| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich 13:02 - Feb 14 with 109413 views | loftboy |
Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road? |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:52 - Feb 24 with 3061 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:40 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
NATO has posed zero aggressive threat to post USSR Russia. Zero. It's a ludicrous pretext. Astonishing that anyone could buy into Putin's propaganda. He's simply a scaled up version of a classic playground or pub bully - you called my mate a cnt/looked at me in a funny way/spilled my pint. |
Again, very naive. The writing has been on the wall for the past 20 years, especially since the Bucharest Summit in 2008:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080724150537/ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3681609.ece
"Expansion of the alliance to Russia’s borders “would be taken in Russia as a direct threat to the security of our country”. NATO statements that this was not directed against Russia were not enough, he said."
Why antagonise Russia if they are not a threat (they were very weak following the break up of the Soviet Union) and then complain about it when they bare their teeth again? [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:54]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:55 - Feb 24 with 3033 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:40 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
NATO has posed zero aggressive threat to post USSR Russia. Zero. It's a ludicrous pretext. Astonishing that anyone could buy into Putin's propaganda. He's simply a scaled up version of a classic playground or pub bully - you called my mate a cnt/looked at me in a funny way/spilled my pint. |
They literally stage an invasion of Northern Russia from Norway called Operation Unified Vision every two years and have done since the 90s I think.
No bullets fired, granted, but aggressive nonetheless. As is expansion.
I think the Putin propaganda comment is uncalled for. Like I say, a plague on both their houses. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:59 - Feb 24 with 3001 views | kensalriser |
Extremely saddening, to put it mildly, sickening actually, to see people supporting a megalomaniac dictator who thinks nothing of murdering his political opponents even on foreign soil and who has just launched a completely unjustifiable military attack on a sovereign neighbour which could well end in thousands of deaths. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:01 - Feb 24 with 2991 views | highleverhoopL |
It's been reported today that Abramovic's private jet has left Monaco destination Moscow |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:02 - Feb 24 with 2985 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:59 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
Extremely saddening, to put it mildly, sickening actually, to see people supporting a megalomaniac dictator who thinks nothing of murdering his political opponents even on foreign soil and who has just launched a completely unjustifiable military attack on a sovereign neighbour which could well end in thousands of deaths. |
Apart from a small fringe on Social Media, who actually is though? No one on here has and LfW posters always have an opinion in my experiance! [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 16:03]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:04 - Feb 24 with 2960 views | kensalriser |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:02 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Apart from a small fringe on Social Media, who actually is though? No one on here has and LfW posters always have an opinion in my experiance! [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 16:03]
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You castigating me for calling out Putin's propaganda? It's all propaganda! Putin makes Johnson look like an incompetent beginner when it comes to lying. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:07 - Feb 24 with 2937 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:43 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
I'm awfully sorry but that is an extremely naïve way to look how foreign policy is shaped in any any country, democratic or otherwise. When you say 'If Ukraine wants to join NATO' you say it as if the people there have voted in a referendum for it to happen; no. The decision is made by the people in power, in this case pro western backed puppets. It's no big secret, at least not to the Russians, that the regime change in the Ukraine in Feb 2014 was a flat out coup - arch-warmonger himself Jon McCain was IN Kiev at the time on the streets telling the people of the country the USA was behind them. Let that sink in for a second. An American senator, in the capital city of a neighbouring country to Russia which has a multitude of historical grievances with Russia, stoking up trouble and effectively overthrowing the elected government and giving their support to a side that has openly Neo Nazi forces within it. I probably don't need to remind you that Russia lost 20 million people to the Nazis, something they will not forget anytime soon. It's like Putin going to Canada during the trucker crisis and throwing his lot behind them and toppling Trudeau. Never going to happen obviously, but then the states have the Munroe Doctrine don't they which sees any meddling in the western hemisphere by a European power as a threat to national security. But when the boot is on the other foot it's ok right? |
Oh dear - save me the lecture - I can read books as well!
You can look at it through your lens, but as Kensalriser has pointed out (and I agree) Putin is a bully and right now a shit load of soldiers and weaponry are ploughing through Ukraine . I don't know you, but I am surprised at how may people are repeating Putin's talking points and defending his outright aggression. He has to be opposed - end of. If that means Russian boys going home in bodybags (it has already started) that is a price worth paying. You let this go, China will attack Taiwan and then they both set their sights on the West. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:13 - Feb 24 with 2904 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:04 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
You castigating me for calling out Putin's propaganda? It's all propaganda! Putin makes Johnson look like an incompetent beginner when it comes to lying. |
No i'm not castigating you, i'm saying it's unfair to intimate that's where people universally get their opinions from.
Putin is a horrendous, bloodsoaked dictator. But our failings put him there, including selling him some of the weapons that fall on Ukraine today.
I am saying we (the West) can acknowledge the barbarity of Putin without letting NATO, sections of the EU, and 40 years of shit Republican, Democrat, Labour, and Tory governments off the hook for their part in it. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 16:16]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:15 - Feb 24 with 2882 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:55 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
They literally stage an invasion of Northern Russia from Norway called Operation Unified Vision every two years and have done since the 90s I think.
No bullets fired, granted, but aggressive nonetheless. As is expansion.
I think the Putin propaganda comment is uncalled for. Like I say, a plague on both their houses. |
Russia has been staging submarine based ballistic missile attacks on most of Europe for the past 20yrs - the Royal Navy literally listens to them. In addition, Putin has staged multiple hypersonic missile attacks on the West, who have to reciprocate.
He has taken it up a notch, by using a veiled threat to actually use nuclear weapons. The west know that the ballistic threat from them is minimal, as a large percentage of their missiles are not nuclear-ready.
Yet people still talk up his playbook - astonishing. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:19 - Feb 24 with 2859 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:15 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
Russia has been staging submarine based ballistic missile attacks on most of Europe for the past 20yrs - the Royal Navy literally listens to them. In addition, Putin has staged multiple hypersonic missile attacks on the West, who have to reciprocate.
He has taken it up a notch, by using a veiled threat to actually use nuclear weapons. The west know that the ballistic threat from them is minimal, as a large percentage of their missiles are not nuclear-ready.
Yet people still talk up his playbook - astonishing. |
I cannot see a difference in morality between holding provocative excercises off the Isle of Wight or Murmansk. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:24 - Feb 24 with 2842 views | cheeseydane |
I think Putins bluffing, but its a hell of a chance to call that bluff.
One stray bullet, one mistake on the borders between airforces.... doesn't bare thinking about.
Seriously worried. |  |
| Technology advances, unfortunately humans do not. |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:28 - Feb 24 with 2824 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:07 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
Oh dear - save me the lecture - I can read books as well!
You can look at it through your lens, but as Kensalriser has pointed out (and I agree) Putin is a bully and right now a shit load of soldiers and weaponry are ploughing through Ukraine . I don't know you, but I am surprised at how may people are repeating Putin's talking points and defending his outright aggression. He has to be opposed - end of. If that means Russian boys going home in bodybags (it has already started) that is a price worth paying. You let this go, China will attack Taiwan and then they both set their sights on the West. |
Fair enough, you have your views, I have mine. You say you can read - perhaps you saw my earlier post where I said I wasn't pro Putin and abhorred all bullies whether they're Russia, America, China, etc. Furthermore, I'm not repeating Putin's talking points - I have a masters degree in War Studies from King's College so would hazard a guess I'm a tad more familiar with the subject area and its history than you are. I might be wrong. However, what I do know is all this jingoism isn't going to help anyone. The war in east Ukraine has been going on for ages already with tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced on both sides. What's happening right now is bad, no one is disputing that. The alternative however, is a lot worse. The only winner is the military industrial complex. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:29 - Feb 24 with 2813 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:24 - Feb 24 by cheeseydane |
I think Putins bluffing, but its a hell of a chance to call that bluff.
One stray bullet, one mistake on the borders between airforces.... doesn't bare thinking about.
Seriously worried. |
My uneducated guess is that he will stop at Russian speaking Luhansk and Donetsk and the West will swallow it and the remaining untouched (apart from airfields) regions of Ukraine will join Nato eventually.
That will be seen as a compromise and Putin goes home to applause from the nationalists in Russia and NATO goes home to applause with one more member on it's books.
Baltics states and the Polish / Kalingrad boarder however are a tinderbox as you say and will be the next arena.
In the meantime, as ever, death and distruction will be wrought on ordinary people. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 16:31]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:37 - Feb 24 with 2772 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:29 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
My uneducated guess is that he will stop at Russian speaking Luhansk and Donetsk and the West will swallow it and the remaining untouched (apart from airfields) regions of Ukraine will join Nato eventually.
That will be seen as a compromise and Putin goes home to applause from the nationalists in Russia and NATO goes home to applause with one more member on it's books.
Baltics states and the Polish / Kalingrad boarder however are a tinderbox as you say and will be the next arena.
In the meantime, as ever, death and distruction will be wrought on ordinary people. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 16:31]
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That's pretty much how I see it going too. There'll be a lot of huffing and puffing in the West but essentially whenever the powers go to ware it's done with an agreement from the other side not to get involved, or else. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:57 - Feb 24 with 2705 views | GloryHunter |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:59 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
Extremely saddening, to put it mildly, sickening actually, to see people supporting a megalomaniac dictator who thinks nothing of murdering his political opponents even on foreign soil and who has just launched a completely unjustifiable military attack on a sovereign neighbour which could well end in thousands of deaths. |
". . . a completely unjustifiable military attack on a sovereign neighbour . . ."
Even Boris's hero Winston Churchill wasn't above murdering a few thousand allies when it suited him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:11 - Feb 24 with 2651 views | themodfather |
em, a while back some small fella with a small tache thought, there are people over that border who speak our language, they must need our protection and he moved troops in, then again and again. he was Hitler, they were Germans and here we go again! as putin states he is protecting russians in ukraine, were they prisoners? stopped from moving to russia? and his argument/excuse is crazy cos under the old ussr they all spoke russian or could claim to be!idiot.
as for chelski, we all waited for the comedown, maybe this is it . horrible kunts. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:18 - Feb 24 with 2619 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:28 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Fair enough, you have your views, I have mine. You say you can read - perhaps you saw my earlier post where I said I wasn't pro Putin and abhorred all bullies whether they're Russia, America, China, etc. Furthermore, I'm not repeating Putin's talking points - I have a masters degree in War Studies from King's College so would hazard a guess I'm a tad more familiar with the subject area and its history than you are. I might be wrong. However, what I do know is all this jingoism isn't going to help anyone. The war in east Ukraine has been going on for ages already with tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced on both sides. What's happening right now is bad, no one is disputing that. The alternative however, is a lot worse. The only winner is the military industrial complex. |
I acknowledge your expertise and insight, but I profoundly disagree with some of your positions.
I guess that is the beauty of a democracy and free-speech, which is what the Ukrainian people are fighting for tonight. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:24 - Feb 24 with 2578 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:26 - Feb 24 with 2569 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:18 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
I acknowledge your expertise and insight, but I profoundly disagree with some of your positions.
I guess that is the beauty of a democracy and free-speech, which is what the Ukrainian people are fighting for tonight. |
Awkward....
https://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2021/08/26/ukraine-president-bans-oppositio
Can you see that there are few good guys in this situation? Authoratarian Putin won't be halted by authortarian Ukraine. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 17:48]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:37 - Feb 24 with 2517 views | Stainrod |
Putin is a corrupt strongman and virtually a dictator looking to stoke up nostalgia for the Soviet Union's supposed glory days.
Don't see why anyone would defend him steaming into a country and causing loss of life.
But as with most conflicts there are legitimate grievances on both sides. It was agreed years ago (Minsk Accord think it was called) that Ukraine would give lots of autonomy to the two main Russian speaking regions. But as I understand it they have failed to deliver. Am not justifying Putin going in, but if you have a warmongering psycho on your doorstep like Vlad, it sure gave him a convenient excuse.
That's my no doubt simplistic take, tho' stand to be corrected - we seem to suddenly have a large number of Russian experts on here... | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:39 - Feb 24 with 2509 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:37 - Feb 24 by Stainrod |
Putin is a corrupt strongman and virtually a dictator looking to stoke up nostalgia for the Soviet Union's supposed glory days.
Don't see why anyone would defend him steaming into a country and causing loss of life.
But as with most conflicts there are legitimate grievances on both sides. It was agreed years ago (Minsk Accord think it was called) that Ukraine would give lots of autonomy to the two main Russian speaking regions. But as I understand it they have failed to deliver. Am not justifying Putin going in, but if you have a warmongering psycho on your doorstep like Vlad, it sure gave him a convenient excuse.
That's my no doubt simplistic take, tho' stand to be corrected - we seem to suddenly have a large number of Russian experts on here... |
Again, no one defending Putin. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:59 - Feb 24 with 2433 views | GloryHunter |
The Chelsea owner, Roman Abramovich, was identified by the Home Office in 2019 as having links to the Russian state as well as to “corrupt activity and practices”, a Labour MP has told parliament, suggesting the UK should seize his assets and bar him from owning the football club.
Chris Bryant told MPs he was quoting from a Home Office document leaked to him, and asked why nothing more had been done about Abramovich’s UK assets given this official verdict.
Raising the issue of tier 1 visas, the sort held by Abramovich, which allow very rich people to invest in the UK, Bryant directly quoted a section of what he said was the Home Office document.
“I’ve got hold of a leaked document from 2019, from the Home Office, which says in relation to Mr Abramovich: ‘As part of HMG’s [Her Majesty’s government] Russia strategy aimed at targeting illicit finance and malign activity, Abramovich remains of interest to HMG due to his links to the Russian state and his public association with corrupt activity and practices,’” Bryant told the Commons.
He went on, still quoting the document: “‘An example of this is Abramovich admitting in court proceedings that he paid for political influence. Therefore HMG is focused on ensuring individuals linked to illicit finance and malign activity are unable to base themselves in the UK, and will use the relevant tools at its disposal, including immigration powers, to prevent this.’”
Bryant added: “That’s nearly three years ago. And yet remarkably little has been done. Surely Mr Abramovich should no longer be able to own a football club in this country? Surely we should be looking at seizing some of his assets, including his £150m home, and making sure that other people who have had tier 1 visas like this are not engaged in malign activity in the UK?”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/24/roman-abramovich-linked-to-russian | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 18:50 - Feb 24 with 2291 views | BostonR |
What’s awkward?
Serving me up editorials doesn’t float my boat. Unless this all fake news, Russian soldiers, artillery and aircraft are smothering Ukraine tonight and killing innocent civilians. I dearly hope the Ukrainian army can inflict some mortal damage to the invaders. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 18:57 - Feb 24 with 2257 views | stevec |
Just watching BBC news from Ukraine and it taught me something.
Young activists play the guitar a bit shit all over the world. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 19:13 - Feb 24 with 2210 views | kensalriser |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:39 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Again, no one defending Putin. |
Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your position but it seems to me you're arguing that Putin has legitimate grievances and that somehow his invasion of Ukraine is someone else's fault. He doesn't and it's not. You're also putting forward false equivalence arguments (oh look Ukraine isn't a perfect model of liberal democracy). Putin alone chose to wage war completely unnecessarily since Ukraine poses zero threat to Russia -the actual perceived threat is a functioning ex-USSR democracy on his doorstep that might give his domestic opponents succour. | |
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