| This is Brexit on 22:30 - Mar 20 with 1983 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 22:02 - Mar 20 by dirk_doone |
I am proud to be British and that includes all of it. The EU was good for the UK and that's why I wanted us to stay in it and why our enemies, including the Russians, didn't. I remember Brexiteers calling everyone who disagreed with them traitors. Trying to bully everybody in the country into agreeing with your views is anything but patriotic in a country where we value freedom of speech. That's what Hitler and Stalin did. They silenced sensible dissenting views.
Being in favour of the EU does not mean you hate the UK. It means you value a policy of peaceful cooperation between countries, rather than one of isolationism, as isolationism has never been particularly beneficial to any country. [Post edited 20 Mar 2021 22:31]
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You’re wrong on so many points particularly saying what Brexit people think. Comparing anyone’s political view to Stalin and Hitler is pathetic nonsense.
I would think the disgraceful vaccine fantasies of the EU leaders should at least show you the typical behaviour of the bullying German and French leaders that has consistently tarnished any good intentions of the EU ( and it’s predecessors). |  | |  |
| This is Brexit on 16:46 - Mar 21 with 1883 views | Berber |
| This is Brexit on 22:02 - Mar 20 by dirk_doone |
I am proud to be British and that includes all of it. The EU was good for the UK and that's why I wanted us to stay in it and why our enemies, including the Russians, didn't. I remember Brexiteers calling everyone who disagreed with them traitors. Trying to bully everybody in the country into agreeing with your views is anything but patriotic in a country where we value freedom of speech. That's what Hitler and Stalin did. They silenced sensible dissenting views.
Being in favour of the EU does not mean you hate the UK. It means you value a policy of peaceful cooperation between countries, rather than one of isolationism, as isolationism has never been particularly beneficial to any country. [Post edited 20 Mar 2021 22:31]
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Putting all who supported Brexit into the same basket as extremists who cannot tolerate contra views, which you appear to do in your second sentence isn't much better than denying their reasonable beliefs that Britain would be better off (in total) out of the EU. As expressed elsewhere, I voted to remain, but now the deed is done, I don't have any problems either with the democratic vote or placing our sovereignty at the top of the priority list. Not to say cooperation isn't a good thing, but the EU seems to want to legalise everything. Their Covid shenanigans show that they don't have problems using their muscle and changes to the law to suit themselves as a threat over the negotiation table. Frankly, I don't think we need the kind of "cooperation" where these kinds of moves are made before any request to discuss the issues under consideration.
The people calling the shots in the EU were never voted in by any poll of the citizens of any of the states in the EU and there is no clear pathway to changing that. The EU itself accepts and demands that national sovereignty will be foregone in order that the EU can function "effectively". That is what EU cooperation means. Von de Leyen's vainglorious grabbing of the Covid vaccination agenda shows the fallacy that EU cooperation is best for everyone. Not for me. |  | | |
| This is Brexit on 06:33 - Mar 23 with 1784 views | saint22 |
| This is Brexit on 16:46 - Mar 21 by Berber |
Putting all who supported Brexit into the same basket as extremists who cannot tolerate contra views, which you appear to do in your second sentence isn't much better than denying their reasonable beliefs that Britain would be better off (in total) out of the EU. As expressed elsewhere, I voted to remain, but now the deed is done, I don't have any problems either with the democratic vote or placing our sovereignty at the top of the priority list. Not to say cooperation isn't a good thing, but the EU seems to want to legalise everything. Their Covid shenanigans show that they don't have problems using their muscle and changes to the law to suit themselves as a threat over the negotiation table. Frankly, I don't think we need the kind of "cooperation" where these kinds of moves are made before any request to discuss the issues under consideration.
The people calling the shots in the EU were never voted in by any poll of the citizens of any of the states in the EU and there is no clear pathway to changing that. The EU itself accepts and demands that national sovereignty will be foregone in order that the EU can function "effectively". That is what EU cooperation means. Von de Leyen's vainglorious grabbing of the Covid vaccination agenda shows the fallacy that EU cooperation is best for everyone. Not for me. |
Looking good this is
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/22/data-shows-collapse-of-uk-food- | | | |
| This is Brexit on 16:59 - Mar 26 with 1685 views | saint22 |
| This is Brexit on 16:46 - Mar 21 by Berber |
Putting all who supported Brexit into the same basket as extremists who cannot tolerate contra views, which you appear to do in your second sentence isn't much better than denying their reasonable beliefs that Britain would be better off (in total) out of the EU. As expressed elsewhere, I voted to remain, but now the deed is done, I don't have any problems either with the democratic vote or placing our sovereignty at the top of the priority list. Not to say cooperation isn't a good thing, but the EU seems to want to legalise everything. Their Covid shenanigans show that they don't have problems using their muscle and changes to the law to suit themselves as a threat over the negotiation table. Frankly, I don't think we need the kind of "cooperation" where these kinds of moves are made before any request to discuss the issues under consideration.
The people calling the shots in the EU were never voted in by any poll of the citizens of any of the states in the EU and there is no clear pathway to changing that. The EU itself accepts and demands that national sovereignty will be foregone in order that the EU can function "effectively". That is what EU cooperation means. Von de Leyen's vainglorious grabbing of the Covid vaccination agenda shows the fallacy that EU cooperation is best for everyone. Not for me. |
Thanks Dave
https://london.eater.com/2021/3/24/22348477/brexit-food-supply-cheese-chocolate- | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:07 - Mar 26 with 1660 views | Berber |
I see that now von Leyen is stating that the EU has exported over 70m doses of vaccine - which is true. But to go on and compare that to what others have exported is spurious. For one thing, the companies making the vaccines in Belgium and Netherlands are multinational organisations operating to normal commercial contracts, and are not "owned" by either the EU or by any of the member countries. The vaccine producers operating in Belgium and The Netherlands have almost certainly been enticed to set up there with favourable investment terms or tax breaks for either the companies or their overseas executives. It has been going on for decades, and has only changed in form, not principle as the laws have tightened to prevent the distorted competition environment that this creates. Hence the Belgian and Netherlands governments being reluctant to agree export blockades, because it blows holes in their selfish economic strategies and the promises and agreements made with these commercial enterprises.
Much the same as Eire still gives 10% corporate tax rates to the multinationals that set up in its remote areas to bring unemployment to the poorer regions, and selling products mainly into the UK for the UK market.
The French Foreign Minister mouthing off about "We will not let the UK blackmail us regarding their need for second doses." is typical Franco windbaggery. How is it possible for the UK to blackmail them on this? The EU used to be the global leading proponent of free trade. What a farce their administrative bungling has led them into. Blocking the use of vaccines that they claim they desperately need, France first banning the use of the AZ vaccine for over 65s, then reversing that so that it can only be used for over 65s, all based on unsubstantiated rumours. Meanwhile, EU wide, they still haven't used the stocks of AZ vaccine issued to them, yet claiming that it is the suppliers fault that their bungled vaccination programmes are so feeble.
Von Leyen stating that AZ must first honour its contracts to the EU before further exports are allowed is a blatant denial of the contract they made that only requires AZ to use best efforts for the first 120m that were targeted for Q1 2021. If the EU negotiators were not so useless as to agree a contract that precludes them suing AZ over this matter, it would easily be proven in court that they don't have a leg to stand on.
This political idiocy is going to lead them into confrontations that are legally untenable (though they will claim political victories) whilst the unelected officials that are in charge continue to take their eye watering salaries and expense allowances, pointing the blame everywhere except at themselves, and the citizens of EU members will continue to die from Covid19 infections. It is a disgrace.
Incidentally, the "selfish" UK has committed four times the amount of cash to the Covaid initiative as the entire EU block. No doubt the French will see that as further proof of our wish to deny them a fair share of the vaccines.
Is it just me?
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| This is Brexit on 18:40 - Mar 26 with 1647 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 18:07 - Mar 26 by Berber |
I see that now von Leyen is stating that the EU has exported over 70m doses of vaccine - which is true. But to go on and compare that to what others have exported is spurious. For one thing, the companies making the vaccines in Belgium and Netherlands are multinational organisations operating to normal commercial contracts, and are not "owned" by either the EU or by any of the member countries. The vaccine producers operating in Belgium and The Netherlands have almost certainly been enticed to set up there with favourable investment terms or tax breaks for either the companies or their overseas executives. It has been going on for decades, and has only changed in form, not principle as the laws have tightened to prevent the distorted competition environment that this creates. Hence the Belgian and Netherlands governments being reluctant to agree export blockades, because it blows holes in their selfish economic strategies and the promises and agreements made with these commercial enterprises.
Much the same as Eire still gives 10% corporate tax rates to the multinationals that set up in its remote areas to bring unemployment to the poorer regions, and selling products mainly into the UK for the UK market.
The French Foreign Minister mouthing off about "We will not let the UK blackmail us regarding their need for second doses." is typical Franco windbaggery. How is it possible for the UK to blackmail them on this? The EU used to be the global leading proponent of free trade. What a farce their administrative bungling has led them into. Blocking the use of vaccines that they claim they desperately need, France first banning the use of the AZ vaccine for over 65s, then reversing that so that it can only be used for over 65s, all based on unsubstantiated rumours. Meanwhile, EU wide, they still haven't used the stocks of AZ vaccine issued to them, yet claiming that it is the suppliers fault that their bungled vaccination programmes are so feeble.
Von Leyen stating that AZ must first honour its contracts to the EU before further exports are allowed is a blatant denial of the contract they made that only requires AZ to use best efforts for the first 120m that were targeted for Q1 2021. If the EU negotiators were not so useless as to agree a contract that precludes them suing AZ over this matter, it would easily be proven in court that they don't have a leg to stand on.
This political idiocy is going to lead them into confrontations that are legally untenable (though they will claim political victories) whilst the unelected officials that are in charge continue to take their eye watering salaries and expense allowances, pointing the blame everywhere except at themselves, and the citizens of EU members will continue to die from Covid19 infections. It is a disgrace.
Incidentally, the "selfish" UK has committed four times the amount of cash to the Covaid initiative as the entire EU block. No doubt the French will see that as further proof of our wish to deny them a fair share of the vaccines.
Is it just me?
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So by admitting you voting remain you're admitting you were wrong? |  | | |
| This is Brexit on 19:25 - Mar 26 with 1624 views | JaySaint |
The EU performance on vaccines is disgraceful. Thankfully, we never signed up to their programme (which was derided by the usual loud-mouths) | |
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| This is Brexit on 15:16 - Mar 27 with 1560 views | Berber |
| This is Brexit on 18:40 - Mar 26 by grumpy |
So by admitting you voting remain you're admitting you were wrong? |
Not at all, if we had the vote again, I'd still vote to remain, on balance, always hoping that it would be possible to realign it from within. But the EU is seriously firked up and not working the way it was set out to do. Sadly, the Eurosceptics, whom I have very little in common with are right when they describe it as a failing institution. Trying to create a Euro state may well happen, but the only winners will be the politicians and their coterie.
Attacking corruption (the EU auditors have not had signed off the accounts for over a decade, due to the billions of unaccounted for cash paid out) and incompetence (Covid Vaccinations a case in point) are not the same as not wanting the EU to be successful.
I do however respect the democratic process that allows us as individuals to vote and have a direct influence of the direction of our nation rather than a regional caucus within the EU where the true sovereignty will lie. | | | |
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| This is Brexit on 16:16 - Mar 27 with 1538 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 15:16 - Mar 27 by Berber |
Not at all, if we had the vote again, I'd still vote to remain, on balance, always hoping that it would be possible to realign it from within. But the EU is seriously firked up and not working the way it was set out to do. Sadly, the Eurosceptics, whom I have very little in common with are right when they describe it as a failing institution. Trying to create a Euro state may well happen, but the only winners will be the politicians and their coterie.
Attacking corruption (the EU auditors have not had signed off the accounts for over a decade, due to the billions of unaccounted for cash paid out) and incompetence (Covid Vaccinations a case in point) are not the same as not wanting the EU to be successful.
I do however respect the democratic process that allows us as individuals to vote and have a direct influence of the direction of our nation rather than a regional caucus within the EU where the true sovereignty will lie. |
Very interesting Berber, I voted leave pretty much because of all the points you’ve mentioned. Plus the EUs continual drift towards a mega political state and losing sight of the original well intentioned Common market and addition of further countries despite their disputable qualifications for EU entry. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 17:17 - Mar 27 with 1520 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 15:16 - Mar 27 by Berber |
Not at all, if we had the vote again, I'd still vote to remain, on balance, always hoping that it would be possible to realign it from within. But the EU is seriously firked up and not working the way it was set out to do. Sadly, the Eurosceptics, whom I have very little in common with are right when they describe it as a failing institution. Trying to create a Euro state may well happen, but the only winners will be the politicians and their coterie.
Attacking corruption (the EU auditors have not had signed off the accounts for over a decade, due to the billions of unaccounted for cash paid out) and incompetence (Covid Vaccinations a case in point) are not the same as not wanting the EU to be successful.
I do however respect the democratic process that allows us as individuals to vote and have a direct influence of the direction of our nation rather than a regional caucus within the EU where the true sovereignty will lie. |
How does our democratic process work when Government whips go round their MPs saying you must tow the party line regardless of your view?
What's your view on the House of Lords?
Who voted for them and how much do they cost? [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 17:19]
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| This is Brexit on 18:23 - Mar 27 with 1492 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 17:17 - Mar 27 by grumpy |
How does our democratic process work when Government whips go round their MPs saying you must tow the party line regardless of your view?
What's your view on the House of Lords?
Who voted for them and how much do they cost? [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 17:19]
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The whips on both sides seek to maximise their votes and often there are rebel MPs voting against their party lines.
House of Lords needs a complete overhaul. Lords are mostly proposed by party leaders so include cronies, failed MPs and part donors, add in hereditary peers still numbering about 80 and bishops. So MPs losing their seats, union leaders etc All initiatives to change have stumbled upon time wasting tactics of those resistant to change. In my view should be halved in numbers.
As far as cost - significant. Average expenses are £10000 per and more for hereditaries.
Totally unfit for modern world. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Mar 27 with 1470 views | Berber |
| This is Brexit on 17:17 - Mar 27 by grumpy |
How does our democratic process work when Government whips go round their MPs saying you must tow the party line regardless of your view?
What's your view on the House of Lords?
Who voted for them and how much do they cost? [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 17:19]
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But we get to change our MPs at general elections. The whipping process applies to all parties in government. Nothing is perfect.
House of Lords is a travesty that should have been corrected when Nick Clegg tried to get it done (not that I was a fan of his). But these are all things that we as voters can lobby our MPs, and vote for someone else if they act differently. However, there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite for this with the UK general populace. If I am in the minority, then the majority view should pertain. The point is, that in the current EU direction, the voter is getting further and further away from the exercise of power.
What is your view? | | | |
| This is Brexit on 20:57 - Mar 27 with 1432 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Mar 27 by Berber |
But we get to change our MPs at general elections. The whipping process applies to all parties in government. Nothing is perfect.
House of Lords is a travesty that should have been corrected when Nick Clegg tried to get it done (not that I was a fan of his). But these are all things that we as voters can lobby our MPs, and vote for someone else if they act differently. However, there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite for this with the UK general populace. If I am in the minority, then the majority view should pertain. The point is, that in the current EU direction, the voter is getting further and further away from the exercise of power.
What is your view? |
I didn't say any particular party.
'these are all things that we as voters can lobby our MPs, and vote for someone else if they act differently'
What's the point of that if the same happens? ie the whips tell them to tow the party line or else. What happens with a government in power with an 80 odd seat majority?
The EU is far from perfect but nor are we.
I believed in its concept and that it could be a force for peace in Europe.
The EU is stronger with us and we with them. [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 21:17]
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| This is Brexit on 21:33 - Mar 27 with 1420 views | Butty101 |
| This is Brexit on 22:29 - Mar 20 by dirk_doone |
As the country you are currently inhabiting is Alcoholand, I won't hold it against you. Tomorrow morning you probably won't even remember what you posted on here.
Good night, Bison. What a great win it was for Saints today. |
Dirk you are one odd fella |  |
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| This is Brexit on 12:15 - Mar 28 with 1335 views | DorsetIan |
I'm not sure that the general population is that interested in 'democracy' any more.
Lot's of apparent interest in 'taking back control' but voted against electoral reform in 2011 referendum, doesn't seem to care too much about cronyism, seems happy to elect known liars or let unelected people be in charge of important government stuff (e.g. Cummings, Lord Frost). | |
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| This is Brexit on 12:47 - Mar 28 with 1325 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 12:05 - Mar 28 by Berber |
I can't say I disagree with any of that. I wasn't suggesting any political bias by the way.  |
I sometimes think they way politics is in this country is flawed.
Tory's say one thing the Labour Party says another and so it goes on.
At least Starmer has made some effort to show a united front and that couldn't have been easy. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 19:25 - Mar 28 with 1275 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 12:47 - Mar 28 by grumpy |
I sometimes think they way politics is in this country is flawed.
Tory's say one thing the Labour Party says another and so it goes on.
At least Starmer has made some effort to show a united front and that couldn't have been easy. |
You’re right, and there’s rumoured to be a Starmer reshuffle this week | | | |
| This is Brexit on 20:35 - Mar 28 with 1247 views | kernow |
If we had genuine democracy then perhaps the general population might be more interested. At least those that know what it is.
In practice, democracy as a system that represents the will of the majority means that the minority are unrepresented, ignored and irrelevant. Not so good if you're in the minority.
In consolation, at least you're not persecuted for your minority views in this democracy.
However, if democracy ever threatens the ruling elite we can all see for ourselves what happens. Folk disappear, get poisoned, shot down in the streets, imprisoned and tortured.
We are lucky. We are acquiescent. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 22:22 - Mar 28 with 1217 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 20:35 - Mar 28 by kernow |
If we had genuine democracy then perhaps the general population might be more interested. At least those that know what it is.
In practice, democracy as a system that represents the will of the majority means that the minority are unrepresented, ignored and irrelevant. Not so good if you're in the minority.
In consolation, at least you're not persecuted for your minority views in this democracy.
However, if democracy ever threatens the ruling elite we can all see for ourselves what happens. Folk disappear, get poisoned, shot down in the streets, imprisoned and tortured.
We are lucky. We are acquiescent. |
Proportional representation was voted on in 2011 but rejected by 2:1 | | | |
| This is Brexit on 23:35 - Mar 28 with 1193 views | dirk_doone |
| This is Brexit on 20:35 - Mar 28 by kernow |
If we had genuine democracy then perhaps the general population might be more interested. At least those that know what it is.
In practice, democracy as a system that represents the will of the majority means that the minority are unrepresented, ignored and irrelevant. Not so good if you're in the minority.
In consolation, at least you're not persecuted for your minority views in this democracy.
However, if democracy ever threatens the ruling elite we can all see for ourselves what happens. Folk disappear, get poisoned, shot down in the streets, imprisoned and tortured.
We are lucky. We are acquiescent. |
Especially if you are in a minority of 49%. The way our democracy operates means that whoever is in power, half the country is unhappy about it. Proportional representation would be less divisive.
When we are at war and it really matters, we have a government of national unity which everyone can get behind. I would be in favour of that as I don't support any one party: I just want whatever works best for our country.
For major decisions, like Scottish independence - effectively the destruction of our United Kingdom - or membership of the EU - the end of European unity - you should require a very big majority, if you want to maintain national unity.
2/3 or 66% in favour of such important decisions would be reasonable. We shouldn't just flip-flop by approximately 1% every time there is an election. That really doesn't make sense. The idea of being conservative and preserving the status quo, unless a big majority of our people want to change it, is a sensible one.
To sum up, to make a decision that changes all of our lives, if 51% want it, we all have to live with it doesn't really do much for national unity; it just creates a very divided nation, which is very evident in this thread.
[Post edited 29 Mar 2021 0:21]
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| This is Brexit on 06:40 - Mar 29 with 1171 views | JaySaint |
Where do you draw the line of 'changing lives'.
You could argue that Maggie changed everyones lives more than leaving a political union?
what about Tony Blair, should he have required 2/3s majority?
we left a political union, that is all. | |
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| This is Brexit on 18:18 - Mar 30 with 1088 views | Berber |
| This is Brexit on 23:35 - Mar 28 by dirk_doone |
Especially if you are in a minority of 49%. The way our democracy operates means that whoever is in power, half the country is unhappy about it. Proportional representation would be less divisive.
When we are at war and it really matters, we have a government of national unity which everyone can get behind. I would be in favour of that as I don't support any one party: I just want whatever works best for our country.
For major decisions, like Scottish independence - effectively the destruction of our United Kingdom - or membership of the EU - the end of European unity - you should require a very big majority, if you want to maintain national unity.
2/3 or 66% in favour of such important decisions would be reasonable. We shouldn't just flip-flop by approximately 1% every time there is an election. That really doesn't make sense. The idea of being conservative and preserving the status quo, unless a big majority of our people want to change it, is a sensible one.
To sum up, to make a decision that changes all of our lives, if 51% want it, we all have to live with it doesn't really do much for national unity; it just creates a very divided nation, which is very evident in this thread.
[Post edited 29 Mar 2021 0:21]
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Cameron could have set a 2/3 vote for Brexit. However, he thought that Remain would win a tight vote, so plumped for the simple majority, thinking he would then say to Brexiteers, "Well you had your chance and we voted against." Boy did it backfire. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Mar 30 with 1070 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 18:18 - Mar 30 by Berber |
Cameron could have set a 2/3 vote for Brexit. However, he thought that Remain would win a tight vote, so plumped for the simple majority, thinking he would then say to Brexiteers, "Well you had your chance and we voted against." Boy did it backfire. |
Yes! it backfired all right on us.
What a waste of time and money that could have been so better be spent. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 19:54 - Mar 30 with 1047 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Mar 30 by grumpy |
Yes! it backfired all right on us.
What a waste of time and money that could have been so better be spent. |
Never mind, think of all the millions saved by no longer contributing to the failing EU political project 😇 [Post edited 30 Mar 2021 19:55]
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