| What about our Academy players 15:18 - Jul 4 with 2627 views | GRIM |
It would appear that Saints have adopted a policy of paying big money for young talent from other clubs with the intention of giving them game time & selling them on at at profit.
Financially a sound idea providing we can retain our status in premier lge.
But, where is the incentive & what are the chances of our own Academy Players getting game time.
Historically we have been the source of young players being sold for decent money.
But let's hope this policy works for us.
We'll certainly have a bigger squad but debatable if it'll be a better squad.
But really good to see some new faces at the club.
Can't wait to see how many of them make the 1st team. |  | | |  |
| What about our Academy players on 17:40 - Jul 4 with 2520 views | Poirot |
We currently do have a couple of good academy players, that are wanted by other clubs with very deep pockets. For example Chelsea just got our U18 goalie and Newccastle want two players. [Post edited 4 Jul 2022 22:29]
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| What about our Academy players on 18:55 - Jul 4 with 2457 views | Berber |
Recent history suggests that our academy is producing League 1 players, with an occasional Championship one. We are not in the same game as Everton and co, for buying and our recent pattern of buying moderately priced players with any kind of experience has generally not worked. Buy cheap, buy twice, or three times. The relative successes of KWP, Tino and Broja suggest that it is a better risk to go that route. Fingers crossed. |  | | |
| What about our Academy players on 21:25 - Jul 4 with 2377 views | SaintNick |
| What about our Academy players on 18:55 - Jul 4 by Berber |
Recent history suggests that our academy is producing League 1 players, with an occasional Championship one. We are not in the same game as Everton and co, for buying and our recent pattern of buying moderately priced players with any kind of experience has generally not worked. Buy cheap, buy twice, or three times. The relative successes of KWP, Tino and Broja suggest that it is a better risk to go that route. Fingers crossed. |
I have said this before, clubs sign players aged 8 -10, we suffering for the fact that when we went into administration we lost out on a lot of top youngsters at the time to the likes of Chelsea, the academy took time to build up again and is starting to reap dividends again, but for now we are paying the price for 2009-2012-13 when the academy was not that strong |  |
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| What about our Academy players on 22:17 - Jul 4 with 2331 views | Berber |
| What about our Academy players on 21:25 - Jul 4 by SaintNick |
I have said this before, clubs sign players aged 8 -10, we suffering for the fact that when we went into administration we lost out on a lot of top youngsters at the time to the likes of Chelsea, the academy took time to build up again and is starting to reap dividends again, but for now we are paying the price for 2009-2012-13 when the academy was not that strong |
That undoubtedly has had an impact. But it is some time since we produced a first eleven success, and still none imminent. Those 7 and 8 year olds will be 15 and 16 now. I don’t think the dearth of results from the academy can be put down to a relatively short episode nearly a decade ago. There is no doubt that Chelsea especially have been more active in the area though. | | | |
| What about our Academy players on 22:25 - Jul 4 with 2323 views | SaintNick |
| What about our Academy players on 22:17 - Jul 4 by Berber |
That undoubtedly has had an impact. But it is some time since we produced a first eleven success, and still none imminent. Those 7 and 8 year olds will be 15 and 16 now. I don’t think the dearth of results from the academy can be put down to a relatively short episode nearly a decade ago. There is no doubt that Chelsea especially have been more active in the area though. |
in 2009 when we were in administration, we could not sign a new intake of academy players until end of July and by then most of the good players had been taken, it impacted for about 3 years as a lot of players further up in the system also left, for several years we just signed players we knew would not make it, but we had to do it because we had to run a youth team.
Back in 2012 people were salivating over Luke Shaw and saying how good our youth system was, but truth was in was in a mess.
Hopefully now the 8 year olds sigend a decade or so will start to come through | |
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| What about our Academy players on 23:20 - Jul 4 with 2282 views | ElijahK |
It’s all down to positions that we need though, compared to the positions that we can provide.
As I’ve spoken to soo many academy coaches and parents of those players over the years when officiating there, whether that be at Staplewood, Duck Lane (aka Bournemouths), Roko (aka the skates), stoneham lane/silverlake (Eastleigh) as well as many more, and they all say of how very few will make the team. As you’ve gotta be the very best to make that team, and soo very few are, which is why these days they also get players to do college courses when they leave school and do the academy full time, as most won’t get contracts, so need to have something for when they do get dropped. And even some parents don't let their kids do it after school as they know they’re not good enough, whilst others may also know it, but let them continue only so that they may still have a chance of making a lower league team instead.
As it makes sense when you think about it, as each team has an academy, and each teams first team has like what around 25 players. Those players are aged like 18 to 30, so on average you’ve got 2 per year/age. So even though we have like 15 academy teams, only around 2 will make the first team on average, and there will be droughts and there will be loads coming through at certain points. And when you look at how many first team players for each prem team have actually come from their academy, it’s probably only around 2, which is how many it usually is when we play (as it’s always Prowse, and usually and often some other academy player is playing). But on average only 2 make it through a year, and most of the time those youth get loaned out to lower teams and don’t readily challenge for the first team until they’re like 21 or so.
And it’s not only due to such a small percent getting through, but also due to what positions are needed and what star players are coming through. As right now we need a striker, and centre half, but if a young fullback or central midfielder comes in, they won’t have many opportunities to play as we don’t need the positions in which they play, as they’re well covered, whilst if they’re a centre half/striker then they will get more. But when the positions they play aren’t needed, they leave, so don’t become our youth anymore. As there’s a bit of luck to it as well, as youth players do need to come through at the right time and certainly take their opportunities to get into the team, as if they don’t then a replacement is bought for their position and they’ve missed their chance.
As I do agree that our academy has taken a dip in recent years, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s as major as some may think/make it out to be. | |
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| What about our Academy players on 09:28 - Jul 5 with 2140 views | SaintNick |
| What about our Academy players on 23:20 - Jul 4 by ElijahK |
It’s all down to positions that we need though, compared to the positions that we can provide.
As I’ve spoken to soo many academy coaches and parents of those players over the years when officiating there, whether that be at Staplewood, Duck Lane (aka Bournemouths), Roko (aka the skates), stoneham lane/silverlake (Eastleigh) as well as many more, and they all say of how very few will make the team. As you’ve gotta be the very best to make that team, and soo very few are, which is why these days they also get players to do college courses when they leave school and do the academy full time, as most won’t get contracts, so need to have something for when they do get dropped. And even some parents don't let their kids do it after school as they know they’re not good enough, whilst others may also know it, but let them continue only so that they may still have a chance of making a lower league team instead.
As it makes sense when you think about it, as each team has an academy, and each teams first team has like what around 25 players. Those players are aged like 18 to 30, so on average you’ve got 2 per year/age. So even though we have like 15 academy teams, only around 2 will make the first team on average, and there will be droughts and there will be loads coming through at certain points. And when you look at how many first team players for each prem team have actually come from their academy, it’s probably only around 2, which is how many it usually is when we play (as it’s always Prowse, and usually and often some other academy player is playing). But on average only 2 make it through a year, and most of the time those youth get loaned out to lower teams and don’t readily challenge for the first team until they’re like 21 or so.
And it’s not only due to such a small percent getting through, but also due to what positions are needed and what star players are coming through. As right now we need a striker, and centre half, but if a young fullback or central midfielder comes in, they won’t have many opportunities to play as we don’t need the positions in which they play, as they’re well covered, whilst if they’re a centre half/striker then they will get more. But when the positions they play aren’t needed, they leave, so don’t become our youth anymore. As there’s a bit of luck to it as well, as youth players do need to come through at the right time and certainly take their opportunities to get into the team, as if they don’t then a replacement is bought for their position and they’ve missed their chance.
As I do agree that our academy has taken a dip in recent years, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s as major as some may think/make it out to be. |
A good post that clarifies a few points, these stats have always been roughly consistent over the years.
Take a look at the Saints FA Cup team of 1976 how many home grown players were in the 12 on duty that day ? The answer is 3 Holmes, Channon & Stokes.
League cup final in 1979 there were 5 Holmes, Waldron, Williams, Hayes & Sealy, the latter two never really made it as first team regulars
The squad of 83/84 was a golden period, we had Moran Wallace, Williams, Agboola & Holmes, there were plenty of home grown fringe players but few who made it as genuine regulars
2003 Cup final was the same just 3 home grown in the starting line up Baird, Bridge & Oakley
Thats just a snapshot, we have done better than most, but 3 home grown regulars in a side is good going, the reality these days is much less than that
Forw | |
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| What about our Academy players on 09:39 - Jul 5 with 2138 views | PaleRider |
| What about our Academy players on 09:28 - Jul 5 by SaintNick |
A good post that clarifies a few points, these stats have always been roughly consistent over the years.
Take a look at the Saints FA Cup team of 1976 how many home grown players were in the 12 on duty that day ? The answer is 3 Holmes, Channon & Stokes.
League cup final in 1979 there were 5 Holmes, Waldron, Williams, Hayes & Sealy, the latter two never really made it as first team regulars
The squad of 83/84 was a golden period, we had Moran Wallace, Williams, Agboola & Holmes, there were plenty of home grown fringe players but few who made it as genuine regulars
2003 Cup final was the same just 3 home grown in the starting line up Baird, Bridge & Oakley
Thats just a snapshot, we have done better than most, but 3 home grown regulars in a side is good going, the reality these days is much less than that
Forw |
Nick, the point is good but you're even talking about an earlier, less international era. I think an interesting comparison would be to other, similar teams at the moment. | | | |
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| What about our Academy players on 11:14 - Jul 5 with 2078 views | ElijahK |
| What about our Academy players on 09:39 - Jul 5 by PaleRider |
Nick, the point is good but you're even talking about an earlier, less international era. I think an interesting comparison would be to other, similar teams at the moment. |
This is from a few years ago, but I think it’s stayed roughly the same (although I think Man U will have dropped by a bit) and as you can see from it, there’s only like 2 players that actually play often at most teams, as yeah many have more than 2, but it’s only 2 players that actually regularly play.
https://www.squawka.com/en/every-premier-league-club-ranked-use-academy-players/
And the main reason as to why the likes of arsenal, Man U and Chelsea are up there is due to the fact that they can attract in players from anywhere due to how big their club is, and sign many when they’re younger (so in a way do still buy their team and is why when you look at the England youth teams, when they’re younger, there’s less “top 6” players in them, whilst when they get older more and more appear/are bought by them) and don’t have to worry as much about players leaving their academy, and also have many academies across the world (as both Chelsea and spurs have one at Sparsholt, but it’s like a backup academy, whilst most other teams only have a few, the likes of Chelsea have loads all across the world).
Also Chelsea have a decent tactic of loaning out their youth to lower EFL teams and doing deals around them, which has worked well for them.
But another reason as to why it goes well for their academy players is down to more psychological reasons, like how many are overrated. As whenever a player plays for a “top 6” team, with all their glory hunters across the world, they’re seen as “world class”, the “best in the world,” “amazing” etc, even though they can be sh*te! But because soo many rate them soo highly, it almost, in a way, passes on so that more and more people rate them, and that therefore increases their reputation, value, confidence etc, and can help the team boast about how good they supposedly are.
As the likes of Rashford, Reece James, Harvey Elliot, Scott McTomminay, Smith Rowe, are all miles overrated, with there being many better players out there. But they still make the England squad, their teams 11, get talked about all the time and are rated soo highly, because of how overrated they can become. And this can also lead to them getting more confidence which can sometimes help them as a player.
Because right now, KWP is better than Reece James, Prowse is better than McTomminay or Elliot, and I’m sure many of these other young lads coming through will be better, but if anyone said that to any non saints fans, they’d probably disagree for most of them. Which is why those players are picked for the England squad over the better players, which is due to go overrated they are, which is simply due to who they play for.
As these new youth lads we’ve bought could be great, but unless they’re amazing, people will still act like many of the academy players I named before are easily better, simply because of who they play for. Which is why if the league actually became competitive once again,, it wouldn’t be the same for the academy products. And this is another reason as to why they do much better, as in reality it’s only really Trent, Kane, Saka, Mount and Phoden that are actually top quality players that have been produced by a “top 6”’s teams academy. Whilst most of the other players are only ever seen as being as good as them because of how overrated they are. | |
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| What about our Academy players on 13:51 - Jul 5 with 2000 views | solent_toffee |
| What about our Academy players on 21:25 - Jul 4 by SaintNick |
I have said this before, clubs sign players aged 8 -10, we suffering for the fact that when we went into administration we lost out on a lot of top youngsters at the time to the likes of Chelsea, the academy took time to build up again and is starting to reap dividends again, but for now we are paying the price for 2009-2012-13 when the academy was not that strong |
Chelsea now also have a footprint all over the country, but even more so in the South East. Aren’t Broja and Livramento both Slough lads? In the past both would have been on Saints radar, same with Simeu who was picked up by Chelsea in Southampton along with another lad who went to onto play for Germany (forget his names now). Not to mention Mount (well you have had JWP and Oxland Chamberlain previously).
I read somewhere that Brentford struggle with their academy as players get to a certain age and then Chelsea swoop in and get them. | | | |
| What about our Academy players on 16:02 - Jul 5 with 1914 views | IanSouthstander |
| What about our Academy players on 13:51 - Jul 5 by solent_toffee |
Chelsea now also have a footprint all over the country, but even more so in the South East. Aren’t Broja and Livramento both Slough lads? In the past both would have been on Saints radar, same with Simeu who was picked up by Chelsea in Southampton along with another lad who went to onto play for Germany (forget his names now). Not to mention Mount (well you have had JWP and Oxland Chamberlain previously).
I read somewhere that Brentford struggle with their academy as players get to a certain age and then Chelsea swoop in and get them. |
Jamal Musiala. Raised in Southampton and played in our youth team before going on to bigger things.
Famously , or infamously referred to his memory of Southampton as a "shithole"
Nice lad. |  | | |
| What about our Academy players on 16:51 - Jul 5 with 1882 views | Berber |
| What about our Academy players on 23:20 - Jul 4 by ElijahK |
It’s all down to positions that we need though, compared to the positions that we can provide.
As I’ve spoken to soo many academy coaches and parents of those players over the years when officiating there, whether that be at Staplewood, Duck Lane (aka Bournemouths), Roko (aka the skates), stoneham lane/silverlake (Eastleigh) as well as many more, and they all say of how very few will make the team. As you’ve gotta be the very best to make that team, and soo very few are, which is why these days they also get players to do college courses when they leave school and do the academy full time, as most won’t get contracts, so need to have something for when they do get dropped. And even some parents don't let their kids do it after school as they know they’re not good enough, whilst others may also know it, but let them continue only so that they may still have a chance of making a lower league team instead.
As it makes sense when you think about it, as each team has an academy, and each teams first team has like what around 25 players. Those players are aged like 18 to 30, so on average you’ve got 2 per year/age. So even though we have like 15 academy teams, only around 2 will make the first team on average, and there will be droughts and there will be loads coming through at certain points. And when you look at how many first team players for each prem team have actually come from their academy, it’s probably only around 2, which is how many it usually is when we play (as it’s always Prowse, and usually and often some other academy player is playing). But on average only 2 make it through a year, and most of the time those youth get loaned out to lower teams and don’t readily challenge for the first team until they’re like 21 or so.
And it’s not only due to such a small percent getting through, but also due to what positions are needed and what star players are coming through. As right now we need a striker, and centre half, but if a young fullback or central midfielder comes in, they won’t have many opportunities to play as we don’t need the positions in which they play, as they’re well covered, whilst if they’re a centre half/striker then they will get more. But when the positions they play aren’t needed, they leave, so don’t become our youth anymore. As there’s a bit of luck to it as well, as youth players do need to come through at the right time and certainly take their opportunities to get into the team, as if they don’t then a replacement is bought for their position and they’ve missed their chance.
As I do agree that our academy has taken a dip in recent years, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s as major as some may think/make it out to be. |
Some good points, but 2 per year, for ages between the 18-30 you mention would give a lot more “contenders”. Assuming that once players get to 23/24, they will either be in the squad or gone. Over the past 5 years, have there really been 10 academy contenders? I’d say only Smallbone has been a real contender.
If you were a local dad with a son with talent, looking at what is happening through the Chelsea academy, where would you send him? Nick’s “give us 6 or 7 years and we’ll show you.” Wouldn’t cut much ice with me.
Hopefully the new bloke will buy the academy some time | | | |
| What about our Academy players on 17:52 - Jul 5 with 1833 views | ElijahK |
| What about our Academy players on 16:51 - Jul 5 by Berber |
Some good points, but 2 per year, for ages between the 18-30 you mention would give a lot more “contenders”. Assuming that once players get to 23/24, they will either be in the squad or gone. Over the past 5 years, have there really been 10 academy contenders? I’d say only Smallbone has been a real contender.
If you were a local dad with a son with talent, looking at what is happening through the Chelsea academy, where would you send him? Nick’s “give us 6 or 7 years and we’ll show you.” Wouldn’t cut much ice with me.
Hopefully the new bloke will buy the academy some time |
Yeah but like I also said, most don’t actually contend for the team until they’re like 21, which is the sort of age that most of our current academy products are coming to | |
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| What about our Academy players on 08:39 - Jul 6 with 1726 views | Berber |
“ But another reason as to why it goes well for their academy players is down to more psychological reasons, like how many are overrated. As whenever a player plays for a “top 6” team, with all their glory hunters across the world, they’re seen as “world class”, the “best in the world,” “amazing” etc, even though they can be sh*te! But because soo many rate them soo highly, it almost, in a way, passes on so that more and more people rate them, and that therefore increases their reputation, value, ”
You are right that the media go overboard though,and the universal lauding of Bielsa and everything Leeds was cringeworthy. He got the best out of a moderate bunch as last season showed.
Last season we had 2 Chelsea academy lads who were first picks for more than half the season. The rest of their prime academy products are in the Chelsea squad. I don’t think you can say that they were over rated simply because they were from Chelsea. KWP was a steal (and A Spurs development). Reece James is both an exciting attacking FB, and has shown that he can nullify top quality players for the whole game at the same time. Sadly, KWP is not that consistent, getting caught out too often, though fully deserving of his chance on the national stage, andI’m glad we have got him.
In the same way, England actually look a better side with Mount in than JWP, not just on paper, but the way they play. I’d pick JWP over Philips any day of the week though. | | | |
| What about our Academy players on 13:16 - Jul 6 with 1686 views | ElijahK |
| What about our Academy players on 08:39 - Jul 6 by Berber |
“ But another reason as to why it goes well for their academy players is down to more psychological reasons, like how many are overrated. As whenever a player plays for a “top 6” team, with all their glory hunters across the world, they’re seen as “world class”, the “best in the world,” “amazing” etc, even though they can be sh*te! But because soo many rate them soo highly, it almost, in a way, passes on so that more and more people rate them, and that therefore increases their reputation, value, ”
You are right that the media go overboard though,and the universal lauding of Bielsa and everything Leeds was cringeworthy. He got the best out of a moderate bunch as last season showed.
Last season we had 2 Chelsea academy lads who were first picks for more than half the season. The rest of their prime academy products are in the Chelsea squad. I don’t think you can say that they were over rated simply because they were from Chelsea. KWP was a steal (and A Spurs development). Reece James is both an exciting attacking FB, and has shown that he can nullify top quality players for the whole game at the same time. Sadly, KWP is not that consistent, getting caught out too often, though fully deserving of his chance on the national stage, andI’m glad we have got him.
In the same way, England actually look a better side with Mount in than JWP, not just on paper, but the way they play. I’d pick JWP over Philips any day of the week though. |
You say that about James, but I don’t think he is that consistent, whilst I do think KWP is.
And yeah we’ve signed a few Chelsea youth players that have turned out great, but I was more referring to the ones that stay there/are like 18 and just starting to play, as they loose most of that hype by their 20’s.
And Mount wise, I think he is great for his club, but for England he’s rubbish, so even though mount is better than Prowse at their clubs, for their national team I’d put Prowse in all day long, as whenever mounts played for England recently, everyone’s been criticising how poor he’s been, whilst Prowse ain’t necessarily steeling all the limelight, but at least he’s not being criticised. | |
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| What about our Academy players on 12:00 - Jul 11 with 1471 views | Poirot |
Looks like chelsea might taken another player from our academy, Tyler Dibling is wanted and they have already taken the goalkeeper. I know we might do a similar thing from other clubs., but financially from these two going we dont get next to nothing in return. | | | |
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