| Harrogate (h) Match Thread 16:08 - Dec 1 with 33766 views | HullDale |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 15:40 - Dec 4 with 2379 views | Dalenet |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 15:10 - Dec 4 by 442Dale |
I know this has come up before, on your last point why can’t you see us surviving? |
You are an intelligent man 442 but you know the arguments here. Your previous postings suggest you don't agree. Here are the key points for starters:
Our gates would fall further - barely 2000 home fans yesterday - top 7 teams in the National League have 5000+ gates. Revenue would plummet
Our League and TV revenues of more than ÂŁ1.5m would be lost
We are a country mile from breaking even now - how would the loss of half our revenue help?
Ticket prices would need to fall by 30% to match the expectation of that League
The Board is trying to raise share capital now because we need it to survive. And the Board members have had to but the MH shares back too. They must be tearing their hair out
I know that you and ATP and others think we would be fine. But the Rochdale public has never really got behind its teams of any code. Dale has a few hundred attendees that travel from outside the borough to watch us. It cost me over ÂŁ300 to get to the game yesterday because I decided to stay a couple of days. It normally costs me ÂŁ100 to travel and as a season ticket holder I get to most games. But I couldn't justify spending thousands each season to watch a non league club and I suspect hundreds would share the same view. It wouldn't be so bad if I thought my commitment was being matched by those on the pitch.
Rabbits need to be pulled from hats now. |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:02 - Dec 4 with 2277 views | 100notout |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 15:40 - Dec 4 by Dalenet |
You are an intelligent man 442 but you know the arguments here. Your previous postings suggest you don't agree. Here are the key points for starters:
Our gates would fall further - barely 2000 home fans yesterday - top 7 teams in the National League have 5000+ gates. Revenue would plummet
Our League and TV revenues of more than ÂŁ1.5m would be lost
We are a country mile from breaking even now - how would the loss of half our revenue help?
Ticket prices would need to fall by 30% to match the expectation of that League
The Board is trying to raise share capital now because we need it to survive. And the Board members have had to but the MH shares back too. They must be tearing their hair out
I know that you and ATP and others think we would be fine. But the Rochdale public has never really got behind its teams of any code. Dale has a few hundred attendees that travel from outside the borough to watch us. It cost me over ÂŁ300 to get to the game yesterday because I decided to stay a couple of days. It normally costs me ÂŁ100 to travel and as a season ticket holder I get to most games. But I couldn't justify spending thousands each season to watch a non league club and I suspect hundreds would share the same view. It wouldn't be so bad if I thought my commitment was being matched by those on the pitch.
Rabbits need to be pulled from hats now. |
Great post and its ok saying well we'll just cut our cloth accordingly.
Christ we've not got a lot of cloth as it is and you can only cut it so much - at this rate the players will be wearing mankinis! | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:06 - Dec 4 with 2264 views | James1980 |
There would be major changes, but I don't think we would be consigned to the annals of history. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:37 - Dec 4 with 2177 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:02 - Dec 4 by 100notout |
Great post and its ok saying well we'll just cut our cloth accordingly.
Christ we've not got a lot of cloth as it is and you can only cut it so much - at this rate the players will be wearing mankinis! |
That’s exactly it though. If we plummet through non-league because our wage bill drops and drops, that’s still a football club surviving.
It was mentioned earlier that we may never return or take ages to ever do so, that’s still not going bust. If fans in their hundreds choose not to attend anymore, that’s their choice but it doesn’t mean that someone says “right that’s if, turn off the lights”. If the financial situation is that bad right now and the club’s very future is in doubt, let’s hear it said explicitly.
Of course it would be difficult and of course the club may end up changing for forever, but there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely cease to exist if we are relegated. |  |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:45 - Dec 4 with 2154 views | 49thseason |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:06 - Dec 4 by James1980 |
There would be major changes, but I don't think we would be consigned to the annals of history. |
Changes like what James?
Dozens of redundancies. a part time playing staff, the end of the academy, These are the realities the Directors would face, not to mention the massive number of shares they have just bought at ÂŁ2.35 becoming virtually worthless.
I too would be interested to know exactly how those who think the Club could continue imagine it to be possible to survive on little except gate money and bar takings. Look at the debts hanging over the likes of Notts County , or the loans being made to clubs like Stockport, Accrington, etc. One deep recession and lower league football could be virtually wiped out. |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:46 - Dec 4 with 2143 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:45 - Dec 4 by 49thseason |
Changes like what James?
Dozens of redundancies. a part time playing staff, the end of the academy, These are the realities the Directors would face, not to mention the massive number of shares they have just bought at ÂŁ2.35 becoming virtually worthless.
I too would be interested to know exactly how those who think the Club could continue imagine it to be possible to survive on little except gate money and bar takings. Look at the debts hanging over the likes of Notts County , or the loans being made to clubs like Stockport, Accrington, etc. One deep recession and lower league football could be virtually wiped out. |
How do all clubs at various non-league levels survive? | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:06 - Dec 4 with 2071 views | 100notout |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:46 - Dec 4 by 442Dale |
How do all clubs at various non-league levels survive? |
The majority don't have a large fixed overhead cost base to fund.
"there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely cease to exist if we are relegated" and equally, there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely continue to exist if we are relegated.
I'm not saying we will fold but it will be very very difficult and possibly more likely than not - not immediately but it would be a very slippery slope | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:10 - Dec 4 with 2059 views | judd |
Oldham & Scunny, both relegated from the EFL last season are the current bottom two clubs in the Conference or whatever its called nowadays. |  |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:10 - Dec 4 with 2056 views | D_Alien |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:45 - Dec 4 by 49thseason |
Changes like what James?
Dozens of redundancies. a part time playing staff, the end of the academy, These are the realities the Directors would face, not to mention the massive number of shares they have just bought at ÂŁ2.35 becoming virtually worthless.
I too would be interested to know exactly how those who think the Club could continue imagine it to be possible to survive on little except gate money and bar takings. Look at the debts hanging over the likes of Notts County , or the loans being made to clubs like Stockport, Accrington, etc. One deep recession and lower league football could be virtually wiped out. |
I know you're prone to hyperbole, but the argument that "lower league clubs could be virtually wiped out" is also a very different argument from the one under discussion, which is that somehow Dale would be uniquely ill-placed to survive in non-league
[Post edited 4 Dec 2022 17:35]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:16 - Dec 4 with 2029 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:06 - Dec 4 by 100notout |
The majority don't have a large fixed overhead cost base to fund.
"there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely cease to exist if we are relegated" and equally, there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely continue to exist if we are relegated.
I'm not saying we will fold but it will be very very difficult and possibly more likely than not - not immediately but it would be a very slippery slope |
Agree on all counts!
Therein lies the argument and what needs to be out in the open right now:
- what would the immediate threats and weaknesses be if the club were relegated?
- Is the current sale of shares imperative to the survival of the club and if so will there be a concerted campaign to impress this on the both the fan base and the wider football world?
- are the Trust in any way concerned about the future of the football club should on-field results worsen across time?
With the structures currently in place at the club, ones which so many have fought so well for over the last couple of years, there is no reason at all that every supporter shouldn’t be fully aware of exactly what a relegation or even years bouncing about in the lower reaches of League Two will mean.
Speculating here is just that. The evidence is everywhere that cities, towns and villages across the country manage to have clubs with teams that compete at various levels of the footballing pyramid. Not sure what a 4-1 home defeat does to change that. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:24 - Dec 4 with 2003 views | D_Alien |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:16 - Dec 4 by 442Dale |
Agree on all counts!
Therein lies the argument and what needs to be out in the open right now:
- what would the immediate threats and weaknesses be if the club were relegated?
- Is the current sale of shares imperative to the survival of the club and if so will there be a concerted campaign to impress this on the both the fan base and the wider football world?
- are the Trust in any way concerned about the future of the football club should on-field results worsen across time?
With the structures currently in place at the club, ones which so many have fought so well for over the last couple of years, there is no reason at all that every supporter shouldn’t be fully aware of exactly what a relegation or even years bouncing about in the lower reaches of League Two will mean.
Speculating here is just that. The evidence is everywhere that cities, towns and villages across the country manage to have clubs with teams that compete at various levels of the footballing pyramid. Not sure what a 4-1 home defeat does to change that. |
Plus, there's still plenty of scope for developing the club, including the owned ground facilities as a community asset, which is already happening to some extent
There was an argument made in another thread about the ground being re-mortgaged; that route should be avoided, not at all costs obviously, but since it means the shareholders remain in control of what happens there | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:01 - Dec 4 with 1872 views | James1980 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:45 - Dec 4 by 49thseason |
Changes like what James?
Dozens of redundancies. a part time playing staff, the end of the academy, These are the realities the Directors would face, not to mention the massive number of shares they have just bought at ÂŁ2.35 becoming virtually worthless.
I too would be interested to know exactly how those who think the Club could continue imagine it to be possible to survive on little except gate money and bar takings. Look at the debts hanging over the likes of Notts County , or the loans being made to clubs like Stockport, Accrington, etc. One deep recession and lower league football could be virtually wiped out. |
Perhaps I am over optimistic but I don't believe Rochdale AFC will join
Accrington, Loughborough, Middlesbrough Ironopolis, New Brighton
New Brighton Tower and Thames and become defunct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_English_Football_League_clubs.
Any way we are not down yet are we. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:11 - Dec 4 with 1853 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 15:10 - Dec 4 by 442Dale |
I know this has come up before, on your last point why can’t you see us surviving? |
I can't see us surviving because half the two thousand regulars we have now will stop coming for various reasons. We won't be able to compete financially with the majority of the National League clubs. The majority of them already get bigger home crowds than us.
We'll be signing the dregs left over that others wouldn't employ and full time football would become unsustainable. Look where Oldham are now with crowds we can only dream about. It's a miracle we have survived the last 50 odd years considering the apathy for sport in the town.
I could think of a few other reasons but I'm depressed enough without wanting to depress everyone else. |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:14 - Dec 4 with 1835 views | 100notout |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:24 - Dec 4 by D_Alien |
Plus, there's still plenty of scope for developing the club, including the owned ground facilities as a community asset, which is already happening to some extent
There was an argument made in another thread about the ground being re-mortgaged; that route should be avoided, not at all costs obviously, but since it means the shareholders remain in control of what happens there |
IF we get relegated (and I know this is stating the bleeding obvious!!!) minimising what will be a massive loss of income will be key.
Like me, many of us will turn up week in week out whatever league we are in, but what % of our current total income is made up of gate receipts? A look in the accounts will tell you - I don't know what it is but I would imagine its less than half - that's the problem facing us.
What gives me a degree of confidence that we will survive is that we have a board of directors that are true fans (not like that idiot who claimed he was) that are 100% committed to the survival of this club and have the skill sets between them to be able to deliver. They don't have a big pot of personal cash to throw at it and no one would expect them to do that but make no mistake, now that Horton Mouse is out of the way they will already be planning to maximise income generating opportunities for this season, next season and beyond - the reinstatement of Goldbond being a good example. Lets hope they can do it, whatever league we're in. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:41 - Dec 4 with 1753 views | judd |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:14 - Dec 4 by 100notout |
IF we get relegated (and I know this is stating the bleeding obvious!!!) minimising what will be a massive loss of income will be key.
Like me, many of us will turn up week in week out whatever league we are in, but what % of our current total income is made up of gate receipts? A look in the accounts will tell you - I don't know what it is but I would imagine its less than half - that's the problem facing us.
What gives me a degree of confidence that we will survive is that we have a board of directors that are true fans (not like that idiot who claimed he was) that are 100% committed to the survival of this club and have the skill sets between them to be able to deliver. They don't have a big pot of personal cash to throw at it and no one would expect them to do that but make no mistake, now that Horton Mouse is out of the way they will already be planning to maximise income generating opportunities for this season, next season and beyond - the reinstatement of Goldbond being a good example. Lets hope they can do it, whatever league we're in. |
From memory gate receipts typically about 16-18% of income. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:41 - Dec 4 with 1750 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:37 - Dec 4 by 442Dale |
That’s exactly it though. If we plummet through non-league because our wage bill drops and drops, that’s still a football club surviving.
It was mentioned earlier that we may never return or take ages to ever do so, that’s still not going bust. If fans in their hundreds choose not to attend anymore, that’s their choice but it doesn’t mean that someone says “right that’s if, turn off the lights”. If the financial situation is that bad right now and the club’s very future is in doubt, let’s hear it said explicitly.
Of course it would be difficult and of course the club may end up changing for forever, but there is no actual evidence to support an argument that the club will definitely cease to exist if we are relegated. |
What do you think home attendances would be in the 8th or 9th tier? Would they sustain a club with the ambition of getting back in the FL, when the town as a whole doesn't give a damn while it does have FL status. Existing in name only and playing pub teams would be no existence at all.
Add to all that, the club threw away probably ÂŁ50,000 a year by stopping all cash turnstiles. Not everyone is online and not everyone can be bothered to stand in a queue for ages waiting to get tickets. It's backward thinking. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 18:45]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:46 - Dec 4 with 1727 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:41 - Dec 4 by RooleyMoorBlue |
What do you think home attendances would be in the 8th or 9th tier? Would they sustain a club with the ambition of getting back in the FL, when the town as a whole doesn't give a damn while it does have FL status. Existing in name only and playing pub teams would be no existence at all.
Add to all that, the club threw away probably ÂŁ50,000 a year by stopping all cash turnstiles. Not everyone is online and not everyone can be bothered to stand in a queue for ages waiting to get tickets. It's backward thinking. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 18:45]
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If that ever happened, and there’s no reason to say it will, it would be down to someone’s own choice and opinion.
We’ve consistently been a club with lower crowds in whatever division we’ve been in. It didn’t stop us competing in League One and winning promotion in League Two. Those same crowds were half the size they are now forty years ago as well, yet still we battled on. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:47 - Dec 4 with 1726 views | judd |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:41 - Dec 4 by RooleyMoorBlue |
What do you think home attendances would be in the 8th or 9th tier? Would they sustain a club with the ambition of getting back in the FL, when the town as a whole doesn't give a damn while it does have FL status. Existing in name only and playing pub teams would be no existence at all.
Add to all that, the club threw away probably ÂŁ50,000 a year by stopping all cash turnstiles. Not everyone is online and not everyone can be bothered to stand in a queue for ages waiting to get tickets. It's backward thinking. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 18:45]
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Pensioner in my local got in for free using his bus pass a few weeks ago | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:48 - Dec 4 with 1716 views | 442Dale |
The cash turnstile point is still valid. It’s crazy that the club have not even attempted to trial it after feedback from supporters. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:20 - Dec 4 with 1640 views | NorthernDale |
I was seriously worried at the way the team surrendered yesterday and the lack of fight worries me, in a relegation fight. The board needs to seek and try to the find resources to fund some January signings to allow us to have the ability to alter the team and drop players, at the moment thanks to our summer recruitment policy, the team virtually picks itself. Jim indicated in his post match they am looking to get one or two in and possibly offload one or two. But like everything it is dependent on money and having the ability to offload players, including loan signings. What as happened to Slicker, is he still on loan or is he back at City? | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:57 - Dec 4 with 1578 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:47 - Dec 4 by judd |
Pensioner in my local got in for free using his bus pass a few weeks ago |
I got in twice using last season's card. When I realised what I'd done I spoke to a lady outside the turnstiles and told her it needs reporting. No idea whether it has been rectified.
Maybe try getting in by scanning a frozen meat and potato pie or anything with a barcode. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 20:00]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:59 - Dec 4 with 1575 views | TVOS1907 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:11 - Dec 4 by RooleyMoorBlue |
I can't see us surviving because half the two thousand regulars we have now will stop coming for various reasons. We won't be able to compete financially with the majority of the National League clubs. The majority of them already get bigger home crowds than us.
We'll be signing the dregs left over that others wouldn't employ and full time football would become unsustainable. Look where Oldham are now with crowds we can only dream about. It's a miracle we have survived the last 50 odd years considering the apathy for sport in the town.
I could think of a few other reasons but I'm depressed enough without wanting to depress everyone else. |
https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-national-league-2022-2023/1/
Seven clubs in the National League have a higher home average attendance than we do this season, so it's not even half of them. Scunthorpe's will soon drop below ours.
And all seven had higher average attendances than us when they were in the Football League. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:03 - Dec 4 with 1558 views | TVOS1907 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:41 - Dec 4 by RooleyMoorBlue |
What do you think home attendances would be in the 8th or 9th tier? Would they sustain a club with the ambition of getting back in the FL, when the town as a whole doesn't give a damn while it does have FL status. Existing in name only and playing pub teams would be no existence at all.
Add to all that, the club threw away probably ÂŁ50,000 a year by stopping all cash turnstiles. Not everyone is online and not everyone can be bothered to stand in a queue for ages waiting to get tickets. It's backward thinking. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 18:45]
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We lost 4-1 at home yesterday and are in considerable trouble, but we're a long way from the 8th or 9th tier (i.e. the Northern Premier League). | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:08 - Dec 4 with 1536 views | electricblue |
Thinking about the current financial situation at the club and the need for new faces during the January transfer is it possible that the board could be looking at using a % of future share sales a guarantee on a loan...... |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:14 - Dec 4 with 1521 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
Try again using home fan data only and I'll bet it's more than 7 clubs.
The point is the away following will drop considerably, especially if the likes of Wrexham, Notts. County and Chesterfield go up and Oldham go down. Our crowds have probably dropped by 40% in the last 10 years and that will happen again overnight with relegation.
We wouldn't be able to operate as a full time club for more than a couple of seasons in the National League unless we were instantly promoted. | | | |
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