| Millwall fans racist surprise! 17:26 - Dec 5 with 4970 views | Sadoldgit |
Well, not really a surprise. Apparently they booed when their players took the knee today. If there was one club whose supporters you would expect to do this, my money would be in Millwall. |  | | |  |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:48 - Dec 7 with 783 views | solent_toffee |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:06 - Dec 7 by saint22 |
A very good post Toffs and I agree that often campaigning fails on deaf ears but should we just sit back and let the uneducated minority carry on with vile despicable behaviour in 2020?
Surely its time these types of people know that prejudice in any form is no longer acceptable, or do we sit back like that muppet Environment minister yesterday and refuse to condemn it? |
Of course they should be called out for it. As for punishment, as someone said in a previous post, will that stop people from carrying on with this behaviour as they will say it’s their views.
Proper education to the minority is the answer, albeit it takes hard work. You get done for speeding, you do a speed awareness course. You get done for racist abuse, you might get a fine and a ban from the ground, but nothing is done to address the issue.
A few years ago a Saints fan was prosecuted for homophobic chants at Brighton. He got a ban and lost his job (I think he worked at the club shop). I don’t know the ins and outs of this case, but for me it didn’t make sense to penalise his and his families economic situation, the punishment was punitive and not progressive. |  | | |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:33 - Dec 7 with 732 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:48 - Dec 7 by solent_toffee |
Of course they should be called out for it. As for punishment, as someone said in a previous post, will that stop people from carrying on with this behaviour as they will say it’s their views.
Proper education to the minority is the answer, albeit it takes hard work. You get done for speeding, you do a speed awareness course. You get done for racist abuse, you might get a fine and a ban from the ground, but nothing is done to address the issue.
A few years ago a Saints fan was prosecuted for homophobic chants at Brighton. He got a ban and lost his job (I think he worked at the club shop). I don’t know the ins and outs of this case, but for me it didn’t make sense to penalise his and his families economic situation, the punishment was punitive and not progressive. |
This is dangerous territory. Outright racial abuse is one thing and needs to be stopped and punished, but penalising people who may be giving expression (however clumsy) to their view that taking the knee represents a political stance is a different matter.
There are always going to be grey areas, but punishing clubs for this would be wrong - where does it stop? Can I not object to say, a team from Brunei? Is it wrong for the Burma veterans to turn their backs on the Japanese Prime minister when he makes his way along the Mall?
Whoever draws the line on curtailing freedom of expression has immense power, and power can be abused. |  |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:36 - Dec 7 with 729 views | DorsetIan |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:45 - Dec 7 by Berber |
The discussions on this board are fascinating and enlightening. I like the fact that for the most part, it is conducted without idiotic name calling.
The fundamental problem with racism, anti gay, anti whatever groups is intolerance. The intolerance shown towards people who have a valid reason to protest usually betrays a denial or sympathy towards the first intolerance. For me, people who actively react against a passive form of protest, such as taking the knee have some thinking to do.
Sure, it is American, and imported and somewhat crass. To claim it is meaningless when players and clubs voluntarily continue to add their support doesn't hold any logic. It may be meaningless to you, but that is not a reason to deny its validity to hundreds, thousands or millions of other people. That is intolerance.
Almost no clubs supporters abuse their own non white or non British players. That doesn't mean that abusing opposition players in those categories is non racist and that racism in football (or the media, as cited by Sterling) isn't an issue.
Incidentally, there were some (more than one) incidents of anti semitic chanting that I heard in the Kingsland stand last season against Spurs, and another more famously reported by a press reporter also in the Kingsland. Given how close the personal networks are there, the lack of challenges was interesting. I guess we all have a tendency to let the idiots get away with things and not being *rsed about it isn't really good enough. |
There is nothing like a good old racism debate to get the TUI forum buzzing, but you are right it's great that the name calling has largely gone.
My observation is that there seems to be a pretty broad consensus on here that there's no place for racism, just a disagreement over whether BLM/taking the knee is helpful or not.
The fact that there is consensus on the main point has got to be hopeful. | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:37 - Dec 7 with 728 views | geezershoong1 |
As an openly bisexual man, the only abuse I get is from Militant Lesbians with metal embedded into their faces or trans people who believe they are the 'future of the race'... |  |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:57 - Dec 7 with 710 views | solent_toffee |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:33 - Dec 7 by Chesham_Saint |
This is dangerous territory. Outright racial abuse is one thing and needs to be stopped and punished, but penalising people who may be giving expression (however clumsy) to their view that taking the knee represents a political stance is a different matter.
There are always going to be grey areas, but punishing clubs for this would be wrong - where does it stop? Can I not object to say, a team from Brunei? Is it wrong for the Burma veterans to turn their backs on the Japanese Prime minister when he makes his way along the Mall?
Whoever draws the line on curtailing freedom of expression has immense power, and power can be abused. |
It will be interesting to see how FIFA attempt to celebrate equality and diversity during the Qatar World Cup in 2022 that’s for sure. | | | |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 14:15 - Dec 7 with 646 views | SaintNick |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 11:57 - Dec 7 by solent_toffee |
It will be interesting to see how FIFA attempt to celebrate equality and diversity during the Qatar World Cup in 2022 that’s for sure. |
They will stone the same number of men as women |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 14:22 - Dec 7 with 640 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 14:15 - Dec 7 by SaintNick |
They will stone the same number of men as women |
That is very gracious of them! Gender equality at play at least. In all seriousness, we do all these campaigns and then the powers that be, decide to have two major competitions in Russia and Qatar. Two places where gay people are persecuted and certainly in Russia, racism is rife. The hypocrisy really doesn't help change. Still, at least stadiums are lit up in rainbow colours, yet we have competitions in countries where gay people are stoned to death. [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 14:23]
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 14:54 - Dec 7 with 622 views | Sadoldgit |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:06 - Dec 7 by Saintsforeverj |
It's tokenism. Do you think the colours of the rainbow represent gay people? All colourful and bright, like a butterfly? Rainbow laces flickering in the air and people waving flags? I would imagine not all gay people want to be viewed like that. Straight people or otherwise might see themselves at multi coloured too, they might not. The same as I said for racism, the homophobes won't stop or change their views because clubs colour a few seats. It's rammed down people's throats because they are even turning red and white seats into multi coloured seats. I thinks it's getting silly. Tackle homophobia and racism yes, but do something that actually has an impact. Don't start changing the colour of my team's seats! [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 10:18]
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At least it is still driving the conversation then, be it tokenism or not. Whatever you think about players taking the knee (I hate that expression by the way, it is so Game of Thrones) at least we are still taking about it. And yes, some people do need to have it rammed down their throats, and if that is the very small price the rest of us have to pay to try and get rid of racism, don’t you think it is worth it? I think that you will find that the people on the end of ethnic hatred will be. Really, what difference does it make to you if two teams kneel down for a few seconds before a match? It is clearly working because it is helping to carry on the debate. When was the last time you heard someone discuss the Kick It Out campaign? | | | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 15:10 - Dec 7 with 614 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 14:54 - Dec 7 by Sadoldgit |
At least it is still driving the conversation then, be it tokenism or not. Whatever you think about players taking the knee (I hate that expression by the way, it is so Game of Thrones) at least we are still taking about it. And yes, some people do need to have it rammed down their throats, and if that is the very small price the rest of us have to pay to try and get rid of racism, don’t you think it is worth it? I think that you will find that the people on the end of ethnic hatred will be. Really, what difference does it make to you if two teams kneel down for a few seconds before a match? It is clearly working because it is helping to carry on the debate. When was the last time you heard someone discuss the Kick It Out campaign? |
It doesn't really make much difference to me if two teams kneel down, but I know it's as pointless and fake as Roy Keane and Souness wearing rainbow laces badges. We know they are doing it because they have been told to, not because they really believe in it. Plus, the BLM campaign has other political messages. Is it not ok, to disagree with their views on defunding the police and / or some slating Winston Churchill and therefore boo?
I see it that the more you ram things down someone's throat, the more they might rebel. What if you are religious and have a different view on people being gay. Should they be forced to have it rammed down their throats? Might division be created, when it wasn't there before all the campaigns? I by the way stand up for any adult being whatever they want / are, but some people have different views. Why can't we stop all this tokenism and just deal with any racist etc very harshly and send the message that there will be severe consequences. Plus ram education down the throats of those who need it. Not everyone. Wouldn't that be more effective?
A 10 year sentence and 20 years of education would make a racist think twice, a lot more than players going on one knee, don't you think? [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 15:13]
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 16:56 - Dec 7 with 584 views | Berber |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 15:10 - Dec 7 by Saintsforeverj |
It doesn't really make much difference to me if two teams kneel down, but I know it's as pointless and fake as Roy Keane and Souness wearing rainbow laces badges. We know they are doing it because they have been told to, not because they really believe in it. Plus, the BLM campaign has other political messages. Is it not ok, to disagree with their views on defunding the police and / or some slating Winston Churchill and therefore boo?
I see it that the more you ram things down someone's throat, the more they might rebel. What if you are religious and have a different view on people being gay. Should they be forced to have it rammed down their throats? Might division be created, when it wasn't there before all the campaigns? I by the way stand up for any adult being whatever they want / are, but some people have different views. Why can't we stop all this tokenism and just deal with any racist etc very harshly and send the message that there will be severe consequences. Plus ram education down the throats of those who need it. Not everyone. Wouldn't that be more effective?
A 10 year sentence and 20 years of education would make a racist think twice, a lot more than players going on one knee, don't you think? [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 15:13]
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The QPR players asking to do it at the Den tomorrow, after stopping recently because of fears that it was becoming tokenism gives lie to your main premise. |  | | |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:20 - Dec 7 with 553 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 16:56 - Dec 7 by Berber |
The QPR players asking to do it at the Den tomorrow, after stopping recently because of fears that it was becoming tokenism gives lie to your main premise. |
That will be interesting to see what happens at the Den tomorrow. | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:39 - Dec 7 with 539 views | Bicester_North |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:20 - Dec 7 by Saintsforeverj |
That will be interesting to see what happens at the Den tomorrow. |
The title of this thread would be good for an Alan Partridge new TV show idea | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:41 - Dec 7 with 539 views | SaintNick |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:20 - Dec 7 by Saintsforeverj |
That will be interesting to see what happens at the Den tomorrow. |
Brave of them to do it, but fair play to them they are making the point that they are not doing it because they are not anti racist, but because they are for freedom of choice, now they are showing they freedom of choice works both ways | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 22:20 - Dec 7 with 496 views | Berber |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:20 - Dec 7 by Saintsforeverj |
That will be interesting to see what happens at the Den tomorrow. |
Dodged it, “standing shoulder to shoulder” 😆 | | | |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 22:25 - Dec 7 with 490 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 22:20 - Dec 7 by Berber |
Dodged it, “standing shoulder to shoulder” 😆 |
Yeah just seen that news. Erm, I think they know that Millwall fans might kick off. And when they kick off, we are talking rioting all night! | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 22:42 - Dec 7 with 480 views | Bicester_North |
If Millwall fans clap the standing shoulder to shoulder that should just put the “they are racist” argument in its box.
If they boo it, they deserve some grief but I’ll be surprised if they do. | |
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 23:06 - Dec 7 with 468 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 18:39 - Dec 7 by Bicester_North |
The title of this thread would be good for an Alan Partridge new TV show idea |
And what will be their surprise? Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to the Den for this evening's clash. We have a surprise for you...... [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 23:09]
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| Millwall fans racist surprise! on 10:19 - Dec 8 with 380 views | PaleRider |
Unfortunately taking the knee is now just ritualistic gesture politics which does not have the same significance that it does in the USA (for a number of reasons). It has reached the stage where it probably does nothing to combat racism. As a result, it should probably have stopped at the end of last season.
Although I am vehemently anti-racist (and have suffered discrimination - try being English in Boston on Independence Day!), I do not necessarily believe that the Millwall and Colchester fans' booing on Saturday was necessarily racist and therefore fans should not be banned for expressing freedom of speech, no matter how crass. For those that were offended by it, I would love to know exactly what you were offended by.
Also for anyone who believes that the race issues are the same in the UK and the US clearly has not spent much time in the US. Although we have clear and systemic issues her, they are no where near the same level as in the US. | | | |
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