| UK and EU deal done 14:51 - Dec 24 with 8753 views | Saintsforeverj |
Reported on sky news. Boris has got the deal that respects all our red lines. Food won't go up, free trade deal agreed, we make our own laws and we can watch Saints in Europe next year. Sorry for another political thread, but this is good news for us all. Congratulations Boris for getting what the brexiteers voted for and we won't have the no deal that was threatened. Money talks, the EU were never going to lose billions and neither was the UK. He has got Brexit done. [Post edited 24 Dec 2020 14:54]
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| UK and EU deal done on 10:10 - Dec 25 with 1578 views | RednWight |
I think most people who voted to leave will be pleased apart , probably , from the fishermen
What I’ve never understood is people saying we should not be governed by a load of unelected ( the eu commission) but are happy to continue having a House of Lords |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 07:27 - Dec 26 with 1371 views | Berber |
At the risk of sounding hypocritical after moaning about non footy posts, yesterday afforded some time to peruse the internet more widely than usual, and I thought I had better pay some more attentions rather than dismiss threads out of hand.
I voted to remain in the EU because of the many plus points rehearsed widely and frequently. My single reservation concerned sovereignty, which is the main theme of Brexiteers, and one which I have much empathy. Having happily lived and worked in mainland Europe, in two countries for over 7 years, I returned to the UK because I wanted my children to be brought up as Brits, despite the huge attractions of remaining abroad at the time. I have British friends who decided to stay, and are happy that they did so.
From a sovereignty perspective, comparing the House of Lords as an unelected body to EU rulemaking doesn't stand up apart from the unelected bit. The House of Lords, by convention and in practise cannot overturn the rule of the House of Commons in its law making role. ie The House of Commons is supreme in democratically representing the voters who put the MPs there. EU rulemakers can enforce law on EU member states in the vast majority of cases. The UK was lucky to have far more rights to opt out than any of the other countries, but these rights were resented, under attack, and wherever possible, eroded by legislation from the side. Making law by the sway of 28 countries has many features and benefits to admire, but sovereign choice is not one of them. If The UK was not in favour and the other 27 were, then increasingly, we had to go along, and that road is leading to a United States of Europe, as openly admitted by EU officials.
The argument is often put, "What benefits do you get outside of the EU that you cannot get inside?" In most cases, the interests of the UK will align with the interests of countries in the EU. But not to have the choice to say "No" is a loss of freedom. It is quite possible that an individual may enjoy being bent over and shafted. But if that happens when they have not specifically given their consent, it is rape. The distinction seems to be getting lost with the arguments for the greater good of Europe. I don't want MEP's taking on more power than my own MP. I don't want the ex Finance Minister of Luxembourg calling the shots over the PM of the UK. There may be an economic price to pay for keeping the choice in my hands. I know that some people think the money is worth the loss of choice, but I don't, which is why I respect the vote of the UK as a whole to leave the EU, whatever the reasons each voter may have had.
The NY Times article has many valid points. But it only looks at the trade aspects, not political or cultural ones. It also only looks at the past 4 years or so, and naturally, with a heavy US bias. But the world that has suffered the impact and change brought about by Trump thinking, doesn't necessarily have to continue down that road, as the US electorate have just shown. The article is just an interesting view, not necessarily the real world. |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 09:15 - Dec 26 with 1329 views | grumpy |
| UK and EU deal done on 07:27 - Dec 26 by Berber |
At the risk of sounding hypocritical after moaning about non footy posts, yesterday afforded some time to peruse the internet more widely than usual, and I thought I had better pay some more attentions rather than dismiss threads out of hand.
I voted to remain in the EU because of the many plus points rehearsed widely and frequently. My single reservation concerned sovereignty, which is the main theme of Brexiteers, and one which I have much empathy. Having happily lived and worked in mainland Europe, in two countries for over 7 years, I returned to the UK because I wanted my children to be brought up as Brits, despite the huge attractions of remaining abroad at the time. I have British friends who decided to stay, and are happy that they did so.
From a sovereignty perspective, comparing the House of Lords as an unelected body to EU rulemaking doesn't stand up apart from the unelected bit. The House of Lords, by convention and in practise cannot overturn the rule of the House of Commons in its law making role. ie The House of Commons is supreme in democratically representing the voters who put the MPs there. EU rulemakers can enforce law on EU member states in the vast majority of cases. The UK was lucky to have far more rights to opt out than any of the other countries, but these rights were resented, under attack, and wherever possible, eroded by legislation from the side. Making law by the sway of 28 countries has many features and benefits to admire, but sovereign choice is not one of them. If The UK was not in favour and the other 27 were, then increasingly, we had to go along, and that road is leading to a United States of Europe, as openly admitted by EU officials.
The argument is often put, "What benefits do you get outside of the EU that you cannot get inside?" In most cases, the interests of the UK will align with the interests of countries in the EU. But not to have the choice to say "No" is a loss of freedom. It is quite possible that an individual may enjoy being bent over and shafted. But if that happens when they have not specifically given their consent, it is rape. The distinction seems to be getting lost with the arguments for the greater good of Europe. I don't want MEP's taking on more power than my own MP. I don't want the ex Finance Minister of Luxembourg calling the shots over the PM of the UK. There may be an economic price to pay for keeping the choice in my hands. I know that some people think the money is worth the loss of choice, but I don't, which is why I respect the vote of the UK as a whole to leave the EU, whatever the reasons each voter may have had.
The NY Times article has many valid points. But it only looks at the trade aspects, not political or cultural ones. It also only looks at the past 4 years or so, and naturally, with a heavy US bias. But the world that has suffered the impact and change brought about by Trump thinking, doesn't necessarily have to continue down that road, as the US electorate have just shown. The article is just an interesting view, not necessarily the real world. |
So you are saying that you have changed your mind and think its good that we have left the EU.
Firstly I think we should abolish the House of Lords, its outdated, a waste of money and undemocratic, what's the point of it?
Are we so different from the EU?
When the Government wants to push through a vote which a lot of their own MPs don't agree with out come the Whips to make them vote otherwise, if they don't they have the Whip taken from them. Is that that right?
As for 'I don't want MEP's taking on more power than my own MP. I don't want the ex Finance Minister of Luxembourg calling the shots'
We have our own MEP's do we not?
We were better within the EU it gave us more power in a world increasingly dominated by the Super powers.
It will interesting to see the 'small print 'of the deal, I doubt it much better than the deal we had with them in the first place.
We were stronger within the EU and more secure, now we face the break up of the UK.
What a waste of time and money this Brexit has been. [Post edited 26 Dec 2020 9:19]
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| UK and EU deal done on 10:15 - Dec 26 with 1285 views | kernow |
Without needing to read the small print, it's a much worse deal.
Personally, I've lost more than I've gained especially freedom.
I don't trust or like the UK government.so I've buggered off. That's sad, but in the words of the late, great Bing Crosby, "don't fence me in." | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:38 - Dec 26 with 1270 views | Bicester_North |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:15 - Dec 26 by kernow |
Without needing to read the small print, it's a much worse deal.
Personally, I've lost more than I've gained especially freedom.
I don't trust or like the UK government.so I've buggered off. That's sad, but in the words of the late, great Bing Crosby, "don't fence me in." |
Yes I think you’ve mentioned this before. | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 10:45 - Dec 26 with 1264 views | kernow |
Oh, pardon me.
Getting repetitive in my dotage.  | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:51 - Dec 26 with 1259 views | Chesham_Saint |
| UK and EU deal done on 07:27 - Dec 26 by Berber |
At the risk of sounding hypocritical after moaning about non footy posts, yesterday afforded some time to peruse the internet more widely than usual, and I thought I had better pay some more attentions rather than dismiss threads out of hand.
I voted to remain in the EU because of the many plus points rehearsed widely and frequently. My single reservation concerned sovereignty, which is the main theme of Brexiteers, and one which I have much empathy. Having happily lived and worked in mainland Europe, in two countries for over 7 years, I returned to the UK because I wanted my children to be brought up as Brits, despite the huge attractions of remaining abroad at the time. I have British friends who decided to stay, and are happy that they did so.
From a sovereignty perspective, comparing the House of Lords as an unelected body to EU rulemaking doesn't stand up apart from the unelected bit. The House of Lords, by convention and in practise cannot overturn the rule of the House of Commons in its law making role. ie The House of Commons is supreme in democratically representing the voters who put the MPs there. EU rulemakers can enforce law on EU member states in the vast majority of cases. The UK was lucky to have far more rights to opt out than any of the other countries, but these rights were resented, under attack, and wherever possible, eroded by legislation from the side. Making law by the sway of 28 countries has many features and benefits to admire, but sovereign choice is not one of them. If The UK was not in favour and the other 27 were, then increasingly, we had to go along, and that road is leading to a United States of Europe, as openly admitted by EU officials.
The argument is often put, "What benefits do you get outside of the EU that you cannot get inside?" In most cases, the interests of the UK will align with the interests of countries in the EU. But not to have the choice to say "No" is a loss of freedom. It is quite possible that an individual may enjoy being bent over and shafted. But if that happens when they have not specifically given their consent, it is rape. The distinction seems to be getting lost with the arguments for the greater good of Europe. I don't want MEP's taking on more power than my own MP. I don't want the ex Finance Minister of Luxembourg calling the shots over the PM of the UK. There may be an economic price to pay for keeping the choice in my hands. I know that some people think the money is worth the loss of choice, but I don't, which is why I respect the vote of the UK as a whole to leave the EU, whatever the reasons each voter may have had.
The NY Times article has many valid points. But it only looks at the trade aspects, not political or cultural ones. It also only looks at the past 4 years or so, and naturally, with a heavy US bias. But the world that has suffered the impact and change brought about by Trump thinking, doesn't necessarily have to continue down that road, as the US electorate have just shown. The article is just an interesting view, not necessarily the real world. |
Some good points, well made by the Newbie on here. |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 10:52 - Dec 26 with 1254 views | JaySaint |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:15 - Dec 26 by kernow |
Without needing to read the small print, it's a much worse deal.
Personally, I've lost more than I've gained especially freedom.
I don't trust or like the UK government.so I've buggered off. That's sad, but in the words of the late, great Bing Crosby, "don't fence me in." |
What freedoms have you lost? | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 11:04 - Dec 26 with 1248 views | Sadoldgit |
I am assuming that none of us has read the 1000 plus pages document and not one of us is an economic expert so we don’t know how this going to pan out. What we do know is that Covid has knocked the stuffing out of the economy and this is probably not a good time to be dealing with such finder mental changes. Still, we are where we are and just have to get on and make the best of it. One thing is for sure, the next few years are going to be very tough for the world economy in general and we are all going to have to tighten our belts. |  | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:08 - Dec 26 with 1241 views | kernow |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:52 - Dec 26 by JaySaint |
What freedoms have you lost? |
Movement and the right to roam.
It's not only about me though
My kids opportunities to live, love, work or study in Europe, our nearest neighbour, have been limited and curtailed without any tangible gain. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:46 - Dec 26 with 1205 views | Berber |
| UK and EU deal done on 09:15 - Dec 26 by grumpy |
So you are saying that you have changed your mind and think its good that we have left the EU.
Firstly I think we should abolish the House of Lords, its outdated, a waste of money and undemocratic, what's the point of it?
Are we so different from the EU?
When the Government wants to push through a vote which a lot of their own MPs don't agree with out come the Whips to make them vote otherwise, if they don't they have the Whip taken from them. Is that that right?
As for 'I don't want MEP's taking on more power than my own MP. I don't want the ex Finance Minister of Luxembourg calling the shots'
We have our own MEP's do we not?
We were better within the EU it gave us more power in a world increasingly dominated by the Super powers.
It will interesting to see the 'small print 'of the deal, I doubt it much better than the deal we had with them in the first place.
We were stronger within the EU and more secure, now we face the break up of the UK.
What a waste of time and money this Brexit has been. [Post edited 26 Dec 2020 9:19]
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No, I haven't changed my mind. The democratic vote was clearly in favour of leaving, even if my vote was not in that pot. I do believe strongly in democracy, even if sometimes the mechanisms are flawed.
To kernow's point about lost freedom of movement, right to roam and better opportunities for our children. I know what you mean, having experienced it, and my daughter is married to a "Johnny Foreigner" and lives with her family in a european capital. Probably, to the vast majority of Brits, those things are minor or insignificant parts of their lives. Remainers, like me claimed "they don't know what they are giving up." Some of my friends replied "We don't care." That is their right, and they expressed it. For me, as a retired grumpy old git, the changes will have very little impact as I travel to and fro on my visits and holidays, and believe it will have minor impacts on my grandchildren, as it has on the enormous numbers of non EU people living and working in the EU.
It is all about personal choice, and applying that at the democratic level. I admire you for going with your convictions, and still have a hankering to live abroad again. I always fancied retraining as a plumber and moving to Northern Italy to satisfy the need for that tradesman that all the expats complain about not being available. Not going to happen now though.  | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 11:47 - Dec 26 with 1203 views | MytchettSaint |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:08 - Dec 26 by kernow |
Movement and the right to roam.
It's not only about me though
My kids opportunities to live, love, work or study in Europe, our nearest neighbour, have been limited and curtailed without any tangible gain. |
Curious to ask but given your user name are you pro or anti Cornish independence? |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 12:37 - Dec 26 with 1172 views | kernow |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:47 - Dec 26 by MytchettSaint |
Curious to ask but given your user name are you pro or anti Cornish independence? |
I don't believe that there is any such thing as "independence".
We are all inter dependent.
In the Cornish context, over the centuries, assimilation and Anglicisation have ensured that Cornish language and culture have been inevitably suppressed. The negligence of the Westminster government has also ensured that the Duchy became the poorest region in England. People and whole communities have had their livelihoods decimated through policy and market forces. There are no mines left, fishing has declined and tourism has become the mainstay of the economy. Even that has taken a huge hit due to covid.
Most coastal villages have empty, second homes and are deserted in the winter months. Young people with ambition and drive have all left. Housing is scarce and unaffordable. Transport links are inadequate.
So no, I am not pro-independence even though I have in the past put a cross in the Mebyon Kernow box on ballot papers. That was a personal choice rather than a political conviction.
Demographics have ensured that the Cornish have lost their way to a large degree. Some would argue that this was inevitable and no bad thing. It was the EU that recognized their distinct, Celtic identity.
So no, not pro independent but definitely pro-autonomy which, unfortunately, I recognize is a pipe dream.
As for the username? It was the name of my dog at the time. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:38 - Dec 26 with 1169 views | kingslandstand1 |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:04 - Dec 26 by Sadoldgit |
I am assuming that none of us has read the 1000 plus pages document and not one of us is an economic expert so we don’t know how this going to pan out. What we do know is that Covid has knocked the stuffing out of the economy and this is probably not a good time to be dealing with such finder mental changes. Still, we are where we are and just have to get on and make the best of it. One thing is for sure, the next few years are going to be very tough for the world economy in general and we are all going to have to tighten our belts. |
I'm not in to all this stuff as much as quite a few on here, but I see in this morning's paper that there is a "break clause" in 2025 (just after our next scheduled Gen Election) so do we go through a few more arguments and negotiations then as well as we will (and the EU) know how well or not it's gone? |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 12:40 - Dec 26 with 1163 views | kernow |
The talking is not yet done. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:52 - Dec 26 with 1149 views | kingslandstand1 |
| UK and EU deal done on 12:37 - Dec 26 by kernow |
I don't believe that there is any such thing as "independence".
We are all inter dependent.
In the Cornish context, over the centuries, assimilation and Anglicisation have ensured that Cornish language and culture have been inevitably suppressed. The negligence of the Westminster government has also ensured that the Duchy became the poorest region in England. People and whole communities have had their livelihoods decimated through policy and market forces. There are no mines left, fishing has declined and tourism has become the mainstay of the economy. Even that has taken a huge hit due to covid.
Most coastal villages have empty, second homes and are deserted in the winter months. Young people with ambition and drive have all left. Housing is scarce and unaffordable. Transport links are inadequate.
So no, I am not pro-independence even though I have in the past put a cross in the Mebyon Kernow box on ballot papers. That was a personal choice rather than a political conviction.
Demographics have ensured that the Cornish have lost their way to a large degree. Some would argue that this was inevitable and no bad thing. It was the EU that recognized their distinct, Celtic identity.
So no, not pro independent but definitely pro-autonomy which, unfortunately, I recognize is a pipe dream.
As for the username? It was the name of my dog at the time. |
You probably watched the Simon Reeves programmes a few weeks ago with interest then, or not and saw it with some politicised agenda? But it seemed to say what you've just said
I found it interesting and eye opening as a tourist to the area and loving the place as a tourist | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 13:44 - Dec 26 with 1114 views | washington_saint |
| UK and EU deal done on 01:08 - Dec 25 by Kennington |
For a start people who don’t value freedom of movement unless it’s to Costa Del Sol or similar for a week baking in the sun and marinating in San Miguel. In the past I’ve had offers to work in Geneva and Brussels but those came at the wrong time. I’d have been open to those again in the future, but those roles are much less likely now. So that’s what I mean, people who are fixated on ‘sovereignty’ above all else and view that above European solidarity. I get where they’re coming from, but I don’t share that outlook. |
Geneva is nothing to do with the EU - Switzerland is not in the EU.
Opportunities will still be there if you are the right person for a job - I managed to move to the US 10 years ago without any ties to the US because I was suited to the job. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 14:44 - Dec 26 with 1080 views | Berber |
| UK and EU deal done on 13:44 - Dec 26 by washington_saint |
Geneva is nothing to do with the EU - Switzerland is not in the EU.
Opportunities will still be there if you are the right person for a job - I managed to move to the US 10 years ago without any ties to the US because I was suited to the job. |
The nub of this is that individuals, with nothing special to offer, may not be able to make lifestyle choices to live in another country. The vast majority of Brits living abroad are there because their jobs took them there so will remain relatively unaffected. | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 14:56 - Dec 26 with 1075 views | Butty101 |
Middle of Christmas Day celebrations and you are posting this tedious rubbish.
If there was any doubt that you are a complete fantasist this confirms it |  |
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| UK and EU deal done on 15:59 - Dec 26 with 1055 views | JaySaint |
| UK and EU deal done on 11:08 - Dec 26 by kernow |
Movement and the right to roam.
It's not only about me though
My kids opportunities to live, love, work or study in Europe, our nearest neighbour, have been limited and curtailed without any tangible gain. |
So, none then
thanks | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 16:25 - Dec 26 with 1047 views | kernow |
| UK and EU deal done on 15:59 - Dec 26 by JaySaint |
So, none then
thanks |
You're welcome.
As testing +ve. | | | |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:32 - Dec 27 with 938 views | kentsouthampton |
The American eye view of the deal as seen the through the lens of the New York Times.
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| UK and EU deal done on 10:49 - Dec 27 with 931 views | Chesham_Saint |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:32 - Dec 27 by kentsouthampton |
The American eye view of the deal as seen the through the lens of the New York Times.
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I’m not coming down on either side here Kent, but I’m afraid the NY Times in recent years has become notorious for its anti-British reporting so as a source it’s unreliable to say the least... | |
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| UK and EU deal done on 12:04 - Dec 27 with 899 views | Bicester_North |
| UK and EU deal done on 10:49 - Dec 27 by Chesham_Saint |
I’m not coming down on either side here Kent, but I’m afraid the NY Times in recent years has become notorious for its anti-British reporting so as a source it’s unreliable to say the least... |
2 things- “Kent” is a strange skate who thinks he has to pretend to strangers that he has a really expensive kitchen
Kibasi who the NYT took that quote from is a guardian writer, left wing think tank director, and highly vocal anti Brexit/Tory etc.
These people have been desperate for the whole thing to ruin the country, and are extra angry now this deal has been achieved. | |
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