| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich 13:02 - Feb 14 with 109409 views | loftboy |
Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road? |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:06 - Feb 25 with 2787 views | gobbles |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:35 - Feb 25 by BrianMcCarthy |
I don't think he's saying that at all, to be fair Gobbles.
He's saying, and I quote, that The Ukraine have "Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion" which is surely indisputable, and it's only one of many points he has made.
I'm not aiming this at you, Gobbles, i promise, but can we not fall into the trap of pushing each other onto "sides". I see nothing but universal condemnation of Putin on here. I am, however, learning a lot about other aspects of the situation, that learning will stop if we're all painted into corners. |
By moving the speech marks it reads "Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs". With the emphasis on "his" |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:07 - Feb 25 with 2780 views | slmrstid |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:29 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
I don't understand why you are tarring all of Ukraine's forces and government on the basis of that. If the UK was invaded and the EDL got together their little militia to fight invaders, would that mean all British people supported them. What you are saying sounds exactly like the narrative being pushed out every hour by RT. |
This is actually an interesting point to make you think.
I abhor the EDL, their lot and what they stand for. But if the UK was being attacked and there was a band of EDL in my vicinity helping to protect me and my home from foreign invaders would I be grateful? Well, lets be honest, yes and I think you'd be pretty hard-pushed to find anyone hard-nosed enough to be saying "I want defending, but not by your sort".
This is the problem with times like this, all sorts of complex and murky things. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:19 - Feb 25 with 2708 views | Rangersw12 |
A poignant video and audio clip doing the rounds of 13 Ukrainians refusing to surrender to a Russian warship on "Snake Island"
Last words were from the Ukrainians "go fck yourself"
They were then all killed. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:21 - Feb 25 with 2687 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:06 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
By moving the speech marks it reads "Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs". With the emphasis on "his" |
Ok, point taken. I read it differently, but no problem.  |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:23 - Feb 25 with 2671 views | QPR_Jim |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:41 - Feb 25 by stevec |
Unfortunately the subversives in this country will undermine our own efforts way before the Russian people undermine Putins. |
How much of the division within western countries is a result of Russian troll farms? |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:30 - Feb 25 with 2642 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:06 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
By moving the speech marks it reads "Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs". With the emphasis on "his" |
OK let me break it down for you. Zelensky is the current president of Ukraine. That much we can agree on. The Azov Battalion was formed in 2014 and is an official arm of the National Guard of Ukraine, meaning it falls under the direct jurisdiction of the Ministry of Internal Affairs which reports to the Government of Ukraine. Do you see where I'm going with this?
The EDL has no links to our government to my knowledge or is endorsed in any way by anyone in office. I do see your point though. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:43 - Feb 25 with 2574 views | dmm |
I found this analysis on how things may pan out over the coming years for Ukraine, Putin and Russia quite helpful.
Of course, it may not, and probably won't work out exactly in the way described, but at least it provides a possible direction and some hope for the future.
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:43 - Feb 25 with 2571 views | gobbles |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:30 - Feb 25 by Orthodox_Hoop |
OK let me break it down for you. Zelensky is the current president of Ukraine. That much we can agree on. The Azov Battalion was formed in 2014 and is an official arm of the National Guard of Ukraine, meaning it falls under the direct jurisdiction of the Ministry of Internal Affairs which reports to the Government of Ukraine. Do you see where I'm going with this?
The EDL has no links to our government to my knowledge or is endorsed in any way by anyone in office. I do see your point though. |
But wasn't the Azov Battalion formed as an independent militia, which was then given an official tag to use as a bulwark fighting spread against the Russian-backed rebels? Zelensky has been president about two years.
Let's not over romanticise these rebels. After all it was "rebels" who shot down the Malaysia Airline plane, using Russian surface-to-air missiles, which was six miles high | | | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:46 - Feb 25 with 2546 views | joe90 |
Let's bring this thread back under control.
We all agree (I hope) on the following:
1: Russia's invasion is unjustified.
2: Historical points about Russia's claim to the region serve as a point of context, not justification.
3: The political instability of the Ukraine since it's independence doesn't negate the fact it's a sovereign sate and therefore does not justify the Russian invasion.
4: The extent to which the Azov Battalion has neo-nazi sympathies is disputed. What is not disputed is the fact there are Jewish members of the battalion. The existence of this Battalion and the alleged political allegiance of some of it's members does not justify the invasion of Russia. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 13:01]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:54 - Feb 25 with 2500 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:43 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
But wasn't the Azov Battalion formed as an independent militia, which was then given an official tag to use as a bulwark fighting spread against the Russian-backed rebels? Zelensky has been president about two years.
Let's not over romanticise these rebels. After all it was "rebels" who shot down the Malaysia Airline plane, using Russian surface-to-air missiles, which was six miles high |
I'm not into the business of whataboutism. I'm just just stating the facts as I see them. As someone mentioned earlier the reality is almost always a lot complex and murkier. For a nation like Russia which lost at least 20 million people to Nazis having something like the Azov Battalion parked a few miles off it's border is unthinkable. I've never seen Zelensky openly condemn their existence.
Nothing but condemnation for what happened to the plane, still sickens me to this day. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:15 - Feb 25 with 2367 views | QPR_Jim |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:46 - Feb 25 by joe90 |
Let's bring this thread back under control.
We all agree (I hope) on the following:
1: Russia's invasion is unjustified.
2: Historical points about Russia's claim to the region serve as a point of context, not justification.
3: The political instability of the Ukraine since it's independence doesn't negate the fact it's a sovereign sate and therefore does not justify the Russian invasion.
4: The extent to which the Azov Battalion has neo-nazi sympathies is disputed. What is not disputed is the fact there are Jewish members of the battalion. The existence of this Battalion and the alleged political allegiance of some of it's members does not justify the invasion of Russia. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 13:01]
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On the unjustified invasion point, I've read some points to give context and to help understand the Russian perspective on why they felt it necessary to attack, even if we disagree with it. But can anyone shed any light onto what steps were taken by Russia, if any, to resolve this peacefully? I'm not familiar with the whole story, so honestly would be good to know if anything was done in advance to avoid a conflict. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:16 - Feb 25 with 2352 views | stevec |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:23 - Feb 25 by QPR_Jim |
How much of the division within western countries is a result of Russian troll farms? |
Not as much as we pretend. You’ve only got to look at our own mainstream television, for years there’s been a constant trashing of this country from within, there are plenty of so called British citizens who want to see this country fail.
The diatribe against our history, ‘white privilege’, little Englanders, to constantly aim to weaken essentially the male of this nation has been incessant. Poignant when you think that the same critics, if push comes to shove, will expect those same people to put their lives on the line to defend the nation and people they so despise. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:17 - Feb 25 with 2361 views | kensalriser |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:54 - Feb 25 by Orthodox_Hoop |
I'm not into the business of whataboutism. I'm just just stating the facts as I see them. As someone mentioned earlier the reality is almost always a lot complex and murkier. For a nation like Russia which lost at least 20 million people to Nazis having something like the Azov Battalion parked a few miles off it's border is unthinkable. I've never seen Zelensky openly condemn their existence.
Nothing but condemnation for what happened to the plane, still sickens me to this day. |
You're still pushing major parts of the Kremlin's disinformation campaign: "denazifying Ukraine" and hinting that the 13000 killed in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine are somehow the Ukrainian government's fault when the conflict was entirely manufactured and fomented by Putin. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:18 - Feb 25 with 2360 views | GloryHunter |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:43 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
But wasn't the Azov Battalion formed as an independent militia, which was then given an official tag to use as a bulwark fighting spread against the Russian-backed rebels? Zelensky has been president about two years.
Let's not over romanticise these rebels. After all it was "rebels" who shot down the Malaysia Airline plane, using Russian surface-to-air missiles, which was six miles high |
Maybe there's a slight similarity here with the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) in WWI, which started as an anti-Catholic paramilitary force to resist Irish Home Rule, and then offered themselves to fight on the Western Front. (They fought ferociously, and won four VCs).
It has been suggested (not on Wiki) that they had a deal with Lloyd George that if they volunteered, he would not allow Ulster to leave Britain.
The Irish posters on here will be more informed about this than me. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:21 - Feb 25 with 2342 views | rrrspricey |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:56 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
How disingenuous of you. Is Zelensky a neo-Nazi? That is the point you are clearly making |
I'm pretty sure that's not the point OH was making but there's no denying it, the Battalion is a far-right, albeit voluntary unit which forms part of military reserve of National Guard of Ukraine and is part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Minister of which reports directly to Zelensky. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:33 - Feb 25 with 2296 views | GloryHunter |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:15 - Feb 25 by QPR_Jim |
On the unjustified invasion point, I've read some points to give context and to help understand the Russian perspective on why they felt it necessary to attack, even if we disagree with it. But can anyone shed any light onto what steps were taken by Russia, if any, to resolve this peacefully? I'm not familiar with the whole story, so honestly would be good to know if anything was done in advance to avoid a conflict. |
Yes, Putin asked NATO to commit to never having Ukraine as a member. NATO refused, saying it was up to Ukraine to decide which organisations it wanted to be a member of. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:34 - Feb 25 with 2289 views | joe90 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:15 - Feb 25 by QPR_Jim |
On the unjustified invasion point, I've read some points to give context and to help understand the Russian perspective on why they felt it necessary to attack, even if we disagree with it. But can anyone shed any light onto what steps were taken by Russia, if any, to resolve this peacefully? I'm not familiar with the whole story, so honestly would be good to know if anything was done in advance to avoid a conflict. |
The Russian perspective is that the Ukraine is their sphere of influence. Historically it was part of the Russian empire and then the Soviet Union.
The key point is the Ukraine is an independent and UN recognised state. Whatever people think about Western foreign policy, alleged neo-nazi battalions, 'protecting' Russian minorities or Russia's historical links etc, Russia's invasion is not justified. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:37 - Feb 25 with 2277 views | joe90 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:33 - Feb 25 by GloryHunter |
Yes, Putin asked NATO to commit to never having Ukraine as a member. NATO refused, saying it was up to Ukraine to decide which organisations it wanted to be a member of. |
NATO rightly refused. It is up to the Ukraine to decide which organisations it want's to join. NATO accepting Ukraine is another matter.
The fundamental point is that Russia doesn't decide what Ukraine can and can't do. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:37 - Feb 25 with 2277 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:18 - Feb 25 by GloryHunter |
Maybe there's a slight similarity here with the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) in WWI, which started as an anti-Catholic paramilitary force to resist Irish Home Rule, and then offered themselves to fight on the Western Front. (They fought ferociously, and won four VCs).
It has been suggested (not on Wiki) that they had a deal with Lloyd George that if they volunteered, he would not allow Ulster to leave Britain.
The Irish posters on here will be more informed about this than me. |
Quite right.
They fought in WW1 alongside the Irish Volunteer Force who were formed to achieve Home Rule for Ireland and who were promised (ahem) Home Rule for Ireland by the British. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:03 - Feb 25 with 2198 views | Juzzie |
Back in the day the west were not happy about the Russian's/Communists getting ever closer to the west (Iron Curtain and all that). The Iron Curtain came down and now those countries are part of NATO meaning they are now closer to the east.
Seems to me it's two sides of the same coin. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:04 - Feb 25 with 2193 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:17 - Feb 25 by kensalriser |
You're still pushing major parts of the Kremlin's disinformation campaign: "denazifying Ukraine" and hinting that the 13000 killed in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine are somehow the Ukrainian government's fault when the conflict was entirely manufactured and fomented by Putin. |
I'm not pushing an agenda. Please don't suggest I'm supporting Kremlin's narrative either - I obtained this this information myself from multiple sources, and when you look t what's being spouted in the West's MSM and East's propaganda machine you'll probably find something resembling the truth somewhere in the middle. The conflict in Eastern Ukraine was a direct result of the Western backed coup of 2014.
You seem to be intent on seeing things in black and white, of good guys and bad guys. Let me give you a hint - there are no good guys. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:07 - Feb 25 with 2177 views | robith |
Does anyone else like....not know their opinions are or what is right?
Obvs Putin is a homophobic, racist dictator who is waging an illegal imperialist war. I don't want a war, but sanctions don't feel like enough? Or certainly not the sanctions we're imposing? I'm no lover of NATO either - they're obviously not on Putin's level, but they're not an an organisation I'd want to ride my high horse about. Maybe if in the UK I'd feel better if our economic sanctions were incredibly severe, but I feel like Russian cash has too much of a perfidious influence in our public life for us to do something that matter? I dunno, I just feel like we're just letting the people of the Ukraine get sacrificed on an alter, but I don't know what the answer is? |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:13 - Feb 25 with 2113 views | SheffieldHoop |
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:19 - Feb 25 with 2093 views | Northernr |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:07 - Feb 25 by robith |
Does anyone else like....not know their opinions are or what is right?
Obvs Putin is a homophobic, racist dictator who is waging an illegal imperialist war. I don't want a war, but sanctions don't feel like enough? Or certainly not the sanctions we're imposing? I'm no lover of NATO either - they're obviously not on Putin's level, but they're not an an organisation I'd want to ride my high horse about. Maybe if in the UK I'd feel better if our economic sanctions were incredibly severe, but I feel like Russian cash has too much of a perfidious influence in our public life for us to do something that matter? I dunno, I just feel like we're just letting the people of the Ukraine get sacrificed on an alter, but I don't know what the answer is? |
Isn't the problem here that you can't attack him or go in with Ukraine without risking a nuclear WW3, and you can't sanction him as much as you could/should because you've allowed yourself to become reliant on not only their oil and gas but other stuff - Russia is like a third of the world's wheat supply for example. India now panicking because they get all their fertilizer from there etc.
He knows this, which is why he feels he can do what he likes. They won't even chuck their bloody football teams out, because the tournaments have become hooked to all that lovely Gazprom money. Fcking sick. How on earth are Spartak Moscow in that cup draw today? That's sport in 2022.
Best hope is that thread above, that it hobbles him domestically and leads to his eventual downfall. But that's long and drawn out, and the poor Ukrainians are going to suffer terribly in the meantime. Had a couple of messages back this morning from people I met and worked with there on a few trips, now sheltering in basements from bombs.
Thoroughly sht. And anybody coming up with mitigation, whataboutery, 'fault on both sides' bullsht. This is a murderous dictator invading and attacking a neutral country because he wants it. That's it.
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:35 - Feb 25 with 2010 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:19 - Feb 25 by Northernr |
Isn't the problem here that you can't attack him or go in with Ukraine without risking a nuclear WW3, and you can't sanction him as much as you could/should because you've allowed yourself to become reliant on not only their oil and gas but other stuff - Russia is like a third of the world's wheat supply for example. India now panicking because they get all their fertilizer from there etc.
He knows this, which is why he feels he can do what he likes. They won't even chuck their bloody football teams out, because the tournaments have become hooked to all that lovely Gazprom money. Fcking sick. How on earth are Spartak Moscow in that cup draw today? That's sport in 2022.
Best hope is that thread above, that it hobbles him domestically and leads to his eventual downfall. But that's long and drawn out, and the poor Ukrainians are going to suffer terribly in the meantime. Had a couple of messages back this morning from people I met and worked with there on a few trips, now sheltering in basements from bombs.
Thoroughly sht. And anybody coming up with mitigation, whataboutery, 'fault on both sides' bullsht. This is a murderous dictator invading and attacking a neutral country because he wants it. That's it.
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You’ve given four mitigating examples then attacked people bring up mitigating examples.
We the UK will probably suffer the least from full sanctions. We rely on their gas the least and have the industrial potential to convert to renewables a lot quicker than any other country.
Cowardice on the part of the UK.
The solution comes from within. Heartening to see tens of thousands of protesters. A slither of hope [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 12:40]
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