| Gary Neville 19:12 - Jul 12 with 8126 views | saint22 |
Talking sense again
Asking why when our PM refused to condemn those Booing when players take the knee AGAINST racism last week, we are Surprised that people Post such vile abuse online
As he said it starts at the top |  | | |  |
| Gary Neville on 00:39 - Jul 17 with 1040 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Gary Neville on 00:33 - Jul 17 by DorsetIan |
A story from February?? Saha is an old story too. Read what I said above about previously thinking it should stop.
Things change and move one. The booing of The England team, the stupid Priti Patel comments, the letter from Southgate, the abuse after the penalties, the comment by Mings. The dial has shifted. The old nonsense about BLM, defunding police, Saha etc. just don’t cut it now. |
But what Zaha said has some merit in my view. The racists need to be stopped, rather than ineffective campaigns having little success. | |
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| Gary Neville on 09:23 - Jul 17 with 979 views | Bazza |
Yougov poll shows majority in favour of taking the knee.
BUT a majority in England also think it’s not important in combating racism. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 09:57 - Jul 17 with 953 views | Sadoldgit |
| Gary Neville on 00:39 - Jul 17 by Saintsforeverj |
But what Zaha said has some merit in my view. The racists need to be stopped, rather than ineffective campaigns having little success. |
Which surely is the whole point of the exercise. At the start of every game the players demonstrate that racism is not acceptable. This is what most black players want to do in their fight against racism. It might not be much but at least it is something. I find it quite strange when a bunch of white people tell those being abused on a regular basis what they should or should not do in response. If the point of the exercise is to keep people talking about it, as evidenced by social media platforms, it is doing the job perfectly well. |  | | |
| Gary Neville on 10:07 - Jul 17 with 941 views | Bicester_North |
| Gary Neville on 00:33 - Jul 17 by DorsetIan |
A story from February?? Saha is an old story too. Read what I said above about previously thinking it should stop.
Things change and move one. The booing of The England team, the stupid Priti Patel comments, the letter from Southgate, the abuse after the penalties, the comment by Mings. The dial has shifted. The old nonsense about BLM, defunding police, Saha etc. just don’t cut it now. |
Ian, your opinion is always correct, correct? Anyone who disagrees is wrong yes? | |
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| Gary Neville on 11:09 - Jul 17 with 922 views | Bison |
| Gary Neville on 09:57 - Jul 17 by Sadoldgit |
Which surely is the whole point of the exercise. At the start of every game the players demonstrate that racism is not acceptable. This is what most black players want to do in their fight against racism. It might not be much but at least it is something. I find it quite strange when a bunch of white people tell those being abused on a regular basis what they should or should not do in response. If the point of the exercise is to keep people talking about it, as evidenced by social media platforms, it is doing the job perfectly well. |
Its gets less meaningful every game it happens especially the fact the referee has to start it and stop it and the fans get annoyed as they are there to watch the football but are being dragged into it no other sport or event does this.
If the players want to do it fine but the ref should not have to police it , the fans are wound up and excited anyway waiting for the game to start so the booing is frustration. So let players do it if they want and maybe set aside a weekend like they do for poppy day or someone dies to make it special.
When the kids are copying it and laughing about it when they play there game just for a laugh you know the way the message is being transmitted is past its sell by date. |  |
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| Gary Neville on 14:25 - Jul 17 with 880 views | Sadoldgit |
| Gary Neville on 11:09 - Jul 17 by Bison |
Its gets less meaningful every game it happens especially the fact the referee has to start it and stop it and the fans get annoyed as they are there to watch the football but are being dragged into it no other sport or event does this.
If the players want to do it fine but the ref should not have to police it , the fans are wound up and excited anyway waiting for the game to start so the booing is frustration. So let players do it if they want and maybe set aside a weekend like they do for poppy day or someone dies to make it special.
When the kids are copying it and laughing about it when they play there game just for a laugh you know the way the message is being transmitted is past its sell by date. |
It takes what? About 30 seconds before the kick off. Perhaps it means less to some but the people who get abused on a regular basis think it is worthwhile, so why not, at the very least, just support them? Are the people booing because it has taken 30 seconds of their time or because, misguidedly they think it is related to things like defunding the police? As for kids laughing about it. Perhaps they do, but at least they are being made aware of the issue and that is what this is about, awareness and non-acceptance. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 00:26 - Jul 18 with 845 views | Bicester_North |
| Gary Neville on 16:35 - Jul 13 by saint22 |
That is what we are though these days, and getting smaller and more insular by the year
I was at the final with friends and our kids and it was quite horrendous the amount of abuse being hurled around, the people trying to bum rush to get in for free, the litter and broken glass and missiles being thrown around all up Wembley Way. You don't get scenes like that at weekly football grounds, so why for England games and especially one like that which hasnt happened for over 50 years. Some kids were crying and literally terrified at what was going on around them
What is it with these so called fans? People? Its just very sad if tats what they call fun and they can't celebrate without acting like nasty fascist hate filled thugs |
Still waiting for answers to my questions about this bullshit post Heisenberg…. | |
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| Gary Neville on 00:46 - Jul 18 with 842 views | DorsetIan |
| Gary Neville on 10:07 - Jul 17 by Bicester_North |
Ian, your opinion is always correct, correct? Anyone who disagrees is wrong yes? |
What would you prefer, that I posted stuff that I don’t believe is true?
Is that what you do?
Neither is it me booing players (or endorsing the right to boo them) because I disagree with their choice of anti-racism protest.
So you can hop off your high horse. [Post edited 18 Jul 2021 0:47]
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| Gary Neville on 00:53 - Jul 18 with 834 views | Bicester_North |
| Gary Neville on 00:46 - Jul 18 by DorsetIan |
What would you prefer, that I posted stuff that I don’t believe is true?
Is that what you do?
Neither is it me booing players (or endorsing the right to boo them) because I disagree with their choice of anti-racism protest.
So you can hop off your high horse. [Post edited 18 Jul 2021 0:47]
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You say people that disagree with your opinion are wrong. That is a horrible fascist tendency. People are entitled to their opinions.
I don’t boo players either you unpleasant human, unless they piss around on the pitch and time waste or dive. [Post edited 18 Jul 2021 0:54]
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| Gary Neville on 01:02 - Jul 18 with 828 views | Bicester_North |
| Gary Neville on 16:35 - Jul 13 by saint22 |
That is what we are though these days, and getting smaller and more insular by the year
I was at the final with friends and our kids and it was quite horrendous the amount of abuse being hurled around, the people trying to bum rush to get in for free, the litter and broken glass and missiles being thrown around all up Wembley Way. You don't get scenes like that at weekly football grounds, so why for England games and especially one like that which hasnt happened for over 50 years. Some kids were crying and literally terrified at what was going on around them
What is it with these so called fans? People? Its just very sad if tats what they call fun and they can't celebrate without acting like nasty fascist hate filled thugs |
Were the black and Asian lads who rushed the gates fascists Laurenberg? | |
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| Gary Neville on 07:37 - Jul 18 with 769 views | saint22 |
| Gary Neville on 01:02 - Jul 18 by Bicester_North |
Were the black and Asian lads who rushed the gates fascists Laurenberg? |
Lay off the Diamond White weirdo | | | |
| Gary Neville on 08:32 - Jul 18 with 741 views | Bison |
| Gary Neville on 14:25 - Jul 17 by Sadoldgit |
It takes what? About 30 seconds before the kick off. Perhaps it means less to some but the people who get abused on a regular basis think it is worthwhile, so why not, at the very least, just support them? Are the people booing because it has taken 30 seconds of their time or because, misguidedly they think it is related to things like defunding the police? As for kids laughing about it. Perhaps they do, but at least they are being made aware of the issue and that is what this is about, awareness and non-acceptance. |
i will follow Ians's logic on this , i am right you are wrong.
When you force people to do something straight away you lose the argument , forcing referees and fans to sit through those 30 seconds is not the way to go. As far as I am aware no other league or sport does this yet you seem to think its the blueprint to beat racism , looks like its just adding to it to me.
I would definitely make Ings exempt from doing it as I will bet you a penny to a bag of sh!te that he will do a cruciate ligament . [Post edited 18 Jul 2021 9:02]
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| Gary Neville on 09:51 - Jul 18 with 715 views | DorsetIan |
I am really looking forward to the outpouring of conciliation and mutual understandings on this forum.
A new era of constructive pluralism beckons, clearly. | |
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| Gary Neville on 22:38 - Jul 18 with 660 views | Bicester_North |
| Gary Neville on 07:37 - Jul 18 by saint22 |
Lay off the Diamond White weirdo |
Outed as a liar for the 100th time Benno | |
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| Gary Neville on 12:02 - Jul 20 with 564 views | Tinman |
Right at the start let me say racism is deplorable and in fact stupid. We are all of the human race. Also a player doesn't miss a penalty because of his skin colour.
This is rightly an issue that needs addressing but without wishing to defend any politician, I think perhaps they, like many others I have heard from, see a difference between anti-racism and actions in line with BLM.
BLM as a movement wants more than to end racism - and I have yet to meet someone who doesn't want that. However, BLM also want to defund the police and destroy the traditional family unit among other things - apparently all this is right there on their web page. Taking the knee is an action from BLM therefore an action that certain people do not like even if they too are anti-racist.
However, booing someone who stresses a political opinion is a backwards step, so there is that.
I was speaking to a black Nigerian last night who said he was against taking the knee. I know a few other black/coloured people who also dislike it.
I think the thinking is also that maybe many footballers do not realise the deeper/wider political intentions of BLM and are under pressure to kneel. Can you imagine the backlash if someone says 'Although I am fully against racism, I won't kneel due to the wider political inclusions of the BLM movement'? His club would be under pressure not to pick him again, he would be vilified on social media and lose any sponsorship deals - even though he comes out and says he is against racism in the first place.
It doesn't help that we seemed to have lost the ability to sit down and intelligently talk through issues. And to be honest, I have no idea if the PM or Priti Patel are thinking this when they don't denounce booing but then denounce racism - as I said - I'm not here to defend them, or speak for them.
Even thinking about posting here today made me think hard about what the backlash will be just for trying to shed some light on a possible difference in reasoning of being anti-racist but anti-BLM (as political entity). I am hoping that Saints fans can see the subtlety.
So let me clarify - I am against racism. We certainly need to be looking at the whole issue and taking action, it should not still be going on. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 12:36 - Jul 20 with 545 views | Bazza |
| Gary Neville on 12:02 - Jul 20 by Tinman |
Right at the start let me say racism is deplorable and in fact stupid. We are all of the human race. Also a player doesn't miss a penalty because of his skin colour.
This is rightly an issue that needs addressing but without wishing to defend any politician, I think perhaps they, like many others I have heard from, see a difference between anti-racism and actions in line with BLM.
BLM as a movement wants more than to end racism - and I have yet to meet someone who doesn't want that. However, BLM also want to defund the police and destroy the traditional family unit among other things - apparently all this is right there on their web page. Taking the knee is an action from BLM therefore an action that certain people do not like even if they too are anti-racist.
However, booing someone who stresses a political opinion is a backwards step, so there is that.
I was speaking to a black Nigerian last night who said he was against taking the knee. I know a few other black/coloured people who also dislike it.
I think the thinking is also that maybe many footballers do not realise the deeper/wider political intentions of BLM and are under pressure to kneel. Can you imagine the backlash if someone says 'Although I am fully against racism, I won't kneel due to the wider political inclusions of the BLM movement'? His club would be under pressure not to pick him again, he would be vilified on social media and lose any sponsorship deals - even though he comes out and says he is against racism in the first place.
It doesn't help that we seemed to have lost the ability to sit down and intelligently talk through issues. And to be honest, I have no idea if the PM or Priti Patel are thinking this when they don't denounce booing but then denounce racism - as I said - I'm not here to defend them, or speak for them.
Even thinking about posting here today made me think hard about what the backlash will be just for trying to shed some light on a possible difference in reasoning of being anti-racist but anti-BLM (as political entity). I am hoping that Saints fans can see the subtlety.
So let me clarify - I am against racism. We certainly need to be looking at the whole issue and taking action, it should not still be going on. |
I agree with all your points.
The whole football/racism situation is more complicated than the media headlines lead us to believe. I too hate racism but get criticised on here for trying to assess the reality.
People putting graffiti on the Rashford mural are assumed to be racist. But perhaps they are just frustrated fans of any colour, no one yet knows. Also just happened that the 3 penalty misses were by players 'of colour' (if that is the currently acceptable phrase).
Interesting that it turns out (Sunday Times quote) that the much of the racist comments on our social media originate from foreign web addresses. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 12:37 - Jul 20 with 542 views | stmichael |
For the same reason most teams including Scotland didnt take the knee in the 1st place. It is a political gesture which the players are too stupid to realise and causes division where it was not there in the first place. | |
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| Gary Neville on 13:16 - Jul 20 with 520 views | DorsetIan |
It's not a political gesture in support of BLM. It's a gesture of support for anti-racism. The England players and team explained this very explicitly.
The difficulty I have with all this navel gazing, forever trying to turn this into something it isn't and then oppose it on those grounds, is that ends up with someone being on the same side as the other group who don't like it - the racists.
Simple rule: if genuine people are engaged in an anti-racist stance, support them. | |
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| Gary Neville on 13:36 - Jul 20 with 511 views | Sadoldgit |
| Gary Neville on 13:16 - Jul 20 by DorsetIan |
It's not a political gesture in support of BLM. It's a gesture of support for anti-racism. The England players and team explained this very explicitly.
The difficulty I have with all this navel gazing, forever trying to turn this into something it isn't and then oppose it on those grounds, is that ends up with someone being on the same side as the other group who don't like it - the racists.
Simple rule: if genuine people are engaged in an anti-racist stance, support them. |
Absolutely this. I thought that Southgate along with the England players had made it perfectly clear why they were doing it. Pure and simple it is a gesture from them against racism. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 13:53 - Jul 20 with 505 views | Bazza |
| Gary Neville on 13:16 - Jul 20 by DorsetIan |
It's not a political gesture in support of BLM. It's a gesture of support for anti-racism. The England players and team explained this very explicitly.
The difficulty I have with all this navel gazing, forever trying to turn this into something it isn't and then oppose it on those grounds, is that ends up with someone being on the same side as the other group who don't like it - the racists.
Simple rule: if genuine people are engaged in an anti-racist stance, support them. |
So you support BLM in all its glory, just because racism is one of its targets, surely not?
You are just making a simplistic attempt to deny other viewpoints.
Perhaps this is why you supported Corbyn despite his racism. | | | |
| Gary Neville on 14:07 - Jul 20 with 495 views | Saintsforeverj |
The point here is surely that any player who wants to take the knee can (I fully support that if they think it will make a difference, they can do it), and those who don't want to (the Brentford squad, Zaha, probably others) should be able to make that choice too, without judgement and being labelled racist. Some players / people have their reasons for not wanting to do it, which arn't because they are racist (just read what Zaha says). I'm not saying that a player shouldn't be allowed to do it if they want to, but that they should be allowed to not do it if they don't want to - they shouldn't be forced. | |
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| Gary Neville on 14:31 - Jul 20 with 482 views | Sadoldgit |
| Gary Neville on 14:07 - Jul 20 by Saintsforeverj |
The point here is surely that any player who wants to take the knee can (I fully support that if they think it will make a difference, they can do it), and those who don't want to (the Brentford squad, Zaha, probably others) should be able to make that choice too, without judgement and being labelled racist. Some players / people have their reasons for not wanting to do it, which arn't because they are racist (just read what Zaha says). I'm not saying that a player shouldn't be allowed to do it if they want to, but that they should be allowed to not do it if they don't want to - they shouldn't be forced. |
Out of interest, which members of the England team were forced to do it? Has anyone forced Zaha to do it? Do we have any actual evidence that grown men are made to kneel against their wishes? | | | |
| Gary Neville on 15:17 - Jul 20 with 472 views | Bison |
| Gary Neville on 14:31 - Jul 20 by Sadoldgit |
Out of interest, which members of the England team were forced to do it? Has anyone forced Zaha to do it? Do we have any actual evidence that grown men are made to kneel against their wishes? |
All of them
If one decided not too for any reason they would of been hounded to death.
As I said in a earlier post , when you have no choice you lose the argument.
The likes of Zaha , who I personally hate at a football level after our matches against Crystal Palace , did not take the knee. You cant exactly call him out can you ?
Now imagine if a white player refused .......... think about it ? | |
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| Gary Neville on 16:08 - Jul 20 with 449 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Gary Neville on 14:31 - Jul 20 by Sadoldgit |
Out of interest, which members of the England team were forced to do it? Has anyone forced Zaha to do it? Do we have any actual evidence that grown men are made to kneel against their wishes? |
"Forced" as in strongly encouraged, told you must do it or face accusations of being racist, won't get picked for the team. I don't know if that was the case, it might well be that every England player wanted to do it, who knows. But Zaha made a statement in the press because he felt he had to explain? But here lies the discussion we are having. As I said, if players want to do it, they should be able to, if they don't, they shouldn't have to. If that was said, and nearly every player still did it, that's fine. But certain teams, nations, players making public statements about why they don't think they should do it, suggests they feel they have to explain as if it is taboo. And actually I can find quotes from players that suggest they are told to do it😉 | |
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| Gary Neville on 16:15 - Jul 20 with 445 views | DorsetIan |
| Gary Neville on 14:07 - Jul 20 by Saintsforeverj |
The point here is surely that any player who wants to take the knee can (I fully support that if they think it will make a difference, they can do it), and those who don't want to (the Brentford squad, Zaha, probably others) should be able to make that choice too, without judgement and being labelled racist. Some players / people have their reasons for not wanting to do it, which arn't because they are racist (just read what Zaha says). I'm not saying that a player shouldn't be allowed to do it if they want to, but that they should be allowed to not do it if they don't want to - they shouldn't be forced. |
It might surprise you, but I agree with this.
I don't label anyone who doesn't want to take the knee as racist. It should be a personal choice and given the strength of feeling that was coming out of the England squad, I think it is a personal choice. And if Zaha doesn't agree then he can stance, that's fine.
For what it's worth, I don't label everyone who is booing as racist either. I think many people are just completely misguided and have got themselves so tied up in knots that they are booing their own players' anti-racism protest.
What I object to is (1) people saying that the players are kneeling in support of extremist politics when they are doing no such thing and (2) people then using that as a reason to boo them. | |
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