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Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road?
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
"I find it hilarious that the BBC are seen as left wing wokes trying to bring the government down whilst also being accused of being a government mouthpiece at the same time. It's an impressive trick to be both."
I was talking to a friend the other day (mainly about news/media propaganda, manipulation etc) and he made an interesting point about the BBC. They are by no means perfect but he said if the left think they are right and the right think they are left then maybe they are doing what they are meant to be doing..... presenting news from all perspectives. You know, actually doing an unbiased job? By doing so means not everyone will agree with what they say, it doesn't automatically mean they are biased if you don't happen to agree with it.
Surely news channels should be thought provoking and challenging what people think and individuals in turn should be opened minded to what they hear because the world doesn't, and never will, fit within a singular narrative.
News agencies such as Fox News, NewsGB feed peoples' narrative by only reporting what the conservative audience want to hear and the same with left leaning ones too.
That cannot be good.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 18:15 - Mar 7 with 3284 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:21 - Mar 7 by Konk
Well, even if you ignored what’s happening in Ukraine, Russia has closed down virtually all remaining independent TV stations, radio stations, newspapers and magazines. Putin has also jailed, exiled or attempted to assassinate political opponents, with participation in anti-war demonstrations punishable by 3 years in jail, and up to 10(?) years for publishing “misinformation” about the war.
Meanwhile, in the UK, our media remain unsanctioned despite often critical analysis of governments, Putin-apologists/sympathisers have been free to have their say in interviews and op-eds, and we’re not blocking internet access, whilst RT is still on air for the moment. I could also go and peacefully show support for the war outside Parliament without being thrown in jail. So, flawed as aspects of our media may be, I’m staggered that anyone could genuinely be unsure about whether the state controlled media in Russia or the free and independent media in the UK might be the most reliable witnesses to what’s going on in Ukraine.
I don't think there's any question Putin's not a scumbag. More whether the West has been completely blameless in the events leading up to the invasion.
The West and particularly the US have done some pretty sketchy stuff over the years and while Russia's media is clearly tightly controlled, I really don't trust ours 100% either.
Russia has made various claims that are probably bollox, but after seeing the way that various things have been presented as facts in our media over the past few years have turned out not to be, I'm now somewhat sceptical of everything.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 18:22 - Mar 7 with 3250 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:17 - Mar 7 by kensalriser
Just use the ignore button. You might just as well argue with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
You might be pleased to know then that Putin has been rounding them up and throwing the JWs in jail for the last 6 or 7 years. Innocent family men that put their trust and resources into god and the bible rather then Putin. Crazy people..what's not to like about Putins regime.?
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 19:29 - Mar 7 with 3112 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:51 - Mar 7 by Juzzie
"I find it hilarious that the BBC are seen as left wing wokes trying to bring the government down whilst also being accused of being a government mouthpiece at the same time. It's an impressive trick to be both."
I was talking to a friend the other day (mainly about news/media propaganda, manipulation etc) and he made an interesting point about the BBC. They are by no means perfect but he said if the left think they are right and the right think they are left then maybe they are doing what they are meant to be doing..... presenting news from all perspectives. You know, actually doing an unbiased job? By doing so means not everyone will agree with what they say, it doesn't automatically mean they are biased if you don't happen to agree with it.
Surely news channels should be thought provoking and challenging what people think and individuals in turn should be opened minded to what they hear because the world doesn't, and never will, fit within a singular narrative.
News agencies such as Fox News, NewsGB feed peoples' narrative by only reporting what the conservative audience want to hear and the same with left leaning ones too.
That cannot be good.
I have lots in agreement with you Juzzie,
Unfortunately the 'news; we now recieve on MSM is what is NOT told, it comes across that the BBC has much more in the locker but there is a fear of Johmnson and his cohorts doing all they can to turn the population against what was/is a much admired institution, yes they have faults but to me they are being muffled. Sky to a certain extent are not too bad but their reporters only can give out the many lies this Government feeds out, and try to pick the bones from so much bollox..
Theres a lot of reporting about politicians & busiesses being mixed up withe Putin and the Russians, going back a few years but it seems is never taken up by the main news channels or ITV C4.
Its up to what you my believe but if only one side is in the main reported or when their lies, mistruths ( call it what you like) are not reported on and challenged, then its no surprise views can seem out of kilter.
If Putin is to be put back in his box, we need to know exactly who was behind letting this evil knut get anywhere near the situation of him thinking he could get away with such enormous harm .
[Post edited 7 Mar 2022 19:33]
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:04 - Mar 7 with 3008 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 19:29 - Mar 7 by wood_hoop
I have lots in agreement with you Juzzie,
Unfortunately the 'news; we now recieve on MSM is what is NOT told, it comes across that the BBC has much more in the locker but there is a fear of Johmnson and his cohorts doing all they can to turn the population against what was/is a much admired institution, yes they have faults but to me they are being muffled. Sky to a certain extent are not too bad but their reporters only can give out the many lies this Government feeds out, and try to pick the bones from so much bollox..
Theres a lot of reporting about politicians & busiesses being mixed up withe Putin and the Russians, going back a few years but it seems is never taken up by the main news channels or ITV C4.
Its up to what you my believe but if only one side is in the main reported or when their lies, mistruths ( call it what you like) are not reported on and challenged, then its no surprise views can seem out of kilter.
If Putin is to be put back in his box, we need to know exactly who was behind letting this evil knut get anywhere near the situation of him thinking he could get away with such enormous harm .
[Post edited 7 Mar 2022 19:33]
News and all Tv really is heavily regulated in this country so any news that is not being told isn't a conspiracy theory it's because it hasn't passed the threshold of bring true.
Just an idea - could the humanitarian corridors be enforced under a UN resolution and policed by a NON-NATO member? That might get around the problem of provoking a nuclear response to NATO by Ras-Putin.
The only non-NATO country with the ability (and close enough) to do this would probably be Israel. And the Israeli leader has had a big meeting with Ras-Rutin recently.
(Not that any of the parties read the Loft for Words message board)
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 22:21 - Mar 7 with 2683 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 17:28 - Mar 6 by GloryHunter
Why is a 40 mile long convoy sitting there about to choke the life out of a vital city and nobody reduces it to a pile of burning metal.
Various reports saying that the convoy has run out of fuel and food (Putin had planned for it to reach Kyiv on Day 2 or 3), some troops have deserted and walked back across the border, some trucks have lost their tyres due to not having been maintained properly, and other vehicles trying to get around the jam have got stuck in muddy fields. So maybe the Ukranian Army thinks it best to just leave them stuck there, blocking the road to reinforcements and supplies.
Ukranian MP on the TV tonight saying that air attacks on the stranded convoy would endanger civilians in villages along its route.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:26 - Mar 8 with 2477 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:30 - Mar 7 by Northernr
But you don't think Ukraine are bombing their own cities right?
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that; however, wars in general - especially civil wars (I'd class this in that bracket given the historic relationship between Ukraine and Russia) can get get very nasty and very murky quickly with foul play on all sides. This makes it extremely hard for the exact truth to be disseminated on the spot while bullet and shells are flying about. Our position in the west, quite rightly, is that Putin's war on Ukraine is very wrong, and therefore Russia is bad and must be seen as such at all costs in our media. There is no room in people's minds right now to even consider that our media would even consider manipulating the truth - because the wider truth is more important. I've seen it first hand all before in the 90's during the conflict in the Balkans - events that were initially being blamed on one side in the media turned out to not be so clear cut after all (albeit a few years after the event):
This is in no way an attempt to whitewash what's happening right now in Ukraine. I'm in no doubt whatsoever personally that innocent Ukrainians are being killed by Putin, and they need all our support - but I just don't trust any form of propaganda whether it's Russian or ours.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:36 - Mar 8 with 2464 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:26 - Mar 8 by Orthodox_Hoop
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that; however, wars in general - especially civil wars (I'd class this in that bracket given the historic relationship between Ukraine and Russia) can get get very nasty and very murky quickly with foul play on all sides. This makes it extremely hard for the exact truth to be disseminated on the spot while bullet and shells are flying about. Our position in the west, quite rightly, is that Putin's war on Ukraine is very wrong, and therefore Russia is bad and must be seen as such at all costs in our media. There is no room in people's minds right now to even consider that our media would even consider manipulating the truth - because the wider truth is more important. I've seen it first hand all before in the 90's during the conflict in the Balkans - events that were initially being blamed on one side in the media turned out to not be so clear cut after all (albeit a few years after the event):
This is in no way an attempt to whitewash what's happening right now in Ukraine. I'm in no doubt whatsoever personally that innocent Ukrainians are being killed by Putin, and they need all our support - but I just don't trust any form of propaganda whether it's Russian or ours.
Also sadly true that people driven by politics and nationalism often seek to undermine journalists - or even the idea of objective truth - as a way to twist history.
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:36 - Mar 8 by DannytheR
Also sadly true that people driven by politics and nationalism often seek to undermine journalists - or even the idea of objective truth - as a way to twist history.
Not entirely sure what point you're trying to make, but it looks a veiled attempt to portray me as a denier of the genocide in Bosnia which I most certainly am not. More than happy to take this up with you via private message if you like, but I'm glad you also find the IWPR to be a credible source.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:13 - Mar 8 with 2403 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:02 - Mar 7 by daveB
News and all Tv really is heavily regulated in this country so any news that is not being told isn't a conspiracy theory it's because it hasn't passed the threshold of bring true.
@DaveB
I think we will disagree on this point. I feel that the MSM is having an awful lot of pressure put on them by the Government on so many things that they must be as frustrated as I am.
One minute we have the BBC wanting to be defunded via the licence fee, the next they are being lauded for their reporters risking their lives in the Ukraine.
Yet we have a company funded by a Russian that there are serious doubts about (GB News) that is allowed to spill bile across our country on a free to air service.
If you check out who owns our daily newspapers half are ownrd by two billionaires.
No doubt in years to come historians will be amazed at how our MSM was shackled by so few, with political views paramount to the populist views that permutate the views of the rich elite and the politicians who are their lapdogs.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:39 - Mar 8 with 2367 views
Depending on what you beleive, It seems the Russian's have sent in their soldiers ill equipped, under funded and unprepared. They've been pictured using wooden logs to armour their vehicles from attacks. They don't want to be there and allegedly they were told they would just stroll through Ukraine to the sounds of cheers and welcomes.
The shelling bombardment by Russia is likely done in desperate realisation that it's gone very bad for them. They acknowledge they've lost around 500 soldiers but its reported that figure is really into the thousands. How does Putin's political career survive what is now becoming a military disaster?
[Post edited 8 Mar 2022 9:40]
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:52 - Mar 8 with 2335 views
I'm hoping that the people of Russia rise against Putin (very unlikely I know). Think we also need to get away from the Idea that the Russian army is demoralised and weak/weakened, they are still powerful on land/sea and air. I have a horrible feeling that this week will be the week that the Russian military will try to take Kyiv, as for the Russian convoy not being attacked by the Ukranian military there Is an opinion that there are far too many villages and small towns adjacent to the convoy. The Russian naval presence currently in the Black Sea is massive.
If ever there was a time for an uprising/coup.
My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 10:37 - Mar 8 with 2211 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:52 - Mar 8 by DaBurgh
I thought this was important to post. Make of it what you will.
thanks for posting DaBurgh... some food for thought that's for sure. I did notice on the news last night that 50,000 refugees have made there way to Russia and I suppose they must be the pro Russian Ukrainians that appear to be in the East of the country. Of course 50,000 is a lot of people but 1.7 million have headed west (so far). An awful lot of sh1t happens all over the world all of the time. Its complicated but for me looking at this war in isolation the vast majority of Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia, the tactics employed by the Russian army are dispicable, virtually the whole world is against what Putin has done.
[Post edited 8 Mar 2022 10:38]
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:24 - Mar 8 with 2026 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:26 - Mar 8 by Orthodox_Hoop
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that; however, wars in general - especially civil wars (I'd class this in that bracket given the historic relationship between Ukraine and Russia) can get get very nasty and very murky quickly with foul play on all sides. This makes it extremely hard for the exact truth to be disseminated on the spot while bullet and shells are flying about. Our position in the west, quite rightly, is that Putin's war on Ukraine is very wrong, and therefore Russia is bad and must be seen as such at all costs in our media. There is no room in people's minds right now to even consider that our media would even consider manipulating the truth - because the wider truth is more important. I've seen it first hand all before in the 90's during the conflict in the Balkans - events that were initially being blamed on one side in the media turned out to not be so clear cut after all (albeit a few years after the event):
This is in no way an attempt to whitewash what's happening right now in Ukraine. I'm in no doubt whatsoever personally that innocent Ukrainians are being killed by Putin, and they need all our support - but I just don't trust any form of propaganda whether it's Russian or ours.
Classing this as a civil war is to deny Ukraine’s legitimacy as a sovereign state; very reminiscent of the Kremlin’s line. The historic relationship between Russia and Ukraine, as you so euphemistically put it, is one of occupation, repression and terror - by Russia, on Ukraine.
As you are so keen to keep dragging the Balkans into this, I note reports that Belgrade is the only city in Europe to have had a demonstration in favour of Russia’s war. I imagine these are the same people that buy in to the genocide denial narrative still ongoing in Serbia.
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:13 - Mar 8 by wood_hoop
@DaveB
I think we will disagree on this point. I feel that the MSM is having an awful lot of pressure put on them by the Government on so many things that they must be as frustrated as I am.
One minute we have the BBC wanting to be defunded via the licence fee, the next they are being lauded for their reporters risking their lives in the Ukraine.
Yet we have a company funded by a Russian that there are serious doubts about (GB News) that is allowed to spill bile across our country on a free to air service.
If you check out who owns our daily newspapers half are ownrd by two billionaires.
No doubt in years to come historians will be amazed at how our MSM was shackled by so few, with political views paramount to the populist views that permutate the views of the rich elite and the politicians who are their lapdogs.
I personally hate the term main stream media, think it's ludicrous as if there is some sort of underground media where the truth really is
I agree on the newspapers though and thats been the case for decades. For as long as I can remember whichever party The Sun supports is usually the one who gets in and stays in power
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:52 - Mar 8 with 1819 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:24 - Mar 8 by kensalriser
Classing this as a civil war is to deny Ukraine’s legitimacy as a sovereign state; very reminiscent of the Kremlin’s line. The historic relationship between Russia and Ukraine, as you so euphemistically put it, is one of occupation, repression and terror - by Russia, on Ukraine.
As you are so keen to keep dragging the Balkans into this, I note reports that Belgrade is the only city in Europe to have had a demonstration in favour of Russia’s war. I imagine these are the same people that buy in to the genocide denial narrative still ongoing in Serbia.
"The historic relationship between Russia and Ukraine, as you so euphemistically put it, is one of occupation, repression and terror - by Russia, on Ukraine." Agreed. I was thinking more in terms of their close Slavic ties. One only needs to look at their language and alphabet. A bit like let's say Serbs and North Macedonians. Do you disagree with this?
As for the demonstration in Belgrade - I'd also agree with you and that point too. Unfortunately, Serbia never had its Ceaușescu moment, and is still very much in the grip of the same elite that ran the country during communism (much like Russia) so instead of that we now have ultra nationalism to keep the masses clear of the real problems facing them such as quality of life, etc. I only 'dragged the Balkans into this' as you put it, to demonstrate how it is a possible for some truths to be altered to serve the wider truth, something I'm sure you understood if you'd read my post carefully. Admittedly, I could have used another example, but it just happened to be the first that popped into my head.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:21 - Mar 8 with 1748 views
Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:52 - Mar 8 by DaBurgh
I thought this was important to post. Make of it what you will.
These kind of videos always amuse me a bit, I mean it's not as if the media covered up Lybia, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan etc, they were all widely reported, various governments and leaders heavily criticised at the time. It's not as if this bloke has found this all out himself, One of the reasons so much is known about those other conflicts if because they were covered by the news and some excellent journalists to ensure the truth came out
When the bombing started in Ukraine it would be a bit weird if the news programmes said this is bad but lets look back at what other countries have done in the past.
Even in the midst of all this I've seen plenty of criticism on tv of the current prime minister and his links to Russia.
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Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 16:08 - Mar 8 with 1670 views
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