| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:03 - May 6 with 603 views | huelinsaint |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 08:50 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
Okay you'll dismiss the views of the former leader of the WHO because of something he said on newsnight 3 years ago. You lot would rather quote opinion pieces in far left newspapers from journalists with heroin addictions than listen to a medical professor. Sums it up really. |
nt [Post edited 6 May 2020 9:08]
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:06 - May 6 with 592 views | huelinsaint |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 08:50 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
Okay you'll dismiss the views of the former leader of the WHO because of something he said on newsnight 3 years ago. You lot would rather quote opinion pieces in far left newspapers from journalists with heroin addictions than listen to a medical professor. Sums it up really. |
He was not leader of the WHO, he headed up a cancer program there,he is an advocate of NHS privatisation so i wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him.Wasn't he one of the doctors that said that Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi would only live 3 months? | | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:24 - May 6 with 562 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:06 - May 6 by huelinsaint |
He was not leader of the WHO, he headed up a cancer program there,he is an advocate of NHS privatisation so i wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him.Wasn't he one of the doctors that said that Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi would only live 3 months? |
what has a view of NHS privatisation got to do with what he's been saying about the coronavirus? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:29 - May 6 with 554 views | huelinsaint |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:24 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
what has a view of NHS privatisation got to do with what he's been saying about the coronavirus? |
In my mind anyone who wants to privatise a great National Health Service is not to be trusted | | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:36 - May 6 with 546 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:29 - May 6 by huelinsaint |
In my mind anyone who wants to privatise a great National Health Service is not to be trusted |
So nothing more than your own prejudices then. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:04 - May 6 with 520 views | huelinsaint |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 09:36 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
So nothing more than your own prejudices then. |
No,you have to stop and think for a minute,why would anyone want to privatise the NHS? It's not going to be for altruistic reasons is it? | | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:47 - May 6 with 508 views | Bison |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:04 - May 6 by huelinsaint |
No,you have to stop and think for a minute,why would anyone want to privatise the NHS? It's not going to be for altruistic reasons is it? |
Perhaps he envisaged a system like Germany's which seems to be far superior to ours. |  |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:51 - May 6 with 504 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:04 - May 6 by huelinsaint |
No,you have to stop and think for a minute,why would anyone want to privatise the NHS? It's not going to be for altruistic reasons is it? |
Makes me laugh how everyone is banging on about why aren't we more like Germany, last time i checked their healthcare is dual public-private system. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:53 - May 6 with 502 views | Sadoldgit |
So Prof. Ferguson has resigned as a government adviser after to failing to take his own advice. Fair play. So can we expect Boris Johnson to do the same after boasting about shaking hands with those infected with the virus? The honourable thing to do, surely? 😉 |  | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 12:12 - May 6 with 492 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 11:51 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
Makes me laugh how everyone is banging on about why aren't we more like Germany, last time i checked their healthcare is dual public-private system. |
I thought we were all complaining about the hated Tories? In which case, the comparison is with the German government, no? Not it's health care system. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 12:23 - May 6 with 483 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 12:12 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
I thought we were all complaining about the hated Tories? In which case, the comparison is with the German government, no? Not it's health care system. |
If you very slowly read Huelins post, he asked a question as to why would anyone want to privatise the NHS. They stop and think for a minute. Haven't you read how much better Germany are doing than us, then stop and think again about how their health system works. The two are linked, possibly "Ian" | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 13:18 - May 6 with 463 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 12:23 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
If you very slowly read Huelins post, he asked a question as to why would anyone want to privatise the NHS. They stop and think for a minute. Haven't you read how much better Germany are doing than us, then stop and think again about how their health system works. The two are linked, possibly "Ian" |
If you very slowly read your own post, it says that it makes you laugh how everyone is banging on about why aren't we more like Germany. Any 'banging on' that's going on by us Tory-haters must surely be in comparison to the effectiveness of the German government, no? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:02 - May 6 with 433 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 13:18 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
If you very slowly read your own post, it says that it makes you laugh how everyone is banging on about why aren't we more like Germany. Any 'banging on' that's going on by us Tory-haters must surely be in comparison to the effectiveness of the German government, no? |
The German government have a part privately owned NHS, maybe our government would be more effective if it did privatise ours, perhaps? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:12 - May 6 with 425 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:02 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
The German government have a part privately owned NHS, maybe our government would be more effective if it did privatise ours, perhaps? |
Is that your view?
You haven't set that out on here before. Are you saying the problems in this country are down to the NHS itself rather than errors made by politicians or epidemiologists?
It's a theory, certainly. Not one I've seen many people put forward. Most people think the NHS has been performing heroically despite the very difficult hand that it's been dealt.
It would make a change to see you put forward a substantive argument. Maybe give it a go when you've mugged up a bit more on the structural differences between the UK and German Health systems and how those have lead to different Covid outcomes in the two different countries. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:18 - May 6 with 424 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:12 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
Is that your view?
You haven't set that out on here before. Are you saying the problems in this country are down to the NHS itself rather than errors made by politicians or epidemiologists?
It's a theory, certainly. Not one I've seen many people put forward. Most people think the NHS has been performing heroically despite the very difficult hand that it's been dealt.
It would make a change to see you put forward a substantive argument. Maybe give it a go when you've mugged up a bit more on the structural differences between the UK and German Health systems and how those have lead to different Covid outcomes in the two different countries. |
I didnt say it was my view. But the anti Tory brigade on here seem adamant we should be doing better but also adamant the NHS shouldn't be sold. They keep on about how they wish we were like Germany, but Germany has a partly privatised NHS, so if they want us to be more like Germany maybe we should do what they do, yes? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:47 - May 6 with 408 views | Sadoldgit |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:18 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
I didnt say it was my view. But the anti Tory brigade on here seem adamant we should be doing better but also adamant the NHS shouldn't be sold. They keep on about how they wish we were like Germany, but Germany has a partly privatised NHS, so if they want us to be more like Germany maybe we should do what they do, yes? |
Given that we had the luxury of a two week plus heads up, any reasonable person would expect us to be sprinting out of the blocks. Instead the response couldn’t have been more laid back if the cabinet had consisted of a bunch of Keith Richards clones. So much so that the PM, his advisor and cabinet members managed to demonstrate how to catch the virus rather than how to avoid it. Now these same people are telling us that their policy has been a success. If that doesn’t worry you, you are clearly too far gone for saving. When the history of this pandemic is written, don’t read it. It will play havoc with your whole gullible belief system. | | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:49 - May 6 with 406 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:18 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
I didnt say it was my view. But the anti Tory brigade on here seem adamant we should be doing better but also adamant the NHS shouldn't be sold. They keep on about how they wish we were like Germany, but Germany has a partly privatised NHS, so if they want us to be more like Germany maybe we should do what they do, yes? |
I didn't think it was your view. I thought it was just a bit of your usual nonsense.
As you are well aware, the argument from the 'anti Tory brigade' is that bad decisions have been made by either the government or maybe they have received really bad advice from others. Nobody in the 'anti Tory brigade' is arguing that our problems are down to the fact that we have a fully public national health service. If you want to make that argument, make it.
And there is nothing at all inconsistent in thinking that something has gone wrong in this country's handling of Covid, that things have gone much better in Germany, AND that the NHS should not be privatised. I would say that this is the view of most people in this country. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:58 - May 6 with 402 views | Bison |
I think they need to publish the scientific advice that the Cambridge modelling tool came up with as that seems to be the driving force behind the steps the government are taking. They used it to predict what would happen in Sweden given what they are doing. It predicted something like 40,000 deaths to now when it's actually 2,500 out by a factor of 15. What else might it of got wrong ?
The government have made mistakes for sure but be interesting to see how they came to some of these decisions , did they overly let this guide them ? If so they need to find another model to use. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:04 - May 6 with 398 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:49 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
I didn't think it was your view. I thought it was just a bit of your usual nonsense.
As you are well aware, the argument from the 'anti Tory brigade' is that bad decisions have been made by either the government or maybe they have received really bad advice from others. Nobody in the 'anti Tory brigade' is arguing that our problems are down to the fact that we have a fully public national health service. If you want to make that argument, make it.
And there is nothing at all inconsistent in thinking that something has gone wrong in this country's handling of Covid, that things have gone much better in Germany, AND that the NHS should not be privatised. I would say that this is the view of most people in this country. |
Dont you think it'd a valid question?
Our government has been much less efficient that the German Government with healthcare issues. The tory haters want us to be more like the Germans, The German government have privatised their healthcare service, maybe we should? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:11 - May 6 with 395 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:47 - May 6 by Sadoldgit |
Given that we had the luxury of a two week plus heads up, any reasonable person would expect us to be sprinting out of the blocks. Instead the response couldn’t have been more laid back if the cabinet had consisted of a bunch of Keith Richards clones. So much so that the PM, his advisor and cabinet members managed to demonstrate how to catch the virus rather than how to avoid it. Now these same people are telling us that their policy has been a success. If that doesn’t worry you, you are clearly too far gone for saving. When the history of this pandemic is written, don’t read it. It will play havoc with your whole gullible belief system. |
Really? If the government did nothing then the deaths were estimated to be 500k, as it is we sit around 30k, so a million miles away from the picture you like to paint. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:20 - May 6 with 392 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:04 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
Dont you think it'd a valid question?
Our government has been much less efficient that the German Government with healthcare issues. The tory haters want us to be more like the Germans, The German government have privatised their healthcare service, maybe we should? |
If you think the Covid problems in this country are down to us having a public health service, make the case. I'm not stopping you.
In all seriousness, I would love to know why the Germans have (apparently) done so much better than us. I have been asking that question for weeks. And if there's a case (a) that the standard of their clinical care is much better than ours and (b) that that better standard is down to the structure of their health service, then I'm all ears. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:29 - May 6 with 386 views | this_charming_man |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:20 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
If you think the Covid problems in this country are down to us having a public health service, make the case. I'm not stopping you.
In all seriousness, I would love to know why the Germans have (apparently) done so much better than us. I have been asking that question for weeks. And if there's a case (a) that the standard of their clinical care is much better than ours and (b) that that better standard is down to the structure of their health service, then I'm all ears. |
The certainly were able to provide a lot more tests more quickly, do you think they might be due to the capabilities of their health service rather than their minister for health? | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:30 - May 6 with 384 views | kernow |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 14:58 - May 6 by Bison |
I think they need to publish the scientific advice that the Cambridge modelling tool came up with as that seems to be the driving force behind the steps the government are taking. They used it to predict what would happen in Sweden given what they are doing. It predicted something like 40,000 deaths to now when it's actually 2,500 out by a factor of 15. What else might it of got wrong ?
The government have made mistakes for sure but be interesting to see how they came to some of these decisions , did they overly let this guide them ? If so they need to find another model to use. |
Agree that the scientific advice needs to be published for transparency, scrutiny and questioning. | | | |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:51 - May 6 with 364 views | DorsetIan |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:29 - May 6 by this_charming_man |
The certainly were able to provide a lot more tests more quickly, do you think they might be due to the capabilities of their health service rather than their minister for health? |
This...
"How was Germany able to ramp up testing so quickly?
Health Secretary Matt Hancock has suggested the strength of the German pharmaceutical and biotech industries was a big factor.
Defending the UK's limited testing, compared with Germany, he said: "We have the best scientific labs in the world but we did not have the scale.
"My German counterpart, for instance, could call upon 100 testing labs ready and waiting when the crisis struck, thanks in large part to Roche, one of the biggest diagnostic companies in the world."
But industrial strength may not be the main reason behind Germany's success.
Many of the private laboratories being used for testing in Germany are associated with universities and other medical facilities rather than with big business (and Roche is actually a Swiss company).
More significant may be higher health spending:
Germany spent €4,271 (£3,744) per person on healthcare (11.1% of gross domestic product - the value of goods and services produced in the country) in 2016
The UK spent €3,566 per person on healthcare (9.7% of GDP) in 2016
The EU average is 9.9% of GDP
Germany's federal political system appears to be a big factor too.
It devolves power over large areas of health policy - including testing - away from central government to state level and below.
And that has created more autonomy and flexibility, allowing private labs to start testing far more quickly than in the UK.
A coronavirus testing centre in Cologne's Rautenstrauch Joest museum
By contrast, government agencies in the UK, such as Public Health England, were initially advising mass testing at an early stage would be extremely difficult to achieve.
The British government also took some time to decide a rapid increase in testing should become a policy priority. It was only on 2 April that a plan to ramp up testing significantly was announced."
One of the above factors seems related to the more devolved health system in Germany - suggesting that perhaps our, more centralised NHS, hindered flexibility and speed of action. But that is not necessary a public/private thing. Historically our public NHS has been more regionalised, the last bit of centralisation coming in 2012. It also doesn't explain why the ramping up of testing didn't really begin until 2 April.
Chap from Bristol Uni on Newsnight the other day was also saying that because we no longer have a regional NHS infrastructure, contact tracing will be much harder to roll out. | |
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| UK now Europes highest death toll on 16:11 - May 6 with 356 views | Bison |
| UK now Europes highest death toll on 15:51 - May 6 by DorsetIan |
This...
"How was Germany able to ramp up testing so quickly?
Health Secretary Matt Hancock has suggested the strength of the German pharmaceutical and biotech industries was a big factor.
Defending the UK's limited testing, compared with Germany, he said: "We have the best scientific labs in the world but we did not have the scale.
"My German counterpart, for instance, could call upon 100 testing labs ready and waiting when the crisis struck, thanks in large part to Roche, one of the biggest diagnostic companies in the world."
But industrial strength may not be the main reason behind Germany's success.
Many of the private laboratories being used for testing in Germany are associated with universities and other medical facilities rather than with big business (and Roche is actually a Swiss company).
More significant may be higher health spending:
Germany spent €4,271 (£3,744) per person on healthcare (11.1% of gross domestic product - the value of goods and services produced in the country) in 2016
The UK spent €3,566 per person on healthcare (9.7% of GDP) in 2016
The EU average is 9.9% of GDP
Germany's federal political system appears to be a big factor too.
It devolves power over large areas of health policy - including testing - away from central government to state level and below.
And that has created more autonomy and flexibility, allowing private labs to start testing far more quickly than in the UK.
A coronavirus testing centre in Cologne's Rautenstrauch Joest museum
By contrast, government agencies in the UK, such as Public Health England, were initially advising mass testing at an early stage would be extremely difficult to achieve.
The British government also took some time to decide a rapid increase in testing should become a policy priority. It was only on 2 April that a plan to ramp up testing significantly was announced."
One of the above factors seems related to the more devolved health system in Germany - suggesting that perhaps our, more centralised NHS, hindered flexibility and speed of action. But that is not necessary a public/private thing. Historically our public NHS has been more regionalised, the last bit of centralisation coming in 2012. It also doesn't explain why the ramping up of testing didn't really begin until 2 April.
Chap from Bristol Uni on Newsnight the other day was also saying that because we no longer have a regional NHS infrastructure, contact tracing will be much harder to roll out. |
This -
Germany spent €4,271 (£3,744) per person on healthcare
It's misleading look at the states they spend aroun 10,000 per person.
Germany also has compulsory insurance you have to pay , the UK doesn't it's totally funded by the government. So per head yes it's more but that is only partly funded by the state. | |
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