 with 797 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 10:35 - Feb 13 by MrFarmer
But it's not by accident.
I spray my fields to kill all the insects, then I leave it about 3 weeks for the numbers to grow back up to unacceptable levers, then I spray insecticides again, and so on and so on. This is a cycle that happens every spring and summer everywhere over the world. It's not an accident. It's part of the production process.
Same as rodent control in grain stores, same as shooting birds that eat on the crop.
More animals die to produce grains, roots or vegetables then to produce meat in the UK.
It definitely isn't an accident either.
It's a similar argument with soya and rainforest destruction, whilst the majority of the actual soya plant goes into animal feed. The main income is gained from the production of soya oils, the actual soya meal that goes into animal feed is the byproduct. If human stopped using soya oil, the soya meal would stop instantly as the cost of it would be way to high to give it to animals. Yet the animals get blamed for soya production. 🤔
Pesticides aren’t by accident no but you brought up many animal deaths, the accidental killings were regarding rodents while ploughing.
But as I explained, crop production is present in both an animal farming world and a non animal farming world. So I’m not sure what point you are making regarding crop farming. It exists less if animals don’t need to be fed as well as humans, so whatever welfare issues you have with crop farming - they are lessened when you take animals out of the equation.
Kill animals and kill animals as a byproduct of crop farming, or take out the first part and just have the second part would be the option we are discussing here. It’s not animals or crops, it’s animals and crops or no animals and less crops. The second one wins.
That is the same whether you are talking about the Amazon or Cwmaman. Animal farming for food is horrifically inefficient in terms of resources used to energy produced, is extremely cruel and largely awful for the environment. Crop production does not increase if animal farming is eradicated, it decreases.
There is nowhere to go in that particular discussion point until we can get past that fact.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
If Zouma has killed the cat in the most humane way possible and ate it, then it would by hypocritical for meat eaters to call it out just because it’s a different animal food than ‘normal’.
He didn’t, he was just cruel. I think that’s the difference.
Meat eaters can be against animal cruelty.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:10 - Feb 13 with 712 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 12:10 - Feb 13 by Gwyn737
If Zouma has killed the cat in the most humane way possible and ate it, then it would by hypocritical for meat eaters to call it out just because it’s a different animal food than ‘normal’.
He didn’t, he was just cruel. I think that’s the difference.
Meat eaters can be against animal cruelty.
But there is no way to humanely kill a sentient being that doesn’t want to die.
Do you honestly think if he electrocuted his cat, slit its throat and hung it by its tail before chucking it on the BBQ that everyone would be ok with that? Be honest now.
They would call him a psycho and demand his jailing.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:10 - Feb 13 by Dr_Parnassus
But there is no way to humanely kill a sentient being that doesn’t want to die.
Do you honestly think if he electrocuted his cat, slit its throat and hung it by its tail before chucking it on the BBQ that everyone would be ok with that? Be honest now.
They would call him a psycho and demand his jailing.
I’m saying if that’s what he did then meat eaters complaining would be hypocritical.
He didn’t so it’s different.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 22:09 - Feb 13 with 686 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 20:39 - Feb 13 by Gwyn737
I’m saying if that’s what he did then meat eaters complaining would be hypocritical.
He didn’t so it’s different.
Well yes, but they are also hypocritical in this instance too. It doesn't have to be the exact same act of needless harm to be considered hypocritical, they are part of a far worse process that causes far more suffering and harm than Zoumas cat..
Both are needless and both are causing harm to an animal in order to gain pleasure. Whether it makes your brain or taste-buds feel nice shouldn't really make any difference whatsoever in how it is viewed.
Both completely needless, both have intentional violence inflicted on an animal.
One thing is for sure though, I would rather be Zouma's cat than go through the ordeal of what a farmed animal is forced to endure. Horrific.
[Post edited 13 Feb 2022 23:55]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 10:56 - Feb 13 by Dr_Parnassus
Pesticides aren’t by accident no but you brought up many animal deaths, the accidental killings were regarding rodents while ploughing.
But as I explained, crop production is present in both an animal farming world and a non animal farming world. So I’m not sure what point you are making regarding crop farming. It exists less if animals don’t need to be fed as well as humans, so whatever welfare issues you have with crop farming - they are lessened when you take animals out of the equation.
Kill animals and kill animals as a byproduct of crop farming, or take out the first part and just have the second part would be the option we are discussing here. It’s not animals or crops, it’s animals and crops or no animals and less crops. The second one wins.
That is the same whether you are talking about the Amazon or Cwmaman. Animal farming for food is horrifically inefficient in terms of resources used to energy produced, is extremely cruel and largely awful for the environment. Crop production does not increase if animal farming is eradicated, it decreases.
There is nowhere to go in that particular discussion point until we can get past that fact.
Ploughing or cultivation isn't an accident either, farms know the deaths that it will cause.
I don't think you understand the farming system in the UK, where the vast majority of beef or lamb is grass fed only. This is because there are huge parts of the country that can only grow grass. Crops and veg would fail.
The animals are eating grains or roots in some farming systems but these are generally business that have specific contracts to take by products or waste from supermarkets.
You need a mixed farm with diverse crop rotation to survive, having grains or veg for many years in the same fields , leads to massive problems such as insecticides, herbicides and fungicides being over used, and becoming resistant. Just look into the dust bowel in the USA during the 30's , growing grans for years on years and the soil gets so bad it literally blows away.
You need agricultural systems that involves animals and crops.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 08:46 - Feb 14 with 625 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 07:47 - Feb 14 by MrFarmer
Ploughing or cultivation isn't an accident either, farms know the deaths that it will cause.
I don't think you understand the farming system in the UK, where the vast majority of beef or lamb is grass fed only. This is because there are huge parts of the country that can only grow grass. Crops and veg would fail.
The animals are eating grains or roots in some farming systems but these are generally business that have specific contracts to take by products or waste from supermarkets.
You need a mixed farm with diverse crop rotation to survive, having grains or veg for many years in the same fields , leads to massive problems such as insecticides, herbicides and fungicides being over used, and becoming resistant. Just look into the dust bowel in the USA during the 30's , growing grans for years on years and the soil gets so bad it literally blows away.
You need agricultural systems that involves animals and crops.
But what point are you making with that? I don’t understand what it is you are trying to convey? As I’ve said a few times now, crop growing goes down with the removal of animal farming. So whatever issues you raise about welfare with crop farming only supports the vegan argument.
Your point regarding what animals die during ploughing is intent. You aren’t going out to kill an animal, it happens to be the unavoidable byproduct of it.
Most grain grown on the planet is fed to animals, it’s just a fact. Whether some are grass fed doesn’t really mean anything. It’s still not a good reason to take their life from them and inflict violence on them.
If you don’t own a farm with good or suitable enough soil or environmental conditions to grow a certain thing then that’s just unlucky I suppose. Nobody has a born right to farm, if you are unable to fit in with the demands of the public then you have to find something else to do.
There are a lot of industries that change once improvements to society are made and people within those industries have to adapt or change. There is enough quality crops already grown in the world right now to feed every person on the planet, there is no need to adapt on a global scale, but locally farmers again may well have to adapt, adjust or do something else.
Nobody is owed a living and if some people need to find something else as a result of making society a more ethical one then that’s just the way it is. Was the same when fur got banned, was the same when cigarettes were taxed highly and no doubt at some point in the future will be the same when animal farming gets looked at closer.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 08:46 - Feb 14 by Dr_Parnassus
But what point are you making with that? I don’t understand what it is you are trying to convey? As I’ve said a few times now, crop growing goes down with the removal of animal farming. So whatever issues you raise about welfare with crop farming only supports the vegan argument.
Your point regarding what animals die during ploughing is intent. You aren’t going out to kill an animal, it happens to be the unavoidable byproduct of it.
Most grain grown on the planet is fed to animals, it’s just a fact. Whether some are grass fed doesn’t really mean anything. It’s still not a good reason to take their life from them and inflict violence on them.
If you don’t own a farm with good or suitable enough soil or environmental conditions to grow a certain thing then that’s just unlucky I suppose. Nobody has a born right to farm, if you are unable to fit in with the demands of the public then you have to find something else to do.
There are a lot of industries that change once improvements to society are made and people within those industries have to adapt or change. There is enough quality crops already grown in the world right now to feed every person on the planet, there is no need to adapt on a global scale, but locally farmers again may well have to adapt, adjust or do something else.
Nobody is owed a living and if some people need to find something else as a result of making society a more ethical one then that’s just the way it is. Was the same when fur got banned, was the same when cigarettes were taxed highly and no doubt at some point in the future will be the same when animal farming gets looked at closer.
It's not just unlucky. Large proportions of the world can't sustain crop production to an extent to provide sufficient nutrition through plants alone. That's the point of worry around driving monoculture to support small numbers of crops that provide sufficient high-quality protein. Including most of Wales. Now your argument is true it is not a requirement to do so, but genuinely without animal protein until the 1960s/70s there would have been significant problems in the UK and this remains in rural Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia where it's simply not feasible to grow crops like soya or sufficient beans and pulses.
Secondly you remove choice. I would invite you to spend two weeks in rural Ethiopia where injera and shiro wat are the only food options. You can live, but it's not life. There are real dangers of removing animals from agricultural systems. As I have said before to you, most of those engaged in understanding food production systems are amongst the most against imposed veganism,
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 10:07 - Feb 14 with 603 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 09:27 - Feb 14 by Professor
It's not just unlucky. Large proportions of the world can't sustain crop production to an extent to provide sufficient nutrition through plants alone. That's the point of worry around driving monoculture to support small numbers of crops that provide sufficient high-quality protein. Including most of Wales. Now your argument is true it is not a requirement to do so, but genuinely without animal protein until the 1960s/70s there would have been significant problems in the UK and this remains in rural Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia where it's simply not feasible to grow crops like soya or sufficient beans and pulses.
Secondly you remove choice. I would invite you to spend two weeks in rural Ethiopia where injera and shiro wat are the only food options. You can live, but it's not life. There are real dangers of removing animals from agricultural systems. As I have said before to you, most of those engaged in understanding food production systems are amongst the most against imposed veganism,
But they already do, the majority of the world already eats enough crops to sustain them. Whether they are locally grown or imported is irrelevant.
Those that wouldn’t be able to get these crops if we remove animal agriculture will be the same places that can’t get it now. In those areas then of course they have to rely on other means to survive, animals may well be that, such as the Masai.
There is huge amounts of protein to get from a vegan diet, way more enough than a human can ever need. There are an ever increasing amount of vegan body builders who say their muscle growth is far better without animal products.
Not sure what you mean by removing the choice to eat animals is not life. I haven’t eaten an animal for the best part of a decade now, I can’t say my life has suffered in any way shape or form. I would say if your life is enriched by a sausage then there are deeper issues there than the ability to eat animals.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
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ps I actually agree with him over RM and some of what he says about Animal cruelty, however that does not distract from the fact that the guy is a nut job. 
