| Saints' new owner? 18:43 - Apr 28 with 2074 views | dirk_doone |
TIF Thoughts on Southampton’s takeover…
"Southampton fans may be slightly concerned over Lopez’s suitability to take over the Premier League side, considering how things ended in Lille.
According to reports, the 49-year-old borrowed from US creditors JP Morgan and Elliott Management during his tenure and left with the club owing just over half — £107 million (US$150 million) — of the £195.7 million (US$276 million) he acquired."
It sounds like he is only offering half of Gao's asking price for the club. That's all he could borrow after he failed to pay back all of the loan he took out to buy Lille.
On the plus side, Lille were very successful on the pitch when he was owner and still are now.
https://thisisfutbol.com/2021/04/blogs/premier-league/southampton-duncan-castles
What happened at Lille:
https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2020/lille-president-gerard-lopez-on-the-b
[Post edited 28 Apr 2021 19:07]
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| Saints' new owner? on 19:07 - Apr 28 with 2002 views | DorsetIan |
Nobody is going to make any money out of Southampton unless they can help to improve things on the pitch. (Looks like Gao, for example, may have lost half his money). So a new owner's interests are going to align with fans' interests.
Gao has had his chance, he's got no money and we can all see (well most of us can) where things are heading.
It's a choice between a slow lingering death under Gao, or a roll of the dice with someone new.
Roll the dice. |  |
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| Saints' new owner? on 19:10 - Apr 28 with 1998 views | dirk_doone |
| Saints' new owner? on 19:07 - Apr 28 by DorsetIan |
Nobody is going to make any money out of Southampton unless they can help to improve things on the pitch. (Looks like Gao, for example, may have lost half his money). So a new owner's interests are going to align with fans' interests.
Gao has had his chance, he's got no money and we can all see (well most of us can) where things are heading.
It's a choice between a slow lingering death under Gao, or a roll of the dice with someone new.
Roll the dice. |
Yes, while Lille's financial situation is dire, so is ours. Lille, however are having one of the most successful spells in their history and are currently top of the French League.
For all the Pompey Boo Boys' whingeing now about how hard done by they were by their dodgy owner, he splashed out in the transfer market, gave them their most successful spell for 60 years and bought them a trophy. Of course, it was largely done with borrowed money that wouldn't be paid back. [Post edited 29 Apr 2021 9:25]
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| Saints' new owner? on 07:35 - Apr 29 with 1689 views | SaintNick |
| Saints' new owner? on 19:07 - Apr 28 by DorsetIan |
Nobody is going to make any money out of Southampton unless they can help to improve things on the pitch. (Looks like Gao, for example, may have lost half his money). So a new owner's interests are going to align with fans' interests.
Gao has had his chance, he's got no money and we can all see (well most of us can) where things are heading.
It's a choice between a slow lingering death under Gao, or a roll of the dice with someone new.
Roll the dice. |
To say Gao hasn't got any money is untrue, Gao is unable to invest due to China's change of policy to the West, Gao's initial interests was aligned with the fans interests, but sadly things change.
I bang on about this to try and add perspective to those who just blindly say "Gao hasnt got any money" and don't understand what the situation actually is.
So this new guy is offering half of the amount that Gao has invested ie £125m offer when Burnley went for £200 million and left his last club with a shed load of debt borrowed against it, doesn't sound like a better option than Gao.
It doesnt have to be a slow lingering death, the last few years have seen good football and relegation avoided with ease as well as an FA Cup semi final.
We have to be careful what we wish for, some see a good owner as merely being someone who puts his hand in his pocket, but as this Lopez did at Lille and a number have done at Premier League clubs, the money put in is at best a oan and at worst borrowed against the club.
Given what is happening elsewhere in the League both with the top clubs and the likes of Burnley I would take Gao over the latest option.
Of course I would want an owner who has the ability to invest, but football is littered with clubs whose owners have pumped some money in for a wile then demanded it back when they lose interest.
You say roll the dice, but what exactly does that mean, there is no one else in the game, Gao is trying to sell the club what more can he do ?
Before you roll any dice you need to see what is on each side of it |  |
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| Saints' new owner? on 08:43 - Apr 29 with 1634 views | SonicBoom |
Indeed Nick.
There's way more to being a good owner than just bunging loads of money at the first team.
Look at the behaviour of the top 6 owners recently. They all spend massively on their teams but they've certainly revealed their true motivations recently and will no doubt do so again soon.
I'd rather stick with Gao than jump ship to a chancer that bought a club then left leaving debts and now is trying to borrow money to buy us.
Also as most of the experts seem to say, serious people do business quietly behind closed doors and the first we hear if it is when it's done. Those who broadcast their intentions through the press are usually full of it. |  | | |
| Saints' new owner? on 09:05 - Apr 29 with 1617 views | SaintNick |
| Saints' new owner? on 08:43 - Apr 29 by SonicBoom |
Indeed Nick.
There's way more to being a good owner than just bunging loads of money at the first team.
Look at the behaviour of the top 6 owners recently. They all spend massively on their teams but they've certainly revealed their true motivations recently and will no doubt do so again soon.
I'd rather stick with Gao than jump ship to a chancer that bought a club then left leaving debts and now is trying to borrow money to buy us.
Also as most of the experts seem to say, serious people do business quietly behind closed doors and the first we hear if it is when it's done. Those who broadcast their intentions through the press are usually full of it. |
Spot on, Gao could have done a lot of things to this club to get his money back, the fact that he seems unwilling to sell to the first chancer that comes along suggests that his intentins have always been honourable but circumstance has intervened. | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Saints' new owner? on 09:33 - Apr 29 with 1579 views | saints__fan__73 |
| Saints' new owner? on 07:35 - Apr 29 by SaintNick |
To say Gao hasn't got any money is untrue, Gao is unable to invest due to China's change of policy to the West, Gao's initial interests was aligned with the fans interests, but sadly things change.
I bang on about this to try and add perspective to those who just blindly say "Gao hasnt got any money" and don't understand what the situation actually is.
So this new guy is offering half of the amount that Gao has invested ie £125m offer when Burnley went for £200 million and left his last club with a shed load of debt borrowed against it, doesn't sound like a better option than Gao.
It doesnt have to be a slow lingering death, the last few years have seen good football and relegation avoided with ease as well as an FA Cup semi final.
We have to be careful what we wish for, some see a good owner as merely being someone who puts his hand in his pocket, but as this Lopez did at Lille and a number have done at Premier League clubs, the money put in is at best a oan and at worst borrowed against the club.
Given what is happening elsewhere in the League both with the top clubs and the likes of Burnley I would take Gao over the latest option.
Of course I would want an owner who has the ability to invest, but football is littered with clubs whose owners have pumped some money in for a wile then demanded it back when they lose interest.
You say roll the dice, but what exactly does that mean, there is no one else in the game, Gao is trying to sell the club what more can he do ?
Before you roll any dice you need to see what is on each side of it |
Why do you think Gao has got any money? He had to take out personal loans to buy the club. I'm sure he's not queuing at the food bank but to think he's got any sizeable amount of cash he could 'invest' is laughable.
Like Fat Kat before him he is banking on the continual price increase of PL clubs so he can sell up and make his own personal fortune from this. |  |
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| Saints' new owner? on 09:50 - Apr 29 with 1561 views | DorsetIan |
| Saints' new owner? on 07:35 - Apr 29 by SaintNick |
To say Gao hasn't got any money is untrue, Gao is unable to invest due to China's change of policy to the West, Gao's initial interests was aligned with the fans interests, but sadly things change.
I bang on about this to try and add perspective to those who just blindly say "Gao hasnt got any money" and don't understand what the situation actually is.
So this new guy is offering half of the amount that Gao has invested ie £125m offer when Burnley went for £200 million and left his last club with a shed load of debt borrowed against it, doesn't sound like a better option than Gao.
It doesnt have to be a slow lingering death, the last few years have seen good football and relegation avoided with ease as well as an FA Cup semi final.
We have to be careful what we wish for, some see a good owner as merely being someone who puts his hand in his pocket, but as this Lopez did at Lille and a number have done at Premier League clubs, the money put in is at best a oan and at worst borrowed against the club.
Given what is happening elsewhere in the League both with the top clubs and the likes of Burnley I would take Gao over the latest option.
Of course I would want an owner who has the ability to invest, but football is littered with clubs whose owners have pumped some money in for a wile then demanded it back when they lose interest.
You say roll the dice, but what exactly does that mean, there is no one else in the game, Gao is trying to sell the club what more can he do ?
Before you roll any dice you need to see what is on each side of it |
Others on here have posted previously about the state of his finances in China. Do you know that Gao has money? If so, can you confirm precisely how much? And can you confirm how much of that he would be investing in Saints were it not for the Chinese block?
When I use the phrase 'Gao has no money', I am using it pretty broadly. I am happy to rephrase that as 'Gao cannot invest' if you would prefer. Either way the bottom line is that he is not an owner who seems to be able to invest in Saints. To that extent he is not fit for purpose as a Premier League owner.
You say that it doesn't have to be a slow lingering death, but that's what I see at the moment. We can disagree on this, but I don't think that this is a particularly controversial view, given our appalling form this year and the steady weakening of our squad.
And when I say 'roll the dice' I mean that we are going to have to take a chance on another owner. To a greater or lesser extent they're all pretty dodgy, and all in it for their own financial gain or prestige, and maybe the next one will be worse than this one.
But sometimes you just have to conclude that a change is needed. Because we have not moved 'to the next level' with this owner and if he can't invest, I really don't see how that is going to change for the better. | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 10:37 - Apr 29 with 1522 views | PaleRider |
A quick question: Since Gao has owned Saints how much has he invested directly into the club? | | | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 10:45 - Apr 29 with 1512 views | SaintNick |
| Saints' new owner? on 09:50 - Apr 29 by DorsetIan |
Others on here have posted previously about the state of his finances in China. Do you know that Gao has money? If so, can you confirm precisely how much? And can you confirm how much of that he would be investing in Saints were it not for the Chinese block?
When I use the phrase 'Gao has no money', I am using it pretty broadly. I am happy to rephrase that as 'Gao cannot invest' if you would prefer. Either way the bottom line is that he is not an owner who seems to be able to invest in Saints. To that extent he is not fit for purpose as a Premier League owner.
You say that it doesn't have to be a slow lingering death, but that's what I see at the moment. We can disagree on this, but I don't think that this is a particularly controversial view, given our appalling form this year and the steady weakening of our squad.
And when I say 'roll the dice' I mean that we are going to have to take a chance on another owner. To a greater or lesser extent they're all pretty dodgy, and all in it for their own financial gain or prestige, and maybe the next one will be worse than this one.
But sometimes you just have to conclude that a change is needed. Because we have not moved 'to the next level' with this owner and if he can't invest, I really don't see how that is going to change for the better. |
I do not know how much money Gao has and nor does anyone for that matter, all we know is he is prevented from investing due to the Chinese Governents policy.
You seem to think that the main criteria for a Premier League owner being fit for purpose is being able to invest.
How many owners actually invest and how many leverage the club or at best loan the money to the club either as a loan or via a share issue etc.
The lingering death view is a little dramatic, if we were sat in this position and had got the points averaged over the season instead of a big chunk in the first half and got to a semi final then no one would be saying lingering.
Indeed even in the last couple of months a little better luck and the odd var call our way would have seen possibly the best season ever.
For some everything is back and white, but life and football isn't like that.
The squad isn't weakening, it is stronger than a year ago it has just been wracked by injuries.
What is the next level ? a new owner and money don't guarantee success, when you gamble it has to be calculated, outside of the Big Six and Leicester and the bottom 3 at the moment, most of the rest of us are on the same level, it can go up and down.
Everton have shown that £100 million in transfers every year doesn't get you to the next level, Villa have spent £92 million last summer and it has not taken them up much, good business that is, spent £92 million to get an extra £12 million in premier league place money .
Some have lost sight in what can actually be achieved in the Premier League these days | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Saints' new owner? on 11:33 - Apr 29 with 1473 views | DorsetIan |
| Saints' new owner? on 10:45 - Apr 29 by SaintNick |
I do not know how much money Gao has and nor does anyone for that matter, all we know is he is prevented from investing due to the Chinese Governents policy.
You seem to think that the main criteria for a Premier League owner being fit for purpose is being able to invest.
How many owners actually invest and how many leverage the club or at best loan the money to the club either as a loan or via a share issue etc.
The lingering death view is a little dramatic, if we were sat in this position and had got the points averaged over the season instead of a big chunk in the first half and got to a semi final then no one would be saying lingering.
Indeed even in the last couple of months a little better luck and the odd var call our way would have seen possibly the best season ever.
For some everything is back and white, but life and football isn't like that.
The squad isn't weakening, it is stronger than a year ago it has just been wracked by injuries.
What is the next level ? a new owner and money don't guarantee success, when you gamble it has to be calculated, outside of the Big Six and Leicester and the bottom 3 at the moment, most of the rest of us are on the same level, it can go up and down.
Everton have shown that £100 million in transfers every year doesn't get you to the next level, Villa have spent £92 million last summer and it has not taken them up much, good business that is, spent £92 million to get an extra £12 million in premier league place money .
Some have lost sight in what can actually be achieved in the Premier League these days |
You criticise for me for saying that 'Gao has no money' and yet you cannot confirm that he has any. You're making a pretty big assumption to think that he had money that can't bring in.
We can agree that he hasn't invested.
No owner is simply going to give money to a club. In fact no business owner is going to give money to their business. Every injection of funds is going to be in exchange for new shares or be by way of a loan. The issue is that you've got to have access to the money to be able to do either of those things. Gao doesn't have that, so he is forced to borrow at extremely high rates. Not fit for purpose.
We didn't get the points averaged over a season, we have fallen off a cliff. It's great that you are an optimist but the reality is that in 2021 the chickens have come home to roost a little in terms of the quality/depth of our squad and (coupled with Ralph's tactically inadequacies) we are in obvious decline.
We will survive this season, but where are the things to be hopeful about? There are so many positions that we need to strengthen, so many of our better players the subject of departure speculation, so few of our recent purchases showing very much, so few of our academy players showing very much, so little from our loanees.
There seems to be a consensus that a major shake up/re-build is needed. How is that going to happen without some investment for transfers? Is China going to lift it's embargo? Is Gao going to win the Euromillions? | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 11:37 - Apr 29 with 1472 views | DorsetIan |
| Saints' new owner? on 10:37 - Apr 29 by PaleRider |
A quick question: Since Gao has owned Saints how much has he invested directly into the club? |
It's a difficult question.
Need to look at issued share capital, company lenders, and then consider exchange rates, international accounting standards and offshore transfer pricing regs.
But when you do that, and make a few assumptions, I think it works out at approximately the square root of f*ck all. | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 12:10 - Apr 29 with 1442 views | SonicBoom |
I think when Gao started the process of buying the club the Chinese government were encouraging Chinese businesses to invest in the west.
So the Chinese were buying teams like us and Wolves etc.
They were also bringing western players to their league for frankly ridiculous money. Pelle is a decent player but he's not worth 270 grand a week is he!
Then the Chinese changed tack. They reversed these strategies. For a start they've stopped importing these foreign players and paying those wages. Consequently those players are all trying to come back the other way now.
New restrictions also prevent investment in western businesses including football in order to keep the money within their own borders.
My understanding was that Gao was buying the club but during the process he was suddenly unable to use his chinese money to do it. Rather than abandon it, he used it as security to borrow money in the west to complete the sale. So broadly speaking he's good for the loans, but unable to shift his bullion outside of China.
I guess he wants to sell now as he can't grow the club as he maybe intended so there is little point is just being the custodian.
I don't think this makes him a bad guy and he certainly hasn't stripped the club. I think he was a victim of circumstance and timing.
I still think we need to be wary of gobby blowhards telling all and sundry they want to buy the club. There is an easy way to do that. Meet the owner, meet the asking price and boom, you have a club. If you have the means that seems pretty straightforward.
Anyway that's just my understanding of Gao's situation gleaned from the stories over time. | | | |
| Saints' new owner? on 12:17 - Apr 29 with 1430 views | saints__fan__73 |
As an aside, does even Nick still actually believe that LD Sports existed?  | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 12:18 - Apr 29 with 1421 views | SaintNick |
| Saints' new owner? on 11:33 - Apr 29 by DorsetIan |
You criticise for me for saying that 'Gao has no money' and yet you cannot confirm that he has any. You're making a pretty big assumption to think that he had money that can't bring in.
We can agree that he hasn't invested.
No owner is simply going to give money to a club. In fact no business owner is going to give money to their business. Every injection of funds is going to be in exchange for new shares or be by way of a loan. The issue is that you've got to have access to the money to be able to do either of those things. Gao doesn't have that, so he is forced to borrow at extremely high rates. Not fit for purpose.
We didn't get the points averaged over a season, we have fallen off a cliff. It's great that you are an optimist but the reality is that in 2021 the chickens have come home to roost a little in terms of the quality/depth of our squad and (coupled with Ralph's tactically inadequacies) we are in obvious decline.
We will survive this season, but where are the things to be hopeful about? There are so many positions that we need to strengthen, so many of our better players the subject of departure speculation, so few of our recent purchases showing very much, so few of our academy players showing very much, so little from our loanees.
There seems to be a consensus that a major shake up/re-build is needed. How is that going to happen without some investment for transfers? Is China going to lift it's embargo? Is Gao going to win the Euromillions? |
I cant confirm whether he has or not , although in the link that Dirk put on here it was claimed "Gao was asking for around £250m, basically wanted to take the money he put into the club and get back out without making a loss"
If that is true then it seems that he has invested around £40 million on top of the amount he paid for the club.
You seem to realise how football club ownership works, which it seems a lot of people dont, you say Gao has more issues than just having the money, Gao could be the richest man in China but he is high risk because of the volatile situation between east and west , in truth our rates arent much different to those that most other football clubs have borrowed at.
You keep saying not fit for purpose, so the ability of the owner to leverage large amounts of debt, not to himself but to the club is a criteria for being fit for purpose !!!!
The issue here is finding a new owner not getting rid of the old one.
As for the football side of things it is all about opinion and if the luck had fallen our way at Wembley and a wayward shot had hit one of their defenders and rebounded back to Danny Ings instead of the other way around,then you would not be able to have a leg to stand on in claiming we were going backwards, thats football for you if Sheffield United had not had a perfectly good goal disallowed at Villa last season then Villa would have gone down and Bournemouth stayed up.
The depth of our squad was stretched last season and that led to our problems not a lack of quality.
I would hate to be on a plane with you, your seem to have a glass that is permanently half empty, how many of our better players are actually subject to transfer speculation ? I make it two, and that is media driven speculation nothing else so little from our loanees ? Walcott was fine before injury and Minamino has scored twice but doesn't seem to fit our plans.
The academy is still producing players, Obafemi, Smallbone, Tella all have played well at this level and Jankewitz is highly rated as is Watts.
These is a shake up needed but that shake up needs to be evolving we only have so much in the budget and we are hampered with half a dozen poor signings having to be paid for wage wise still.
Who says there wont be investment for transfers ?
I am not disagreeing with you that there needs to be a change of owner, but it should not be change for changes sake, it has to be better | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Saints' new owner? on 15:22 - Apr 29 with 1315 views | DorsetIan |
| Saints' new owner? on 12:18 - Apr 29 by SaintNick |
I cant confirm whether he has or not , although in the link that Dirk put on here it was claimed "Gao was asking for around £250m, basically wanted to take the money he put into the club and get back out without making a loss"
If that is true then it seems that he has invested around £40 million on top of the amount he paid for the club.
You seem to realise how football club ownership works, which it seems a lot of people dont, you say Gao has more issues than just having the money, Gao could be the richest man in China but he is high risk because of the volatile situation between east and west , in truth our rates arent much different to those that most other football clubs have borrowed at.
You keep saying not fit for purpose, so the ability of the owner to leverage large amounts of debt, not to himself but to the club is a criteria for being fit for purpose !!!!
The issue here is finding a new owner not getting rid of the old one.
As for the football side of things it is all about opinion and if the luck had fallen our way at Wembley and a wayward shot had hit one of their defenders and rebounded back to Danny Ings instead of the other way around,then you would not be able to have a leg to stand on in claiming we were going backwards, thats football for you if Sheffield United had not had a perfectly good goal disallowed at Villa last season then Villa would have gone down and Bournemouth stayed up.
The depth of our squad was stretched last season and that led to our problems not a lack of quality.
I would hate to be on a plane with you, your seem to have a glass that is permanently half empty, how many of our better players are actually subject to transfer speculation ? I make it two, and that is media driven speculation nothing else so little from our loanees ? Walcott was fine before injury and Minamino has scored twice but doesn't seem to fit our plans.
The academy is still producing players, Obafemi, Smallbone, Tella all have played well at this level and Jankewitz is highly rated as is Watts.
These is a shake up needed but that shake up needs to be evolving we only have so much in the budget and we are hampered with half a dozen poor signings having to be paid for wage wise still.
Who says there wont be investment for transfers ?
I am not disagreeing with you that there needs to be a change of owner, but it should not be change for changes sake, it has to be better |
How are we going to pay for transfers if Gao can't provide any funds? We've been here before in previous transfer windows and we know how it goes.
The club's accounts show no evidence of Gao having 'put in' £40m (unless in the last few months). Just like you can't assume he has money, you can't assume this either.
As it happens, I'm generally an optimistic person and I try to see the positives where I can. But this nonsense with Saints has been going on too long now and we are now 'drifting into the arena of the unwell'.
Home truths are needed, not rose coloured spectacles. | |
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| Saints' new owner? on 16:59 - Apr 29 with 1260 views | saint22 |
| Saints' new owner? on 12:17 - Apr 29 by saints__fan__73 |
As an aside, does even Nick still actually believe that LD Sports existed? |
Dear god that whole debacle was sh1t show of epic proportions
Cringeworthy | | | |
| Saints' new owner? on 17:26 - Apr 29 with 1246 views | Kennington |
I’m judging Gao on the results on the pitch, and for that reason he’s just got to leave. Of course he was practically never in the city anyway as he rarely bothered coming to games. He also never told the fans what the ambitions were, as he didn’t have any and seemingly hasn’t invested much if anything of his own funds into the club. It’s almost got to the stage of anyone but Gao. Imagine buying any business and particularly a volatile one like football and just letting your asset stagnate. A truly awful owner. And before someone says but he’s not as bad as “insert any number of terrible owners names” that’s not a reason for Gao to stay. [Post edited 29 Apr 2021 17:38]
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| Saints' new owner? on 07:42 - Apr 30 with 1053 views | Berber |
When the Glaziers took over Man Utd, they borrowed heavily, then once they had control, coverted that debt to a club loan, so the risk was all on the club not themselves. Meanwhile, they were charging the club huge management fees and paying themselves big dividends. I don't think the rules in the UK have changed. I don't know if the same is possible in France or Italy for example. It appears that this is the de facto method used by USA owners, which is how they are able to claim to be able to make money out of sporting franchises. It isn't about the sport, all about how they can get their hands on cash.
Expect something similar if we get taken over. |  | | |
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