| UK and EU deal done 14:51 - Dec 24 with 8744 views | Saintsforeverj |
Reported on sky news. Boris has got the deal that respects all our red lines. Food won't go up, free trade deal agreed, we make our own laws and we can watch Saints in Europe next year. Sorry for another political thread, but this is good news for us all. Congratulations Boris for getting what the brexiteers voted for and we won't have the no deal that was threatened. Money talks, the EU were never going to lose billions and neither was the UK. He has got Brexit done. [Post edited 24 Dec 2020 14:54]
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| UK and EU deal done on 11:33 - Dec 30 with 1757 views | Bridders2 |
| UK and EU deal done on 17:08 - Dec 29 by Sadoldgit |
I am not an economist but it could be enough to make a big difference to the economy. We shall also have to pay back the billions borrowed to help us out on the pandemic which can only mean higher taxes. We could well be heading for another recession. Either way, I really can’t see anyone rushing out to spend anything that they have managed to squirrel away so far this year on non essential items. |
It's a good deal for the UK and for workers rights. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:40 - Dec 30 with 1722 views | Chesham_Saint |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:41 - Dec 29 by kernow |
A bit like Brexit really then. |
No, not really. The U.K.’s exports to the EU are 43% (and declining) whereas the Scot’s exports to the rest of the U.K. are more than 60%. |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 12:45 - Dec 30 with 1720 views | Sadoldgit |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:33 - Dec 30 by Bridders2 |
It's a good deal for the UK and for workers rights. |
Serious question, how do you know? Have you studied it closely or are you just going by what Johnson says? I doubt if many MPs have had much time to scrutinise it yet. |  | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:10 - Dec 30 with 1676 views | kernow |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:40 - Dec 30 by Chesham_Saint |
No, not really. The U.K.’s exports to the EU are 43% (and declining) whereas the Scot’s exports to the rest of the U.K. are more than 60%. |
No. A lot like Brexit really, in that the political will overshadow the economic arguments.
They won't get a referendum though. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 14:12]
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| UK and EU deal done on 14:24 - Dec 30 with 1656 views | grumpy |
I think its disgraceful how they have rushed this through, MPs have not had the time to scrutinize all the details.
I didn't want Brexit but have been dragged into accepting it, and I am thankful that we have a deal opposed to not having one.
What I find annoying is all this 'isn't it wonderful now were on our own and don't have those nasty Europeans telling us what to do' rubbish.
As for Boris, words fail me. |  | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:26 - Dec 30 with 1654 views | Bridders2 |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:45 - Dec 30 by Sadoldgit |
Serious question, how do you know? Have you studied it closely or are you just going by what Johnson says? I doubt if many MPs have had much time to scrutinise it yet. |
When it comes to Workers rights the UK has led rather than followed the EU.
A lot of what you might think are "EU" rights were in fact implemented through British legislation, which is often a good deal more robust and more generous than the EU requirement.
For instance, the EU’s minimum annual holiday period is 4 weeks, yet in Britain it’s 5.6 weeks.
EU directives on maternity leave mean that mothers are entitled to 14 weeks’ leave. But parents in Britain can qualify for up to 50 weeks of shared leave, 37 of which are paid.
The Equal Pay Act had nothing to with the EU. A Labour govt introduced it in 1970. The Equal Pay Act is now largely superseded by the Equality Act of 2010–legislation that would remain after any kind of Brexit.
Remaining in the EU would have been absolutely NO guarantee of workers rights.
EU law does defend basic minimum rights for workers on an individual basis. But EU policy, derived from the Lisbon Treaty, sees collective bargaining itself – the direct exercise of power by trade unions in wage setting – as detrimental to the operation of the free market.
The number of workers covered by collective agreements has fallen precipitously all over the EU - this is not coincidental. Workers' legal rights mean very little without the collective strength to enforce them.
Even initiatives that seem, on the surface, to be all about protecting rights, do not in fact, do any such thing. The Agency Workers Directive appears helpful but in fact has led to a massive increase across Europe in the number of workers employed through agencies and hence without the full rights of directly employed workers.
It seems bizarre that the Labour party - who still like to portray themselves as on the side of workers against management - choose to ally themselves, under the pretext of defending workers, with the very organisation that is undermining workers rights and their ability to effect change.
But why would posters believe me? Too many seem oblivious to arguments from "the other side", so how about this - from The New Statesman (no pro-Tory rag, they!)
"A feeble and erroneous argument for supporting the EU — one which is repeatedly used by both government and opposition leaders — is that leaving the EU would damage employment in Britain. This is simply not true.
…. The EU is not at its core about employment rights, nor even is it about human rights. The EU has accepted employment rights to give the illusion that it is on the side of workers and trade unions — at least slightly — and to try to keep trade unions passive.
The millions of unemployed in Spain, Greece and increasingly elsewhere have seen no benefit from alleged worker and trade union rights. In the cases of the Viking Line and Laval, workers tried to contest their employers replacing them with lower-paid workers from another EU country. But the European Court of Justice found in favour of employers rather than workers.
Across the whole of the EU, the plight of working people is getting worse. …. Labour Europhiles raise the spectre of Britain losing worker and trade union rights and, indeed, human rights if Britain left the EU. But the simple counter argument is that Labour could and should commit to re-establishing rights taken away by the Tories and the Coalition.
Labour could, and should, recommit to membership of the European Convention on Human Rights (not a creation of the European Union but established by the Council of Europe) and International Labour Organisation conventions. Affiliated unions could and should simply commit the party to a package of progressive legislation to re-establish trade union and worker rights immediately after the next election. "
Rather than pretend the EU is a friend to the workers - which it provenly is not - why not campaign to enshrine such rights into British law? We are a mature democracy.
We had no way of ensuring such rights were secure whilst in the EU.
Show me an ECJ judgement, any judgement under EU law, that defended workers against the management? Show me when EU law sided with the workers against the corporation?
You might find one or two small cases if you really looked hard, but look for judgements that found in favour of the corporation against the unions, against the workers, and you'll be inundated.
The idea that the EU is a friend to the worker is a myth. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:55 - Dec 30 with 1636 views | kernow |
No friend of the City of London either, I suspect. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 15:38 - Dec 30 with 1602 views | grumpy |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:26 - Dec 30 by Bridders2 |
When it comes to Workers rights the UK has led rather than followed the EU.
A lot of what you might think are "EU" rights were in fact implemented through British legislation, which is often a good deal more robust and more generous than the EU requirement.
For instance, the EU’s minimum annual holiday period is 4 weeks, yet in Britain it’s 5.6 weeks.
EU directives on maternity leave mean that mothers are entitled to 14 weeks’ leave. But parents in Britain can qualify for up to 50 weeks of shared leave, 37 of which are paid.
The Equal Pay Act had nothing to with the EU. A Labour govt introduced it in 1970. The Equal Pay Act is now largely superseded by the Equality Act of 2010–legislation that would remain after any kind of Brexit.
Remaining in the EU would have been absolutely NO guarantee of workers rights.
EU law does defend basic minimum rights for workers on an individual basis. But EU policy, derived from the Lisbon Treaty, sees collective bargaining itself – the direct exercise of power by trade unions in wage setting – as detrimental to the operation of the free market.
The number of workers covered by collective agreements has fallen precipitously all over the EU - this is not coincidental. Workers' legal rights mean very little without the collective strength to enforce them.
Even initiatives that seem, on the surface, to be all about protecting rights, do not in fact, do any such thing. The Agency Workers Directive appears helpful but in fact has led to a massive increase across Europe in the number of workers employed through agencies and hence without the full rights of directly employed workers.
It seems bizarre that the Labour party - who still like to portray themselves as on the side of workers against management - choose to ally themselves, under the pretext of defending workers, with the very organisation that is undermining workers rights and their ability to effect change.
But why would posters believe me? Too many seem oblivious to arguments from "the other side", so how about this - from The New Statesman (no pro-Tory rag, they!)
"A feeble and erroneous argument for supporting the EU — one which is repeatedly used by both government and opposition leaders — is that leaving the EU would damage employment in Britain. This is simply not true.
…. The EU is not at its core about employment rights, nor even is it about human rights. The EU has accepted employment rights to give the illusion that it is on the side of workers and trade unions — at least slightly — and to try to keep trade unions passive.
The millions of unemployed in Spain, Greece and increasingly elsewhere have seen no benefit from alleged worker and trade union rights. In the cases of the Viking Line and Laval, workers tried to contest their employers replacing them with lower-paid workers from another EU country. But the European Court of Justice found in favour of employers rather than workers.
Across the whole of the EU, the plight of working people is getting worse. …. Labour Europhiles raise the spectre of Britain losing worker and trade union rights and, indeed, human rights if Britain left the EU. But the simple counter argument is that Labour could and should commit to re-establishing rights taken away by the Tories and the Coalition.
Labour could, and should, recommit to membership of the European Convention on Human Rights (not a creation of the European Union but established by the Council of Europe) and International Labour Organisation conventions. Affiliated unions could and should simply commit the party to a package of progressive legislation to re-establish trade union and worker rights immediately after the next election. "
Rather than pretend the EU is a friend to the workers - which it provenly is not - why not campaign to enshrine such rights into British law? We are a mature democracy.
We had no way of ensuring such rights were secure whilst in the EU.
Show me an ECJ judgement, any judgement under EU law, that defended workers against the management? Show me when EU law sided with the workers against the corporation?
You might find one or two small cases if you really looked hard, but look for judgements that found in favour of the corporation against the unions, against the workers, and you'll be inundated.
The idea that the EU is a friend to the worker is a myth. |
https://www.personneltoday.com | | | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 18:05 - Dec 30 with 1535 views | kentsouthampton |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:33 - Dec 30 by Bridders2 |
It's a good deal for the UK and for workers rights. |
Clueless as usual, it's the first time anywhere in the world a country has signed a trade deal that's actually put up barriers to trade and made trade more expensive, it's going to be paid for by falling living standards and job losses. |  | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:22 - Dec 30 with 1518 views | Sadoldgit |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:05 - Dec 30 by kentsouthampton |
Clueless as usual, it's the first time anywhere in the world a country has signed a trade deal that's actually put up barriers to trade and made trade more expensive, it's going to be paid for by falling living standards and job losses. |
It apparently we are going to be able to have our cake and eat it? He refuses to accept that there will be barriers to trade, just “changes”. It will be interesting to see what those “changes” are and how much they end up costing our businesses. For someone aspiring to be thought of as another great orator in the footsteps of Churchill, the use of the word “cakiest” to describe the treaty takes some swallowing. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:33 - Dec 30 with 1500 views | Saintsforeverj |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:05 - Dec 30 by kentsouthampton |
Clueless as usual, it's the first time anywhere in the world a country has signed a trade deal that's actually put up barriers to trade and made trade more expensive, it's going to be paid for by falling living standards and job losses. |
This deal that nobody thought was possible (free trade of goods outside of the single market), is much better than no deal. Before the last election, the government promised to get Brexit done with a deal. They were elected with people knowing a Tory government meant Brexit, hopefully with a deal. They have delivered what the people elected them for. Even Labour areas for over 100 years turned Tory because they wanted Brexit. It can't be denied. The voters elected them for Brexit and they have have delivered.
Whether you agree with Brexit or not, the people of this country decisively voted for it. Remember, if people didn't want Brexit, they could have voted for remain parties: they didn't, they wanted Brexit done and Boris has delivered what was the best deal possible. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:37]
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| UK and EU deal done on 19:00 - Dec 30 with 1480 views | Berber |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:26 - Dec 30 by Bridders2 |
When it comes to Workers rights the UK has led rather than followed the EU.
A lot of what you might think are "EU" rights were in fact implemented through British legislation, which is often a good deal more robust and more generous than the EU requirement.
For instance, the EU’s minimum annual holiday period is 4 weeks, yet in Britain it’s 5.6 weeks.
EU directives on maternity leave mean that mothers are entitled to 14 weeks’ leave. But parents in Britain can qualify for up to 50 weeks of shared leave, 37 of which are paid.
The Equal Pay Act had nothing to with the EU. A Labour govt introduced it in 1970. The Equal Pay Act is now largely superseded by the Equality Act of 2010–legislation that would remain after any kind of Brexit.
Remaining in the EU would have been absolutely NO guarantee of workers rights.
EU law does defend basic minimum rights for workers on an individual basis. But EU policy, derived from the Lisbon Treaty, sees collective bargaining itself – the direct exercise of power by trade unions in wage setting – as detrimental to the operation of the free market.
The number of workers covered by collective agreements has fallen precipitously all over the EU - this is not coincidental. Workers' legal rights mean very little without the collective strength to enforce them.
Even initiatives that seem, on the surface, to be all about protecting rights, do not in fact, do any such thing. The Agency Workers Directive appears helpful but in fact has led to a massive increase across Europe in the number of workers employed through agencies and hence without the full rights of directly employed workers.
It seems bizarre that the Labour party - who still like to portray themselves as on the side of workers against management - choose to ally themselves, under the pretext of defending workers, with the very organisation that is undermining workers rights and their ability to effect change.
But why would posters believe me? Too many seem oblivious to arguments from "the other side", so how about this - from The New Statesman (no pro-Tory rag, they!)
"A feeble and erroneous argument for supporting the EU — one which is repeatedly used by both government and opposition leaders — is that leaving the EU would damage employment in Britain. This is simply not true.
…. The EU is not at its core about employment rights, nor even is it about human rights. The EU has accepted employment rights to give the illusion that it is on the side of workers and trade unions — at least slightly — and to try to keep trade unions passive.
The millions of unemployed in Spain, Greece and increasingly elsewhere have seen no benefit from alleged worker and trade union rights. In the cases of the Viking Line and Laval, workers tried to contest their employers replacing them with lower-paid workers from another EU country. But the European Court of Justice found in favour of employers rather than workers.
Across the whole of the EU, the plight of working people is getting worse. …. Labour Europhiles raise the spectre of Britain losing worker and trade union rights and, indeed, human rights if Britain left the EU. But the simple counter argument is that Labour could and should commit to re-establishing rights taken away by the Tories and the Coalition.
Labour could, and should, recommit to membership of the European Convention on Human Rights (not a creation of the European Union but established by the Council of Europe) and International Labour Organisation conventions. Affiliated unions could and should simply commit the party to a package of progressive legislation to re-establish trade union and worker rights immediately after the next election. "
Rather than pretend the EU is a friend to the workers - which it provenly is not - why not campaign to enshrine such rights into British law? We are a mature democracy.
We had no way of ensuring such rights were secure whilst in the EU.
Show me an ECJ judgement, any judgement under EU law, that defended workers against the management? Show me when EU law sided with the workers against the corporation?
You might find one or two small cases if you really looked hard, but look for judgements that found in favour of the corporation against the unions, against the workers, and you'll be inundated.
The idea that the EU is a friend to the worker is a myth. |
Bravo, a tour de force against the romantic lefty LibDem views propounded everywhere. |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 20:09 - Dec 30 with 1452 views | Sadoldgit |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:33 - Dec 30 by Saintsforeverj |
This deal that nobody thought was possible (free trade of goods outside of the single market), is much better than no deal. Before the last election, the government promised to get Brexit done with a deal. They were elected with people knowing a Tory government meant Brexit, hopefully with a deal. They have delivered what the people elected them for. Even Labour areas for over 100 years turned Tory because they wanted Brexit. It can't be denied. The voters elected them for Brexit and they have have delivered.
Whether you agree with Brexit or not, the people of this country decisively voted for it. Remember, if people didn't want Brexit, they could have voted for remain parties: they didn't, they wanted Brexit done and Boris has delivered what was the best deal possible. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:37]
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Once again, I admire your confidence in Johnson. As to whether it is “the best deal possible” we shall never really know. It was a deal. We don’t really know what it entails yet. Let’s wait and see shall we. After all, the proof is in the pudding and talking of which, we are just about to finish our Christmas one (made in the UK no less! 😉) | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 21:48 - Dec 30 with 1417 views | Saintsforeverj |
| UK and EU deal done on 20:09 - Dec 30 by Sadoldgit |
Once again, I admire your confidence in Johnson. As to whether it is “the best deal possible” we shall never really know. It was a deal. We don’t really know what it entails yet. Let’s wait and see shall we. After all, the proof is in the pudding and talking of which, we are just about to finish our Christmas one (made in the UK no less! 😉) |
After having a PM that went to war illegally, a PM that coughed through a conference (I felt very sorry for Mrs May actually), and the same PM who didn't get anywhere with her deal and various other PM's we probably wish to forget, yeah I actually think the current PM is ok. He nearly died of Covid, he has had to manage an unprecedented virus pandemic and has delivered a brexit deal against all odds.
His government have even paid 80 % of wages, paid for free school meals in the holidays (albeit after persuasion), so the poor are indeed being looked after under Boris. I don't think May would have been as generous. He has made some mistakes with the pandemic, but being the reasonable man I am, I understand that he is not a scientist or a virologist and didn't vote him for that reason so forgive a few errors that many other leaders have also made too. Boris is always positive, even he does bend the truth and nothing wrong with positivity imo. Yeah, in relative terms I like him, but that's just my opinion🤔. You are entitled to yours too.
Hope you enjoyed the Christmas pudding 😋ðŸ°ðŸŽ…. We still have some Christmas stuff to finish off before we all go on a diet from Saturday to shift the Christmas pounds put on. 
Boris has even inspired us all to lose weight 😛 [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 4:20]
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| UK and EU deal done on 05:50 - Dec 31 with 1360 views | Berber |
| UK and EU deal done on 18:05 - Dec 30 by kentsouthampton |
Clueless as usual, it's the first time anywhere in the world a country has signed a trade deal that's actually put up barriers to trade and made trade more expensive, it's going to be paid for by falling living standards and job losses. |
That is an interesting take, but all the economic forecasts show growth, slower with Brexit and faster for EU. So where do job losses and falling living standards come in? | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 08:39 - Dec 31 with 1340 views | kentsouthampton |
| UK and EU deal done on 05:50 - Dec 31 by Berber |
That is an interesting take, but all the economic forecasts show growth, slower with Brexit and faster for EU. So where do job losses and falling living standards come in? |
7 billion in additional paperwork for businesses (source HMRC) means higher prices in the shops and job reductions to pay for it alongside lower and slower growth equals job losses and lower living standards.
Even the odious turd Farage has conceded that point. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:13 - Dec 31 with 1311 views | Bicester_North |
| UK and EU deal done on 08:39 - Dec 31 by kentsouthampton |
7 billion in additional paperwork for businesses (source HMRC) means higher prices in the shops and job reductions to pay for it alongside lower and slower growth equals job losses and lower living standards.
Even the odious turd Farage has conceded that point. |
How will all this affect the price of fantasy kitchens? | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 13:27 - Dec 31 with 1275 views | Bazza |
| UK and EU deal done on 08:39 - Dec 31 by kentsouthampton |
7 billion in additional paperwork for businesses (source HMRC) means higher prices in the shops and job reductions to pay for it alongside lower and slower growth equals job losses and lower living standards.
Even the odious turd Farage has conceded that point. |
7 billion is scarcely more (in today's money) than it cost us for that dullard Major playing around in the European exchange rate in 1992. Not happy with that Major signed the Maastricht treaty in 1993 without any referendum before Blair wanted us (stopped by Brown) to join the Euro ( at a poor exchange rate) and in 2004 opened our boundaries expecting only an extra 13000 immigrants, we know how that turned out! Blair also broke a promised referendum on the Lisbon treaty but signed it anyway in 2007 (before he did a runner).
So my point is that UK politicians have been messing around with Europe for years costing a great deal of money. Economists are only guessing about the future outturn influenced by their political bias and lack of detail.
UK have always been on the fringe of the EU, not comfortable with increasing political union, particularly exposed by Farage in the European Parliament.
You shouldn't be so insulting about Farage (or anyone else), he was the catalyst for change and it was the weak Cameron that conceded a referendum( before he did a runner), and of course 52% of the population who voted to leave. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 15:03 - Dec 31 with 1255 views | Chesham_Saint |
| UK and EU deal done on 13:27 - Dec 31 by Bazza |
7 billion is scarcely more (in today's money) than it cost us for that dullard Major playing around in the European exchange rate in 1992. Not happy with that Major signed the Maastricht treaty in 1993 without any referendum before Blair wanted us (stopped by Brown) to join the Euro ( at a poor exchange rate) and in 2004 opened our boundaries expecting only an extra 13000 immigrants, we know how that turned out! Blair also broke a promised referendum on the Lisbon treaty but signed it anyway in 2007 (before he did a runner).
So my point is that UK politicians have been messing around with Europe for years costing a great deal of money. Economists are only guessing about the future outturn influenced by their political bias and lack of detail.
UK have always been on the fringe of the EU, not comfortable with increasing political union, particularly exposed by Farage in the European Parliament.
You shouldn't be so insulting about Farage (or anyone else), he was the catalyst for change and it was the weak Cameron that conceded a referendum( before he did a runner), and of course 52% of the population who voted to leave. |
Clearly there is going to be no agreement across the board on this. Time will probably help sort the who was right/wrong a bit. In the meantime if I cast my mind back to Question Time when Farage first rocked up, he was the subject of derision from fellow panellists and audiences alike. No-one of any real consequence took his arguments seriously,
Love him or loathe him, being the catalyst and driving force for Brexit is an amazing political achievement even if you despise it. His actions will have far longer term consequences than those of thousands of other politicians over the last 30 years. | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 15:06 - Dec 31 with 1253 views | Sadoldgit |
| UK and EU deal done on 21:48 - Dec 30 by Saintsforeverj |
After having a PM that went to war illegally, a PM that coughed through a conference (I felt very sorry for Mrs May actually), and the same PM who didn't get anywhere with her deal and various other PM's we probably wish to forget, yeah I actually think the current PM is ok. He nearly died of Covid, he has had to manage an unprecedented virus pandemic and has delivered a brexit deal against all odds.
His government have even paid 80 % of wages, paid for free school meals in the holidays (albeit after persuasion), so the poor are indeed being looked after under Boris. I don't think May would have been as generous. He has made some mistakes with the pandemic, but being the reasonable man I am, I understand that he is not a scientist or a virologist and didn't vote him for that reason so forgive a few errors that many other leaders have also made too. Boris is always positive, even he does bend the truth and nothing wrong with positivity imo. Yeah, in relative terms I like him, but that's just my opinion🤔. You are entitled to yours too.
Hope you enjoyed the Christmas pudding 😋ðŸ°ðŸŽ…. We still have some Christmas stuff to finish off before we all go on a diet from Saturday to shift the Christmas pounds put on.
Boris has even inspired us all to lose weight 😛 [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 4:20]
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The pudding was excellent thank you! It was an extravagance from Waitrose (one of Hearin’s concoctions) and slipped down nicely with some brandy butter!
Opinions are what makes the world go round and it is good (and enjoyable) that we can share them without coming to blows!
Strangely, I have met both Johnson and Starmer and it has been interesting to see how different they are up close and personal. Johnson was the editor of The Specaror a few years ago and was my bosses boss at the time. He was no oil painting but certainly was a fanny magnet for women of a certain age! He has charisma in spades whereas Starmer is totally focussed to the point of seemingly having no personality at all. He will make a good PM though 😉
Anyway, wishing you and all Uglies a peaceful and Covid free New Year. An extra wish too for some silverware for Saints. | | | |
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