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Remain With or Leave the EU on 06:47 - Jun 7 by AnotherJohn
Interesting link. I voted 'yes' for what at the time appeared to be a trade agreement. It will be 'out' this time.
Intriguingly Lincolnshire recorded the strongest 'yes' vote in the early counting in 1975. Did the citizens of that county realise what was coming I wonder?
The other gem is that the SNP campaigned for 'no', and there were fears that a yes vote would lead to the break-up of the UK.
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 7:03]
Yes, funny that (re: SNP).
Anyone would swear they just want independence referendums ad infinitum until they achieve their goal; the break up of the UK and independence for Scotland!
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:54 - Jun 6 by CountyJim
On weekend nearly everyone I spoke to is voting to leave I think the Polls are wrong
It proves people are thick.
I've spoken people who are openly Plaid saying we should leave. You can't be Plaid and anti EU, it's not possible.
I don't know which way to vote but if I'm honest I see strength in the union although at this time it appears to be an unstoppable political beast driven by corporate agendas which would be the single biggest defining factor for me when time comes to put an X in a box.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:36 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
It's really not for me to correct you or any other poster Nook.
I'll just state what I understand the deal on tax credits to be.....actually, no I won't, I'll just copy and paste how the deal has been reported. It's quicker (apologies to all offended intellectuals).....
MIGRATION AND BENEFITS
Pledge
"We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015
What he got
Draft text: This was Cameron's trophy achievement. It consists of a mechanism to “limit the access of union workers newly entering its labour market to in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment” if the UK, or any other member state, can show that EU migrants are “putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of its public services”.
No details are provided on what “excessive pressure” means, but a note on the mechanism says it will be tabled on the understanding that "it can and will be used" by the UK and the UK will do so "in full expectation of obtaining approval". However the control of the brake appears to remain firmly in the hands of the Commission who must be "notified" by any member state that they believe they are eligible to use it.
The text also adds an important caveat that the “limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion” to be followed by “gradually increasing access to such benefits” the longer that an EU worker stays in the host member state’s labour market.
Final deal:
All of the above, including a declaration that the four-year brake will be available to Britain for “a period of 7 years”. This is a ‘win’ for Cameron, although he had reportedly demanded up to 13 years availability.
On the negative side, Mr Cameron’s negotiators were unable to remove the “tapering mechanism” which will see EU migrants start to receive benefits when they start to contribute to the system — probably after their first year of work.
Critics will point out that deal only fully denies in-work benefits for one year, not four. There is also no mention of the benefits changes being protected by treaty change, which some critics have warned could leave them vulnerable to challenge in the European Courts.
Cameron has admitted subsequently that this deal will not put off immigrants from the EU...that is, if we could even manage to persuade the European Commission that EU migration is "putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of our public services". Do remember that Commissioners are appointed by member states and some of those states benefit economically from the money being sent home by their migrant workers currently. e.g. Poland.
Thanks Kerouac
That's helpful as explains EU haven't conceded a lot on this issue.
I assume very difficult for UK to argue that immigration was putting excessive pressure on public services to the Commission. Also no incentive for Commission to concede on this if UK voted to Remain.
More EU immigration is going to mean an ever increasing rise in working tax credits - putting even more pressure on the UK Govt deficit.
So maybe Osborne or his successor are going to have to bite the bullet and withdraw it - if immigration continues to rise.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:03 - Jun 7 with 1861 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 08:15 - Jun 7 by Nookiejack
Thanks Kerouac
That's helpful as explains EU haven't conceded a lot on this issue.
I assume very difficult for UK to argue that immigration was putting excessive pressure on public services to the Commission. Also no incentive for Commission to concede on this if UK voted to Remain.
More EU immigration is going to mean an ever increasing rise in working tax credits - putting even more pressure on the UK Govt deficit.
So maybe Osborne or his successor are going to have to bite the bullet and withdraw it - if immigration continues to rise.
"So maybe Osborne or his successor are going to have to bite the bullet and withdraw it - if immigration continues to rise."
This has consistently been the message from the Germans; "you have to treat EU citizens equally to UK citizens....if your benefits bill/tax credit bill is too high it is probably because your existing arrangements are too generous and this can be fixed at a national level"
Bear in mind that the UK has consistently taken more economic migrants from the EU than any other individual country, so an issue like 'Working tax credit' is amplified as a problem for us.
So to summarize; - If you want to cut EU migration?....you can't, it's out of your control. That was the deal. - If you want to make restrictions on benefits and tax credit for new arrivals from the EU?....you can't without the European Commission's approval. - The EU (the Germans at least) are in effect attempting to influence our policy on areas like working tax credits.....regardless of what we as an electorate have voted for (we voted for a party who introduced 'working tax credits' at some stage. We have never voted for unrestricted EU migration, at least not knowingly.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:03 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
"So maybe Osborne or his successor are going to have to bite the bullet and withdraw it - if immigration continues to rise."
This has consistently been the message from the Germans; "you have to treat EU citizens equally to UK citizens....if your benefits bill/tax credit bill is too high it is probably because your existing arrangements are too generous and this can be fixed at a national level"
Bear in mind that the UK has consistently taken more economic migrants from the EU than any other individual country, so an issue like 'Working tax credit' is amplified as a problem for us.
So to summarize; - If you want to cut EU migration?....you can't, it's out of your control. That was the deal. - If you want to make restrictions on benefits and tax credit for new arrivals from the EU?....you can't without the European Commission's approval. - The EU (the Germans at least) are in effect attempting to influence our policy on areas like working tax credits.....regardless of what we as an electorate have voted for (we voted for a party who introduced 'working tax credits' at some stage. We have never voted for unrestricted EU migration, at least not knowingly.
The vote is going to be close Kerouac
Maybe comes down
A. Peoples anger that they have never been consulted on uncontrolled immigration - it has just been done insidiously. (If politicians had argued for it and won these arguments people maybe would be feeling different about it now).
Verses
B. Peoples fear of the unknown of country standing alone.
If people do choose option B - they are de facto voting for a United States of Europe - as this again will be insidiously introduced. (This may not be a bad thing (I assume can then abolish all the remaining Royal families of Europe) but you wish politicians would come clean on this and argue their case for it.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:46 - Jun 7 with 1836 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:21 - Jun 7 by Nookiejack
The vote is going to be close Kerouac
Maybe comes down
A. Peoples anger that they have never been consulted on uncontrolled immigration - it has just been done insidiously. (If politicians had argued for it and won these arguments people maybe would be feeling different about it now).
Verses
B. Peoples fear of the unknown of country standing alone.
If people do choose option B - they are de facto voting for a United States of Europe - as this again will be insidiously introduced. (This may not be a bad thing (I assume can then abolish all the remaining Royal families of Europe) but you wish politicians would come clean on this and argue their case for it.
I agree with your analysis Nook.
I was once in favour of pooling some power with the rest of Europe. It is the way that the elites of Europe have gone about it that has turned me against.
A United States of Europe might be able to work well. Politicians have to present the case to the public and win the arguments....not railroad people, blithely lying every other sentence, treating citizens like particularly stupid children.
If the politicians of Europe cannot win the argument for a United States of Europe, to go ahead anyway (insidiously as you rightly put it) is storing up big, big problems.
So the remain campaign is now saying if the Leave campaigns win the result will be voided since it's not in the best interests of the country.This was repeated and endorsed by Stephen Kinnock.
It goes to show how un democratic it all really is.
So why are we having a vote If one of the two results possible is not going to happen if it wins?
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 10:58]
OUT AFLI SUCK IT UP REMOANER LOSERS
🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧
Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:42 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
Any floating voters that remain, I would recommend catching the Andrew Neil Interviews on BBC iplayer.
I've got the 1st on now and he's making minced meat out of Hilary Benn (and I'm sure he'll make minced meat out of all the poor sods on both sides of the campaign). He is very good and comprehensive. Watch and make your own minds up. Don't vote either way because of peer pressure or because of the personalities involved. Inform yourselves.
Don't be silly, he didn't lay a glove on Benn
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:21 - Jun 7 with 1801 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:51 - Jun 7 by pikeypaul
So the remain campaign is now saying if the Leave campaigns win the result will be voided since it's not in the best interests of the country.This was repeated and endorsed by Stephen Kinnock.
It goes to show how un democratic it all really is.
So why are we having a vote If one of the two results possible is not going to happen if it wins?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:03 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
"So maybe Osborne or his successor are going to have to bite the bullet and withdraw it - if immigration continues to rise."
This has consistently been the message from the Germans; "you have to treat EU citizens equally to UK citizens....if your benefits bill/tax credit bill is too high it is probably because your existing arrangements are too generous and this can be fixed at a national level"
Bear in mind that the UK has consistently taken more economic migrants from the EU than any other individual country, so an issue like 'Working tax credit' is amplified as a problem for us.
So to summarize; - If you want to cut EU migration?....you can't, it's out of your control. That was the deal. - If you want to make restrictions on benefits and tax credit for new arrivals from the EU?....you can't without the European Commission's approval. - The EU (the Germans at least) are in effect attempting to influence our policy on areas like working tax credits.....regardless of what we as an electorate have voted for (we voted for a party who introduced 'working tax credits' at some stage. We have never voted for unrestricted EU migration, at least not knowingly.
"Bear in mind that the UK has consistently taken more economic migrants from the EU than any other individual country, so an issue like 'Working tax credit' is amplified as a problem for us. "
To clarify, Germany now takes in marginally more migrants from other EU countries than us....Germany's in flows DOUBLED between 2007 and 2013. Why? The Euro Crisis and the resulting youth unemployment in southern Europe....created by?
Another reason that Germany is not too worried about this very recent phenomenon is that the German birth rate is so low....they need MORE immigration.
Not so long ago projections, based on the average migration flows and birth rates over a long period of time, predicted that the UK would overtake Germany in terms of population around about 2030.
Anyway, even if it were true that he couldn't pin Benn down, are you suggesting that Benn not being able to give a straight answer to a straight question is something to be lauded?
You see, this is the nub of it. The Labour Party are just pretending when they make out that; - "we got immigration wrong and apologise" - "immigration is a serious concern of the electorate and to raise the issue doesn't make you a racist or a bigot". - "we are on the side of the working man/woman and want their wages to increase and more jobs to be available"......they are happy with low wage immigrants coming into our labour market, which provides the working class with a lot more competition in terms of getting employed and helps suppress wages.
If you believe that hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming in every year is good for the economy and enhances the life of the average prole, argue the case....as Nick Clegg is brave enough to do. Don't lie to people at election time an then speak the truth out of the side of your mouth to political journalists. Slimy kunts.
So when he had to keep questioning Benn about controlling immigration within the EU to then get an answer that uncontrolled immigration within the EU was part of the deal, he didn't pin him down?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:36 - Jun 7 by blueytheblue
So when he had to keep questioning Benn about controlling immigration within the EU to then get an answer that uncontrolled immigration within the EU was part of the deal, he didn't pin him down?
No, he didn't pin him down. Those asking the questions will always have the upper hand, it's the same for every interview.
-1
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:23 - Jun 7 with 1687 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:36 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
It's really not for me to correct you or any other poster Nook.
I'll just state what I understand the deal on tax credits to be.....actually, no I won't, I'll just copy and paste how the deal has been reported. It's quicker (apologies to all offended intellectuals).....
MIGRATION AND BENEFITS
Pledge
"We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015
What he got
Draft text: This was Cameron's trophy achievement. It consists of a mechanism to “limit the access of union workers newly entering its labour market to in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment” if the UK, or any other member state, can show that EU migrants are “putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of its public services”.
No details are provided on what “excessive pressure” means, but a note on the mechanism says it will be tabled on the understanding that "it can and will be used" by the UK and the UK will do so "in full expectation of obtaining approval". However the control of the brake appears to remain firmly in the hands of the Commission who must be "notified" by any member state that they believe they are eligible to use it.
The text also adds an important caveat that the “limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion” to be followed by “gradually increasing access to such benefits” the longer that an EU worker stays in the host member state’s labour market.
Final deal:
All of the above, including a declaration that the four-year brake will be available to Britain for “a period of 7 years”. This is a ‘win’ for Cameron, although he had reportedly demanded up to 13 years availability.
On the negative side, Mr Cameron’s negotiators were unable to remove the “tapering mechanism” which will see EU migrants start to receive benefits when they start to contribute to the system — probably after their first year of work.
Critics will point out that deal only fully denies in-work benefits for one year, not four. There is also no mention of the benefits changes being protected by treaty change, which some critics have warned could leave them vulnerable to challenge in the European Courts.
Cameron has admitted subsequently that this deal will not put off immigrants from the EU...that is, if we could even manage to persuade the European Commission that EU migration is "putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of our public services". Do remember that Commissioners are appointed by member states and some of those states benefit economically from the money being sent home by their migrant workers currently. e.g. Poland.
Sound a bit like Donald Trump at the end there.
Upthecity!
0
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:00 - Jun 7 with 1672 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:51 - Jun 7 by pikeypaul
So the remain campaign is now saying if the Leave campaigns win the result will be voided since it's not in the best interests of the country.This was repeated and endorsed by Stephen Kinnock.
It goes to show how un democratic it all really is.
So why are we having a vote If one of the two results possible is not going to happen if it wins?
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 10:58]
That won't happen. While the referendum result doesn't bind parliament legally, there would quite rightly be absolute uproar if parliament tried a trick like that.
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