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Amit’s put club up for sale! on 13:56 - Oct 12 by Northernr
Let's have a look at that attractive proposition, shall we?
The club, at the last set of accounts, loses £2m a month in its current state. You'd be on the hook for that as soon as you buy it. It's likely much less this season (well, we wanna hope it's much less this season or we're in breach of FFP), but still that's £24m a year as at the last set of accounts.
The training ground development is said to be £20m+ of which £7m+ was raised through the bond. So there's another £14m there which was more than likely not paid up front, will be done on finance and over time. You'd be picking up whatever is left there.
There is a historic FFP fine (£17m fine and £3m of EFL legal costs). They were paying that off in instalments over a ten year period, and the settlement was in 2018 so five years of that left = at the last set of accounts £10.2m.
We owe the EFL £6m for loans taken during the Covid lockdown.
At the last set of accounts we owed £2.1m in outstanding player transfer fees.
Our owners effectively write the debt off. They put money in to fund all of that, and then periodically they just convert the debt to equity. We're very fortunate they do, we'd be dead immediately without it. But as at the last set of accounts we owed £52m in shareholder loans. Like I say, they'll likely just convert that to equity in time (it's how Ruben has become the majority shareholder ahead of Fernandes, because he's picking up the cheque) but were they to sell the club at that point would they be expecting some/all of that back from whoever is buying it?
Anyway, conservative estimate, as at the last set of accounts, just to get the keys to the door would cost you £69.5m
That's before you even start with what you're buying.
The reason the club is so screwed FFP wise is because it has an antiquated, small stadium which generates no income, and apparently is very difficult to improve. Even if you could improve it with a new stand, hospitality, "digging down", revolving restaurant, how much does that all cost?
You're also inheriting a squad that needs significant improvement in every area, but to do so breaches the rules of the league because of the FFP situation. Your options would just be to completely ignore FFP, build the team you wanted, and get it promoted within 12 months (Wolves), but if you miss then you become Sheff Wed or Derby because that's what they did. Or you settle in for a seriously long rebuild under the rules, which given the state of the team now would almost certainly include a drop into League One (inconveniently just as the Championship gets a nice new double your money TV deal).
So £69m to get the keys to a millstone stadium you can't improve with the division's worst team you can't do anything with. But, yeh, you're right, we are in London.
It's what Jeff said above. If they could find anybody stupid enough to do it they'd have been off like a shot years ago. It's a money pit.
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:12 - Oct 12 by Northernr
... and want to spend £68m to inherit a stadium and a team you can't do anything with.
haven't you heard? people who 'care and can' come in six packs now, they're everywhere. literally bumped into two on the high street getting my lunch.
the 'passing the baton' metaphor is surprisingly apt, for in a relay race to pass the baton on you need someone willing to accept it, and if you don't pass the baton on you end up dropping it which means disqualification...
Can we not knock it?
0
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:18 - Oct 12 with 3244 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:17 - Oct 12 by Jeff
haven't you heard? people who 'care and can' come in six packs now, they're everywhere. literally bumped into two on the high street getting my lunch.
the 'passing the baton' metaphor is surprisingly apt, for in a relay race to pass the baton on you need someone willing to accept it, and if you don't pass the baton on you end up dropping it which means disqualification...
In this case the baton is an Acme bomb.
1
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:43 - Oct 12 with 3153 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:12 - Oct 12 by Northernr
... and want to spend £68m to inherit a stadium and a team you can't do anything with.
So we just need to find a mad keen QPR fan (with a fantastic strategic brain, preferably owning a huge betting company) with a spare quarter of billion?
We should all ask around.
1
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:51 - Oct 12 with 3116 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 13:56 - Oct 12 by Northernr
Let's have a look at that attractive proposition, shall we?
The club, at the last set of accounts, loses £2m a month in its current state. You'd be on the hook for that as soon as you buy it. It's likely much less this season (well, we wanna hope it's much less this season or we're in breach of FFP), but still that's £24m a year as at the last set of accounts.
The training ground development is said to be £20m+ of which £7m+ was raised through the bond. So there's another £14m there which was more than likely not paid up front, will be done on finance and over time. You'd be picking up whatever is left there.
There is a historic FFP fine (£17m fine and £3m of EFL legal costs). They were paying that off in instalments over a ten year period, and the settlement was in 2018 so five years of that left = at the last set of accounts £10.2m.
We owe the EFL £6m for loans taken during the Covid lockdown.
At the last set of accounts we owed £2.1m in outstanding player transfer fees.
Our owners effectively write the debt off. They put money in to fund all of that, and then periodically they just convert the debt to equity. We're very fortunate they do, we'd be dead immediately without it. But as at the last set of accounts we owed £52m in shareholder loans. Like I say, they'll likely just convert that to equity in time (it's how Ruben has become the majority shareholder ahead of Fernandes, because he's picking up the cheque) but were they to sell the club at that point would they be expecting some/all of that back from whoever is buying it?
Anyway, conservative estimate, as at the last set of accounts, just to get the keys to the door would cost you £69.5m
That's before you even start with what you're buying.
The reason the club is so screwed FFP wise is because it has an antiquated, small stadium which generates no income, and apparently is very difficult to improve. Even if you could improve it with a new stand, hospitality, "digging down", revolving restaurant, how much does that all cost?
You're also inheriting a squad that needs significant improvement in every area, but to do so breaches the rules of the league because of the FFP situation. Your options would just be to completely ignore FFP, build the team you wanted, and get it promoted within 12 months (Wolves), but if you miss then you become Sheff Wed or Derby because that's what they did. Or you settle in for a seriously long rebuild under the rules, which given the state of the team now would almost certainly include a drop into League One (inconveniently just as the Championship gets a nice new double your money TV deal).
So £69m to get the keys to a millstone stadium you can't improve with the division's worst team you can't do anything with. But, yeh, you're right, we are in London.
It's what Jeff said above. If they could find anybody stupid enough to do it they'd have been off like a shot years ago. It's a money pit.
This post has been edited by an administrator
You need to find a way to pin this post permanently onto Twitter Clive.
2
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:57 - Oct 12 with 3085 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 13:56 - Oct 12 by Northernr
Let's have a look at that attractive proposition, shall we?
The club, at the last set of accounts, loses £2m a month in its current state. You'd be on the hook for that as soon as you buy it. It's likely much less this season (well, we wanna hope it's much less this season or we're in breach of FFP), but still that's £24m a year as at the last set of accounts.
The training ground development is said to be £20m+ of which £7m+ was raised through the bond. So there's another £14m there which was more than likely not paid up front, will be done on finance and over time. You'd be picking up whatever is left there.
There is a historic FFP fine (£17m fine and £3m of EFL legal costs). They were paying that off in instalments over a ten year period, and the settlement was in 2018 so five years of that left = at the last set of accounts £10.2m.
We owe the EFL £6m for loans taken during the Covid lockdown.
At the last set of accounts we owed £2.1m in outstanding player transfer fees.
Our owners effectively write the debt off. They put money in to fund all of that, and then periodically they just convert the debt to equity. We're very fortunate they do, we'd be dead immediately without it. But as at the last set of accounts we owed £52m in shareholder loans. Like I say, they'll likely just convert that to equity in time (it's how Ruben has become the majority shareholder ahead of Fernandes, because he's picking up the cheque) but were they to sell the club at that point would they be expecting some/all of that back from whoever is buying it?
Anyway, conservative estimate, as at the last set of accounts, just to get the keys to the door would cost you £69.5m
That's before you even start with what you're buying.
The reason the club is so screwed FFP wise is because it has an antiquated, small stadium which generates no income, and apparently is very difficult to improve. Even if you could improve it with a new stand, hospitality, "digging down", revolving restaurant, how much does that all cost?
You're also inheriting a squad that needs significant improvement in every area, but to do so breaches the rules of the league because of the FFP situation. Your options would just be to completely ignore FFP, build the team you wanted, and get it promoted within 12 months (Wolves), but if you miss then you become Sheff Wed or Derby because that's what they did. Or you settle in for a seriously long rebuild under the rules, which given the state of the team now would almost certainly include a drop into League One (inconveniently just as the Championship gets a nice new double your money TV deal).
So £69m to get the keys to a millstone stadium you can't improve with the division's worst team you can't do anything with. But, yeh, you're right, we are in London.
It's what Jeff said above. If they could find anybody stupid enough to do it they'd have been off like a shot years ago. It's a money pit.
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:43 - Oct 12 by GaryBannister86
So we just need to find a mad keen QPR fan (with a fantastic strategic brain, preferably owning a huge betting company) with a spare quarter of billion?
We should all ask around.
We have one of those at the minute! You mean another one !
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Amit’s put club up for sale! on 17:27 - Oct 12 with 2707 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 13:56 - Oct 12 by Northernr
Let's have a look at that attractive proposition, shall we?
The club, at the last set of accounts, loses £2m a month in its current state. You'd be on the hook for that as soon as you buy it. It's likely much less this season (well, we wanna hope it's much less this season or we're in breach of FFP), but still that's £24m a year as at the last set of accounts.
The training ground development is said to be £20m+ of which £7m+ was raised through the bond. So there's another £14m there which was more than likely not paid up front, will be done on finance and over time. You'd be picking up whatever is left there.
There is a historic FFP fine (£17m fine and £3m of EFL legal costs). They were paying that off in instalments over a ten year period, and the settlement was in 2018 so five years of that left = at the last set of accounts £10.2m.
We owe the EFL £6m for loans taken during the Covid lockdown.
At the last set of accounts we owed £2.1m in outstanding player transfer fees.
Our owners effectively write the debt off. They put money in to fund all of that, and then periodically they just convert the debt to equity. We're very fortunate they do, we'd be dead immediately without it. But as at the last set of accounts we owed £52m in shareholder loans. Like I say, they'll likely just convert that to equity in time (it's how Ruben has become the majority shareholder ahead of Fernandes, because he's picking up the cheque) but were they to sell the club at that point would they be expecting some/all of that back from whoever is buying it?
Anyway, conservative estimate, as at the last set of accounts, just to get the keys to the door would cost you £69.5m
That's before you even start with what you're buying.
The reason the club is so screwed FFP wise is because it has an antiquated, small stadium which generates no income, and apparently is very difficult to improve. Even if you could improve it with a new stand, hospitality, "digging down", revolving restaurant, how much does that all cost?
You're also inheriting a squad that needs significant improvement in every area, but to do so breaches the rules of the league because of the FFP situation. Your options would just be to completely ignore FFP, build the team you wanted, and get it promoted within 12 months (Wolves), but if you miss then you become Sheff Wed or Derby because that's what they did. Or you settle in for a seriously long rebuild under the rules, which given the state of the team now would almost certainly include a drop into League One (inconveniently just as the Championship gets a nice new double your money TV deal).
So £69m to get the keys to a millstone stadium you can't improve with the division's worst team you can't do anything with. But, yeh, you're right, we are in London.
It's what Jeff said above. If they could find anybody stupid enough to do it they'd have been off like a shot years ago. It's a money pit.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Explaining in graphic detail why the next fool and his money shouldn't be separated in house QPR isn't going to help long term survivability.
I think it may be to our advantage to pretend everything is absolutely fine, it is after all what the current owners have been doing...
Chairman of the Junior Hoilett appreciation society
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 14:12 - Oct 12 by Northernr
... and want to spend £68m to inherit a stadium and a team you can't do anything with.
In the football world where someone like Declan Rice costs £105 million than £68m for a whole football club isn't too bad is it? £2 mill p/m for multi Billionares to keep a football club still open for business is hardly breaking their bank account is it? £2 mill to cover their own incompetents.
Amit has had an easy ride from the fans but I'm guessing it's starting to turn. Be interesting how he deals with it.
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Amit’s put club up for sale! on 20:52 - Oct 12 with 2259 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 18:54 - Oct 12 by PunteR
In the football world where someone like Declan Rice costs £105 million than £68m for a whole football club isn't too bad is it? £2 mill p/m for multi Billionares to keep a football club still open for business is hardly breaking their bank account is it? £2 mill to cover their own incompetents.
Amit has had an easy ride from the fans but I'm guessing it's starting to turn. Be interesting how he deals with it.
But by the same token, why would you not just buy Millwall or Charlton. Similar size London clubs, better grounds, better teams, more ffp headroom, save yourself the 69m to start with.
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Amit’s put club up for sale! on 20:58 - Oct 12 with 2239 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 20:52 - Oct 12 by Northernr
But by the same token, why would you not just buy Millwall or Charlton. Similar size London clubs, better grounds, better teams, more ffp headroom, save yourself the 69m to start with.
The situation isn't great, granted, but, as this graphic for 2021/22 shows, there are many clubs in far worse positions than us. We should be realistic about our circumstances, sure, but there's no need to talk us down any further than necessary. At this level, all football clubs are massively loss-making businesses. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 21:39 - Oct 12 by stainrods_elbow
The situation isn't great, granted, but, as this graphic for 2021/22 shows, there are many clubs in far worse positions than us. We should be realistic about our circumstances, sure, but there's no need to talk us down any further than necessary. At this level, all football clubs are massively loss-making businesses. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
[Post edited 12 Oct 2023 21:44]
You've taken one very basic metric, from one year. And even that doesn't look great at all. Everything below us on that graph there is a team in receipt of a parachute payment, a club that has got away with things through significant player sales, or a club that you'd generously class as abysmally run. Or combinations of those three. You've described them as in much worse situations than us - three of them are now in the Premier League, and have stayed up at least one season.
I've shown you my workings, on multiple different problems you'd have on your plate the second you take control of the place having, as I've shown, paid north of £60m just to do that.
Like I say, if anybody was half stupid enough to do it you wouldn't see the current owners for dust. This is currently a bonfire for their money. They'd be shot of it at the first possible opportunity. They can't get rid of it for the reasons I've given.
This post has been edited by an administrator
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Amit’s put club up for sale! on 05:41 - Oct 13 with 1903 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 21:39 - Oct 12 by stainrods_elbow
The situation isn't great, granted, but, as this graphic for 2021/22 shows, there are many clubs in far worse positions than us. We should be realistic about our circumstances, sure, but there's no need to talk us down any further than necessary. At this level, all football clubs are massively loss-making businesses. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
[Post edited 12 Oct 2023 21:44]
This table appears to show that Watford need to go from losing £70m+ to making a £30m+ profit in the two seasons surrounding this one in order to not fail FFP doesn’t it? And Stoke basically can’t afford to lose a single penny in either season either?
Am I thick or do I not understand what I’m looking at or the rules?
0
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 05:59 - Oct 13 with 1855 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 13:56 - Oct 12 by Northernr
Let's have a look at that attractive proposition, shall we?
The club, at the last set of accounts, loses £2m a month in its current state. You'd be on the hook for that as soon as you buy it. It's likely much less this season (well, we wanna hope it's much less this season or we're in breach of FFP), but still that's £24m a year as at the last set of accounts.
The training ground development is said to be £20m+ of which £7m+ was raised through the bond. So there's another £14m there which was more than likely not paid up front, will be done on finance and over time. You'd be picking up whatever is left there.
There is a historic FFP fine (£17m fine and £3m of EFL legal costs). They were paying that off in instalments over a ten year period, and the settlement was in 2018 so five years of that left = at the last set of accounts £10.2m.
We owe the EFL £6m for loans taken during the Covid lockdown.
At the last set of accounts we owed £2.1m in outstanding player transfer fees.
Our owners effectively write the debt off. They put money in to fund all of that, and then periodically they just convert the debt to equity. We're very fortunate they do, we'd be dead immediately without it. But as at the last set of accounts we owed £52m in shareholder loans. Like I say, they'll likely just convert that to equity in time (it's how Ruben has become the majority shareholder ahead of Fernandes, because he's picking up the cheque) but were they to sell the club at that point would they be expecting some/all of that back from whoever is buying it?
Anyway, conservative estimate, as at the last set of accounts, just to get the keys to the door would cost you £69.5m
That's before you even start with what you're buying.
The reason the club is so screwed FFP wise is because it has an antiquated, small stadium which generates no income, and apparently is very difficult to improve. Even if you could improve it with a new stand, hospitality, "digging down", revolving restaurant, how much does that all cost?
You're also inheriting a squad that needs significant improvement in every area, but to do so breaches the rules of the league because of the FFP situation. Your options would just be to completely ignore FFP, build the team you wanted, and get it promoted within 12 months (Wolves), but if you miss then you become Sheff Wed or Derby because that's what they did. Or you settle in for a seriously long rebuild under the rules, which given the state of the team now would almost certainly include a drop into League One (inconveniently just as the Championship gets a nice new double your money TV deal).
So £69m to get the keys to a millstone stadium you can't improve with the division's worst team you can't do anything with. But, yeh, you're right, we are in London.
It's what Jeff said above. If they could find anybody stupid enough to do it they'd have been off like a shot years ago. It's a money pit.
This post has been edited by an administrator
We are so fooked its untrue......
1
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 08:03 - Oct 13 with 1671 views
In terms of buying the football club, any sensible new owner would tell this lot to convert any remaining debt into shares, hand over the keys to LR, then offer to relieve them of all future pain by placing a £1 coin on the table.
They’d separately sensibly agree to take over responsibility and payment for the training ground but as far as LR, in its capacity as only being a sports facility, and the playing side, £1 would be a perfectly reasonable offer.
Even that offer might only happen if we hurry up and get relegated to League One.
0
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 08:53 - Oct 13 with 1553 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 21:39 - Oct 12 by stainrods_elbow
The situation isn't great, granted, but, as this graphic for 2021/22 shows, there are many clubs in far worse positions than us. We should be realistic about our circumstances, sure, but there's no need to talk us down any further than necessary. At this level, all football clubs are massively loss-making businesses. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
[Post edited 12 Oct 2023 21:44]
This graph just shows the difference between well run and poorly run clubs. Watford just a couple of places above us now.Coventry and Luton in last year’s playoff final. Luton now a Premier League club. Vast income certainly helps but good business practice, scouting and coaching can sometimes trump that.
0
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 09:07 - Oct 13 with 1529 views
So... Cardiff lost £11.2m in 2021, £26.6m in 2022 which means a two year rolling total would be £37.8m. So surely in 2023 they would only be allowed to lose £1.2m?
They haven't sold anyone for a significant transfer fee and admittedly haven't paid a single transfer fee either. But they have ADDED Aaron Ramsey, Yakou Meite, Karlan Grant and Josh Bowler to the wage bill this season. It's pretty tough to see how they're going to turn a £26.6m loss into a £1.2m loss with all that activity.
In many ways they're in a similar boat to us this season by the look of these numbers... So umm... what am I missing here?
[Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:08]
0
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 09:09 - Oct 13 with 1521 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 09:07 - Oct 13 by Padulas_Shampoo
So... Cardiff lost £11.2m in 2021, £26.6m in 2022 which means a two year rolling total would be £37.8m. So surely in 2023 they would only be allowed to lose £1.2m?
They haven't sold anyone for a significant transfer fee and admittedly haven't paid a single transfer fee either. But they have ADDED Aaron Ramsey, Yakou Meite, Karlan Grant and Josh Bowler to the wage bill this season. It's pretty tough to see how they're going to turn a £26.6m loss into a £1.2m loss with all that activity.
In many ways they're in a similar boat to us this season by the look of these numbers... So umm... what am I missing here?
[Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:08]
They're one of the clubs I don't understand how they're not in breach or at least very close.
1
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 09:11 - Oct 13 with 1496 views
Amit’s put club up for sale! on 05:41 - Oct 13 by Padulas_Shampoo
This table appears to show that Watford need to go from losing £70m+ to making a £30m+ profit in the two seasons surrounding this one in order to not fail FFP doesn’t it? And Stoke basically can’t afford to lose a single penny in either season either?
Am I thick or do I not understand what I’m looking at or the rules?
FFP doesn't apply to Watford. Whenever there's an issue they just send a player to Udinese and the chairman passes £20m from his left hand to his right hand.
Stoke have since sold Harry Souttar for ridiculous money.
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