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To the several posters who rushed to point out that terrorists are using refugee influxes to infiltrate Europe, your point is...what?
...that there should be more stringent security checking of refugees? That would be the rational answer, but no, I suspect your point is that that breach of security justifies excluding refugees. Please don't trot out that (impressively trained!) dog-whistling stalking horse here.
Start an anti-immigration thread so Clive can delete it.
Edit: Actually, I'd love to see a dog-whistling stalking horse!
"One question that I do have though is about the Muslim communities in this country.Do the divisions that lead to Muslims killing fellow Muslims in other parts of the world exist here? Are there seperate mosques here for Sunni and Shia Muslims?And if they can live together peaceably here,why can't it happen elsewhere?"
Over there a lot of them have tents or poor buildings and the main source of entertainments is listening to the stories of their religious nutcases
over here they have good housing, Sky and Virgin Media, large screen TV's Emmerdale and Black Fridays, whos uncle killed who a thousand years ago probably doesnt seem so important
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 10:37 - Nov 15 with 3471 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 02:49 - Nov 15 by isawqpratwcity
To the several posters who rushed to point out that terrorists are using refugee influxes to infiltrate Europe, your point is...what?
...that there should be more stringent security checking of refugees? That would be the rational answer, but no, I suspect your point is that that breach of security justifies excluding refugees. Please don't trot out that (impressively trained!) dog-whistling stalking horse here.
Start an anti-immigration thread so Clive can delete it.
Edit: Actually, I'd love to see a dog-whistling stalking horse!
[Post edited 15 Nov 2015 3:49]
I wouldn't buy into the Refugee status story of the Daily Mail too soon for several reasons, there's a deluge of dodgy passports in Europe, it's likely if any passports were found near the attackers bodies are fakes, or could have been planted for other purposes by State agencies. Staggering they can find 'evidence' instantly but are still looking for evidence of WMD.
Be extremely careful out there folks, we can't give in to these idiots, but remain vigilante at all times out there.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:08 - Nov 15 with 3422 views
the BBC did a poll amongst British muslims after the Charlie Hebdo massacre and 27% said they sympathised with it. That equates to about 1 million muslims in the uk.
I really hope the sympathy for this event is lower than that.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2015 11:48]
TheGrimRanger
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:22 - Nov 15 with 3399 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 10:37 - Nov 15 by Brightonhoop
I wouldn't buy into the Refugee status story of the Daily Mail too soon for several reasons, there's a deluge of dodgy passports in Europe, it's likely if any passports were found near the attackers bodies are fakes, or could have been planted for other purposes by State agencies. Staggering they can find 'evidence' instantly but are still looking for evidence of WMD.
Be extremely careful out there folks, we can't give in to these idiots, but remain vigilante at all times out there.
Are you not yourself planting conspiracy theories with that.
Bombs at France game and shooting on 10:37 - Nov 15 by Brightonhoop
I wouldn't buy into the Refugee status story of the Daily Mail too soon for several reasons, there's a deluge of dodgy passports in Europe, it's likely if any passports were found near the attackers bodies are fakes, or could have been planted for other purposes by State agencies. Staggering they can find 'evidence' instantly but are still looking for evidence of WMD.
Be extremely careful out there folks, we can't give in to these idiots, but remain vigilante at all times out there.
I had hip replacement surgery on Wednesday and the surgeon was an Arabic doctor possibly a Muslim, it wasn't appropriate to discuss religion or politics. He was very kind and helpful, spoke perfect English and did a very good job and was admired by by his colleagues. I am sure there are many like him contributing to our country, so please let's not generalise about race and religion.
In bombing Iraq the Americans killed more innocent citizens than Saddam and we were responsible for part of it. The attacks on Assad in Syria have led to a disaster far beyond anything he was causing. I don't understand why America thinks it has the right to interfere in these countries affaires and in every case it has led to disaster. I also don't understand why our government of whatever party feels it right for us to follow America's flawed policies into these battles like puppy dogs.
I think it is necessary, if we have evidence against people encouraging terrorism to lock the people responsible away, rather than rely on our security forces to monitor them. I think we also need to make it easier for moderates of all faiths and politics to condemn the radicalists, because at the moment they fear being targeted if they speak out against them.
Who's Next?
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:33 - Nov 15 with 3355 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:26 - Nov 15 by SomersetHoops
I had hip replacement surgery on Wednesday and the surgeon was an Arabic doctor possibly a Muslim, it wasn't appropriate to discuss religion or politics. He was very kind and helpful, spoke perfect English and did a very good job and was admired by by his colleagues. I am sure there are many like him contributing to our country, so please let's not generalise about race and religion.
In bombing Iraq the Americans killed more innocent citizens than Saddam and we were responsible for part of it. The attacks on Assad in Syria have led to a disaster far beyond anything he was causing. I don't understand why America thinks it has the right to interfere in these countries affaires and in every case it has led to disaster. I also don't understand why our government of whatever party feels it right for us to follow America's flawed policies into these battles like puppy dogs.
I think it is necessary, if we have evidence against people encouraging terrorism to lock the people responsible away, rather than rely on our security forces to monitor them. I think we also need to make it easier for moderates of all faiths and politics to condemn the radicalists, because at the moment they fear being targeted if they speak out against them.
Without doubt, innocent people on all side are reaping what governments sow.
Not my intention at all. We have to think, and not rely on what Govt or Media tell us, they hav an agenda always. What they want is a population in fear physically and to not think. So we have to treat proclamation with a healthy dose of doubt and cynicism.
What I can't comprehend, is that we are told 400 jihadis are in the UK having trained in Syria and are now returned. Wtf? Why are they still amongst us? It's the same in Spain. 7 people launched the Paris attacks. And we are powerless to remove them from the community? Utter rubbish. You lock them up pronto and build a criminal case against them with the aim of whole life sentences to isolate them. You talk to the EU and say, this is what we are doing for the security of our people, within our own legal frame work, and if any sanctions come onto UK consequently from the EU we will leave the EU the following day. Either we are being lied to regarding 400 and it's just two bids from Slough, or Government is weaker and powerless more than we imagine.
Utter madness.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:58 - Nov 15 with 3288 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:26 - Nov 15 by SomersetHoops
I had hip replacement surgery on Wednesday and the surgeon was an Arabic doctor possibly a Muslim, it wasn't appropriate to discuss religion or politics. He was very kind and helpful, spoke perfect English and did a very good job and was admired by by his colleagues. I am sure there are many like him contributing to our country, so please let's not generalise about race and religion.
In bombing Iraq the Americans killed more innocent citizens than Saddam and we were responsible for part of it. The attacks on Assad in Syria have led to a disaster far beyond anything he was causing. I don't understand why America thinks it has the right to interfere in these countries affaires and in every case it has led to disaster. I also don't understand why our government of whatever party feels it right for us to follow America's flawed policies into these battles like puppy dogs.
I think it is necessary, if we have evidence against people encouraging terrorism to lock the people responsible away, rather than rely on our security forces to monitor them. I think we also need to make it easier for moderates of all faiths and politics to condemn the radicalists, because at the moment they fear being targeted if they speak out against them.
"I had hip replacement surgery on Wednesday and the surgeon was an Arabic doctor possibly a Muslim" you made that assumption just by looking at the guy? Not all Middle Eastern people or Arabs are Muslims. I know over a hundred Middle Eastern people and none of them are Muslim. I totally agree with the rest of what you've written though somerset.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2015 12:34]
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 12:12 - Nov 15 with 3254 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:58 - Nov 15 by CHUBBS
"I had hip replacement surgery on Wednesday and the surgeon was an Arabic doctor possibly a Muslim" you made that assumption just by looking at the guy? Not all Middle Eastern people or Arabs are Muslims. I know over a hundred Middle Eastern people and none of them are Muslim. I totally agree with the rest of what you've written though somerset.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2015 12:34]
I totally agree with the rest of what you've written though cider.
And I agree with both of you, but I am not the same poster as Somerset.
Typical prejudice, assuming that everyone in the Wesuvengland is guzzling cider all the time.
Though, as it happens, we all are.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 12:35 - Nov 15 with 3209 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 17:32 - Nov 14 by paulparker
Now there is a shock , not
The time for action is now , fcuk all this #prayforparis sh1t from z list celebs & millionaire footballers Same as marching down the street with candles and cardboard messages We need to root out these extremists and get tough with them ,25 year sentences if need be Close down mosques with history of radcallism, shut our borders right away Anyone without a NI number gets deported I await the backlash of being called this and that but fcuk it , I'm sick of this stuff keep happening It will be here soon and it could be anyone of our friends or family involved You can't talk to this lot anyone thinking that is very naive , we cannot keep sweeping this under the carpet
As much as I can understand the lashing out against all and sundry, how many innocent people are going to get caught up in such wide ranging sweeps.
I have no problem with deporting foreign nationals who have broken our laws but be very careful of advocating a wholesale overruling of liberties that we have fought for over the centuries. Because they make this country what it is - a liberal, western democracy with checks and balances.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 17:37 - Nov 15 with 2975 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 16:57 - Nov 15 by derbyhoop
As much as I can understand the lashing out against all and sundry, how many innocent people are going to get caught up in such wide ranging sweeps.
I have no problem with deporting foreign nationals who have broken our laws but be very careful of advocating a wholesale overruling of liberties that we have fought for over the centuries. Because they make this country what it is - a liberal, western democracy with checks and balances.
That's the point though, aspects of Islam are utterly incompatible with the West. You can't keep your Western liberal society whilst ignoring the ever growing elephant in the room. Look at the rape stats in Sweden that have gone through the roof in the last decade.
If it is a choice between treating some groups in an authoritarian manner or people getting gunned down in theatres and women and children under a much higher threat of rape then I'm afraid I'm going to choose the former. We can all skirt around the issue as long as we want, but that is the choice that needs to be made. Either way the liberal Western way of life is coming to an end.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 17:50 - Nov 15 with 2942 views
I may be an optimist but I don't for one minute believe that Western liberalism is coming to an end. It creaks at the edges and our version of democracy is far from perfect. But there are ways of protecting us without denying us our liberties.
This warning (paraphrased) on authoritarian crackdowns came from Nazi era Germany They came for the communists and I did nothing because I wasn't a communist. They came for the gypsies and I did nothing because I wasn't a gypsy They came for the disabled and I did nothing because I'm not disabled. They came for the Jews and I did nothing because I'm not Jewish. Now they're coming for me. Who will protect me?
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 17:56 - Nov 15 with 2933 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 17:50 - Nov 15 by derbyhoop
I may be an optimist but I don't for one minute believe that Western liberalism is coming to an end. It creaks at the edges and our version of democracy is far from perfect. But there are ways of protecting us without denying us our liberties.
This warning (paraphrased) on authoritarian crackdowns came from Nazi era Germany They came for the communists and I did nothing because I wasn't a communist. They came for the gypsies and I did nothing because I wasn't a gypsy They came for the disabled and I did nothing because I'm not disabled. They came for the Jews and I did nothing because I'm not Jewish. Now they're coming for me. Who will protect me?
We also cracked down on the Nazis themselves. If they were around now we'd be told that by just being a bit more tolerant and understanding towards them then everything will be alright.
If a crackdown isn't the answer then what exactly is? I doubt that there is an effective way of dealing with this nicely.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 21:16 - Nov 15 with 2756 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:38 - Nov 14 by isawqpratwcity
If you vilify all adherents of Islam then you will fuel a reciprocal action. You will lose the support of the very people, moderate Muslims, who will be most useful in identifying and combating threats. The terrorist propaganda is that we oppress all of Islam and that all Muslims should fight us. We shouldn't help them prove that message.
We don't have the support of moderate Muslims and they are more likely to harbour radical Muslims than help us identify and combat their threat.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 22:41 - Nov 15 with 2661 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 11:39 - Nov 15 by Clive_Anderson
"To the several posters who rushed to point out that terrorists are using refugee influxes to infiltrate Europe, your point is...what?"
You're actually asking why people don't want more immigration from the Middle East? Seriously?
"but no, I suspect your point is that that breach of security justifies excluding refugees"
Er...yes.
"You're actually asking why people don't want more immigration from the Middle East? Seriously?"
No, I'm not. I was talking about the taking in of refugees, not immigration. If you haven't the humanity to know the difference, fine. You certainly seem to have an appreciation of the awful conditions they are trying to escape from.
"but no, I suspect your point is that that breach of security justifies excluding refugees"
"Er...yes."
What is it about a security check on refugees that is so prohibitive? The cost? Or do you just tick the box 'Any Excuse Will Do'?
Just watching our morning TV and it showed the crowd of well wishers getting panicked by kids setting off firecrackers.Karl Stefanovic( our Eamonn Holmes) caught caught up in the stampede People are understandably twitchy over there.
Bombs at France game and shooting on 21:16 - Nov 15 by Benny_the_Ball
We don't have the support of moderate Muslims and they are more likely to harbour radical Muslims than help us identify and combat their threat.
"We don't have the support of moderate Muslims and they are more likely to harbour radical Muslims than help us identify and combat their threat."
No support at all? None? From any at all? You know you don't believe that.
"...more likely..."
You may be right, I don't know, and most likely you don't know for sure, either. But personally, I doubt it. You don't hear the police and Security Service complaining about how little help they get, because it suits everyone to keep that cooperation quiet, while the converse, aiding terrorists, is a punishable crime.
Bombs at France game and shooting on 23:20 - Nov 15 by isawqpratwcity
"We don't have the support of moderate Muslims and they are more likely to harbour radical Muslims than help us identify and combat their threat."
No support at all? None? From any at all? You know you don't believe that.
"...more likely..."
You may be right, I don't know, and most likely you don't know for sure, either. But personally, I doubt it. You don't hear the police and Security Service complaining about how little help they get, because it suits everyone to keep that cooperation quiet, while the converse, aiding terrorists, is a punishable crime.
And the 400 we are told returned from fighting in Syria? Living amongst their families and communities. Nobody else is hiding them. Nobody is identifying them. Nobody else is attacking us.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 23:58 - Nov 15 with 2553 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 22:41 - Nov 15 by isawqpratwcity
"You're actually asking why people don't want more immigration from the Middle East? Seriously?"
No, I'm not. I was talking about the taking in of refugees, not immigration. If you haven't the humanity to know the difference, fine. You certainly seem to have an appreciation of the awful conditions they are trying to escape from.
"but no, I suspect your point is that that breach of security justifies excluding refugees"
"Er...yes."
What is it about a security check on refugees that is so prohibitive? The cost? Or do you just tick the box 'Any Excuse Will Do'?
Help the refugees near their own countries in safe zones. It is 16 times more cost effective to help them there. There is absolutely zero need for them to risk their lives crossing the sea to get to Europe, not that a lot of them were in any danger anyway.
Europe clearly can't do a security check on all the arrivals because one of them seems to have been involved in the Paris attacks.
But yes regardless of that I don't think taking in tens of thousands from the Middle East and Africa with the majority being fighting age men is going to be anything but a disaster for Europe. High unemployment, crime, lack of integration, increased risk of terror and a totally intolerant and alien culture are the result. People have had enough.
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Bombs at France game and shooting on 00:28 - Nov 16 with 2528 views
Bombs at France game and shooting on 23:40 - Nov 15 by Brightonhoop
And the 400 we are told returned from fighting in Syria? Living amongst their families and communities. Nobody else is hiding them. Nobody is identifying them. Nobody else is attacking us.
I don't know the 400 you are talking about but lets assume they are that they are fugitives from the law and living amongst their families and communities. Do you think they are living openly? Of course not. They will be in hiding, lying about who they are and what they have done because there will always be someone who wants a favour from a cop, or a reward, or even just thinks that a person like that brings shame onto the Muslim community and shouldn't be tolerated.
"Nobody else is attacking us."
You live in rural Spain, don't you ? Terrorist hot spot? I live in rural Australia. In the infinitesimal chance there was a terrorist attack here, every single expression of outrage would have the unspoken sigh of relief at least they didn't attack somewhere important (that's a gentle attempt at humour). Once again, BH, I have to ask you to stop the fear-mongering talk and to get some perspective.
Bombs at France game and shooting on 23:58 - Nov 15 by Clive_Anderson
Help the refugees near their own countries in safe zones. It is 16 times more cost effective to help them there. There is absolutely zero need for them to risk their lives crossing the sea to get to Europe, not that a lot of them were in any danger anyway.
Europe clearly can't do a security check on all the arrivals because one of them seems to have been involved in the Paris attacks.
But yes regardless of that I don't think taking in tens of thousands from the Middle East and Africa with the majority being fighting age men is going to be anything but a disaster for Europe. High unemployment, crime, lack of integration, increased risk of terror and a totally intolerant and alien culture are the result. People have had enough.
And yet they do risk their lives.
Did that man have a security check? Why do you say 'can't' rather than 'didn't'?
They are refugees. You make the effort.
What people have had enough? Enough of what? All people? People want answers!
I think we've gone past fear mongering talk. Its very real what's going on and people have every right to be suspicious and be fearful. I do think 99% of people of all religions just want a decent peaceful life,and its the minority that's causing the problems. Im not even sure its a religion thing anymore. The Muslim faith has the same origins as the christian faith, both religions believe the human race started with Adam and Eve. So if we're all from the same blood line why we all trying to kill each other. Religion has got a lot to answer for.
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