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This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
This post has been edited by an administrator
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
General Election Thread on 16:43 - May 28 by QPR_John
You obviously think you will win even with the knowledge that we will be in the Schengen area and will be forced to adopt the Euro should we be allowed to re-join. It seems to me that those wanting a return to the EU not only think it was a bad idea to leave but in reality believe there is no circumstance where we could leave no matter what Brussels inflicted on us with majority voting. Is such an organisation a little dangerous. We voted to join the Common Market not what the organisation became and when given the choice we voted out. The EU like any other such organisation wants more and more power until it will eventually kill itself.
Maybe he just thinks it's ironic that people hail the democracy of the referendum but refused to have a further referendum once the options for what Brexit looked like were fleshed out.
If it's so great why don't we turn the general election into a referendum. It would have to be a yes/no type question s I guess do you want to stick with the conservatives or not? If/when conservatives lose we'll leave it to the MPs to decide what happens after that and the public just have to live with it.
The Liberal Democrats want to stop companies polluting our rivers and seas. It's a shame that when politicians were saying that leaving the EU will allow us to set our own rules they weren't clearer than it meant lowering our water standards so swimmers would get sick and we'd have to send bottled water to Devon. Who could have seen that coming?
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General Election Thread on 08:05 - May 29 with 2248 views
General Election Thread on 07:54 - May 29 by QPR_Jim
Maybe he just thinks it's ironic that people hail the democracy of the referendum but refused to have a further referendum once the options for what Brexit looked like were fleshed out.
If it's so great why don't we turn the general election into a referendum. It would have to be a yes/no type question s I guess do you want to stick with the conservatives or not? If/when conservatives lose we'll leave it to the MPs to decide what happens after that and the public just have to live with it.
The Liberal Democrats want to stop companies polluting our rivers and seas. It's a shame that when politicians were saying that leaving the EU will allow us to set our own rules they weren't clearer than it meant lowering our water standards so swimmers would get sick and we'd have to send bottled water to Devon. Who could have seen that coming?
I find the rhetoric around Brexit not being democratic completely bizarre. It got the most votes ever and biggest mandate in British political history.
People voted to leave the EU and for the politicians to negotiate the exit, the whole call for another referendum for different options was clearly to try and wangle a choice that was essentially little to no Brexit at all.
If they'd won the vote they'd be no calls for another referendum every time the terms changed with the EU for closer union which happened regularly for 40 years. The hypocrisy is ridiculous and particularly grating after 8 years of the same rhetoric repeated over and over again.
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General Election Thread on 08:15 - May 29 with 2225 views
General Election Thread on 20:32 - May 28 by numptydumpty
I am guessing the lowest percentage of actual votes cast is lowest in the youngest age range ie 18 to 24.
I was reasonably intelligent as a 16 to 18 year old but most of my views around politics at the time came from Spitting Image and I was far from responsible.
But I guess a great percentage of voters dont look deeply into what is promised and what is expected anyhow
But then also there is the question as to what we are actually voting for and who exactly we are voting for, to implement their specific policies and who we actually believe will do what they say
Its almost like we are voting for who we dont like the least !!!
Not great options
But if you are legally allowed to engage in sexual intercourse with the responsibility of birth control, then voting isnt really that much of a responsibility by way of comparison.
[Post edited 28 May 20:34]
Getting your views from Spitting Image is probably no worse than getting them from the Sun, Mirror, Express, Mail, Sky News, GB News etc as so many do.
There's a reason why so many of these outlets put deliberately misleading headlines on stories than often when you read them bear little resemblance to the title, its because so many don't bother to read beyond it.
At least Spitting Image lampooned all sides. Too many media outlets are essentially just ongoing campaigns for political parties, mainly the tories.
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General Election Thread on 09:05 - May 29 with 2118 views
General Election Thread on 08:15 - May 29 by SydneyRs
Getting your views from Spitting Image is probably no worse than getting them from the Sun, Mirror, Express, Mail, Sky News, GB News etc as so many do.
There's a reason why so many of these outlets put deliberately misleading headlines on stories than often when you read them bear little resemblance to the title, its because so many don't bother to read beyond it.
At least Spitting Image lampooned all sides. Too many media outlets are essentially just ongoing campaigns for political parties, mainly the tories.
Even worse is getting your politics from social media.
I thnk there's an awful lot of sustained campaigning disguised as normal conversation. I also follow a predominantly female forum and nearly every day at the moment there's a political post shoe-horned into a completely irrelevant subject area. For example, someone talking about cheeky f*ckers and there's a post about Cheri Blair getting freebies. It doesn't happen outside of an election, so I really think it's a thing.
It worked really well for Brexit or anti-vaxxing - you just repeat a made up fact ad nauseum and eventually normal people start repeating it as the truth. It's very dispiriting All those people who want to appear in the know or who want to believe they are 'independent thinkers' - for that read conspiracy theorists - lap up all this stuff.
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General Election Thread on 09:27 - May 29 with 2050 views
Even worse is getting your politics from social media.
I thnk there's an awful lot of sustained campaigning disguised as normal conversation. I also follow a predominantly female forum and nearly every day at the moment there's a political post shoe-horned into a completely irrelevant subject area. For example, someone talking about cheeky f*ckers and there's a post about Cheri Blair getting freebies. It doesn't happen outside of an election, so I really think it's a thing.
It worked really well for Brexit or anti-vaxxing - you just repeat a made up fact ad nauseum and eventually normal people start repeating it as the truth. It's very dispiriting All those people who want to appear in the know or who want to believe they are 'independent thinkers' - for that read conspiracy theorists - lap up all this stuff.
"All those people who want to appear in the know or who want to believe they are 'independent thinkers' - for that read conspiracy theorists - lap up all this stuff."
I'm sure people who have alternative opinions to those of the mainstream orthodoxy feel exactly the same way about your opinions, Nix.
General Election Thread on 09:27 - May 29 by hubble
"All those people who want to appear in the know or who want to believe they are 'independent thinkers' - for that read conspiracy theorists - lap up all this stuff."
I'm sure people who have alternative opinions to those of the mainstream orthodoxy feel exactly the same way about your opinions, Nix.
It seems anyone that deviates even slightly from 100% unthinkingly following the BBC/Guardian line is a far right conspiracy theorist that gets all their views from the Daily Mail or believes Russian disinformation.
It's depressing, but they genuinely do believe that unfortunately.
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General Election Thread on 09:49 - May 29 with 1946 views
An early observation of this thread from me is that there are a lot of unhappy people who have been given absolutely everything they wanted in recent years.
General Election Thread on 09:49 - May 29 by BazzaInTheLoft
An early observation of this thread from me is that there are a lot of unhappy people who have been given absolutely everything they wanted in recent years.
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function - F. Scott Fitzgerald.
General Election Thread on 10:21 - May 29 by E17hoop
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function - F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Smells like a trout farm in here
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General Election Thread on 10:56 - May 29 with 1771 views
General Election Thread on 09:27 - May 29 by hubble
"All those people who want to appear in the know or who want to believe they are 'independent thinkers' - for that read conspiracy theorists - lap up all this stuff."
I'm sure people who have alternative opinions to those of the mainstream orthodoxy feel exactly the same way about your opinions, Nix.
Yep, and good for them. Not saying they're not allowed to. Just that as soon as I read someone saying they are 'independent thinkers' I see it followed by some weird theory presented as fact.
I'm not presenting my opinions as fact. Reading something on FB is not evidence.
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General Election Thread on 10:56 - May 29 with 1742 views
General Election Thread on 09:49 - May 29 by BazzaInTheLoft
An early observation of this thread from me is that there are a lot of unhappy people who have been given absolutely everything they wanted in recent years.
Yeah, when we voted to keep your lot out in 2019, we all did so in the hope the Chinese communist party would release a biological weapon on us just to spice things up a bit. You caught us, Sherlock.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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General Election Thread on 15:05 - May 29 with 1526 views
General Election Thread on 16:56 - May 28 by SheffieldHoop
I've always expected we would be asked again. Standard EU tactic. A second referendum was always going to come eventually, regardless of whether anybody is seriously asking for it or not. And atm I can't see that many people seriously are.
I'm not sure this country has been sufficiently engineered and propagandized to prevent another "leave" vote, although it does seem to be in the works. I can't see that many people in Sunderland or Sheffield or any other Brexity town have changed their view on it. These people were abandoned while we were very much in the EU and nothing has changed since we left. The EU migrants have been replaced by Non-EU migrants. It's now time for those abandoned people to come to terms with a managerial elite that hates them (and basically wants them substituted for a more compliant slave class)
We would only be asked again if the UK parliament wants it - so not sure why that is an EU tactic? The EU has moved on from Brexit, it is our GDP that has taken a hit.
You say Sunderland, Sheffield etc were abandoned - you are right. But why do you say they were abandoned by the EU? The EU pumped huge amounts of money into poorer British regions but never got credit because the British govt liked to pass it off as UK money. Only 1.5% of our public spending went to the EU so surely it would be a bit unfair to expect the EU to turn round the decline in English northern towns on its own surely?
So you accept that EU migrants have been replaced by non-EU migrants? You are right - under this Conservative govt we have actually had record migration because the Conservatives wants cheap labour, but it comes out with vile anti-migrant rhetoric to try to win votes. Planes to Rwanda, "the boats" etc all account for a tiny number of migrants people compared to the number of immigrants this government welcomes in legally.
So given you got your Brexit, your town is still abandoned and you have got more immigration than ever (if you think that's a bad thing) how has the Conservative Brexit worked for you?
[Post edited 29 May 15:43]
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General Election Thread on 16:06 - May 29 with 1373 views
General Election Thread on 15:41 - May 29 by Stainrod
We would only be asked again if the UK parliament wants it - so not sure why that is an EU tactic? The EU has moved on from Brexit, it is our GDP that has taken a hit.
You say Sunderland, Sheffield etc were abandoned - you are right. But why do you say they were abandoned by the EU? The EU pumped huge amounts of money into poorer British regions but never got credit because the British govt liked to pass it off as UK money. Only 1.5% of our public spending went to the EU so surely it would be a bit unfair to expect the EU to turn round the decline in English northern towns on its own surely?
So you accept that EU migrants have been replaced by non-EU migrants? You are right - under this Conservative govt we have actually had record migration because the Conservatives wants cheap labour, but it comes out with vile anti-migrant rhetoric to try to win votes. Planes to Rwanda, "the boats" etc all account for a tiny number of migrants people compared to the number of immigrants this government welcomes in legally.
So given you got your Brexit, your town is still abandoned and you have got more immigration than ever (if you think that's a bad thing) how has the Conservative Brexit worked for you?
[Post edited 29 May 15:43]
I don't really understand the thinking behind your post. Where have I said the Conservative Brexit vote has worked? It hasn't, for anybody, which is why they're about to go from the largest majority in my lifetime to (fingers crossed) Zero Seats. I thought I was being quite clear about that.
But - This is because they've just carried on Blairism for the last 13 years while pretending they aren't, or claiming it's too difficult to stop it now. I indicated this in my first post on this thread. The New Labour consensus has just been carried on, while people voted against it election after election. Why is that? Why is it that we explicitly vote to lower immigration and they stick 2 fingers up at us and increase it anyway? Why is it that no other party seems able or willing to capitalise on this highly popular "we've had quite enough Immigration for the time being" point of view?
Brexit was a rejection of Blairism. The EU is Blairism. Perhaps I'm giving the man too much credit - But why does everything wrong with this country appear to be the legacy of Tony Blair? There are several other inaccurate or completely false points in your post but let's save Clive from tit for tat
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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General Election Thread on 16:12 - May 29 with 1374 views
I have read and heard many people say "They're all the same". I've seen countless instances of people saying they don't trust the Labour leader of the day, and it's always slightly done my head in.
Not digging at you - but what is it exactly that Starmer has said or done the means you don't trust him? What do you think he's lying about or hiding? On the flip side - what did Boris Johnson do to earn your trust when you voted for him last time? He seems to me to be entirely untrustworthy for lots of well publicised reasons, the list of which begins before he even became our Mayor.
I personally want a moderate, left of centre party with a serious person as the main representative of the country I live in. My sensibilites are a little more left leaning than the Labour Party currently are, but I understand they are trying to take traditional right of centre voters along for the ride too, and any step back towards the centre ground is a step in the right direction to me.
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General Election Thread on 16:20 - May 29 with 1324 views
General Election Thread on 16:12 - May 29 by NW10Hoop
I have read and heard many people say "They're all the same". I've seen countless instances of people saying they don't trust the Labour leader of the day, and it's always slightly done my head in.
Not digging at you - but what is it exactly that Starmer has said or done the means you don't trust him? What do you think he's lying about or hiding? On the flip side - what did Boris Johnson do to earn your trust when you voted for him last time? He seems to me to be entirely untrustworthy for lots of well publicised reasons, the list of which begins before he even became our Mayor.
I personally want a moderate, left of centre party with a serious person as the main representative of the country I live in. My sensibilites are a little more left leaning than the Labour Party currently are, but I understand they are trying to take traditional right of centre voters along for the ride too, and any step back towards the centre ground is a step in the right direction to me.
Weather cock, nobody knows what he stands for. Huge risk voting for somebody like that whichever angle you're coming from. "Country first, Party second" - You fckin what mate? What does that mean? Boris at least indicated he had a backbone in him - Sadly it transpired he doesn't
[Post edited 29 May 16:22]
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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General Election Thread on 16:30 - May 29 with 1277 views
General Election Thread on 16:06 - May 29 by SheffieldHoop
I don't really understand the thinking behind your post. Where have I said the Conservative Brexit vote has worked? It hasn't, for anybody, which is why they're about to go from the largest majority in my lifetime to (fingers crossed) Zero Seats. I thought I was being quite clear about that.
But - This is because they've just carried on Blairism for the last 13 years while pretending they aren't, or claiming it's too difficult to stop it now. I indicated this in my first post on this thread. The New Labour consensus has just been carried on, while people voted against it election after election. Why is that? Why is it that we explicitly vote to lower immigration and they stick 2 fingers up at us and increase it anyway? Why is it that no other party seems able or willing to capitalise on this highly popular "we've had quite enough Immigration for the time being" point of view?
Brexit was a rejection of Blairism. The EU is Blairism. Perhaps I'm giving the man too much credit - But why does everything wrong with this country appear to be the legacy of Tony Blair? There are several other inaccurate or completely false points in your post but let's save Clive from tit for tat
Apologies Sheffield I was only responding to your last post and have not read the first one. If I have misconstrued your arguments, I stand corrected. Certainly not seeking tit for tat.
I think you are right that the EU was BLAMED for a lot of what wasn't working in Britain, which included stagnating wages. But my point is I don't think it SHOULD have been blamed for that. Even when we were in the EU about half our immigration came from outside the EU. We had (and continue to have) loads of bi-lateral treaties with other countries allowing free movement.
Generally speaking, EU migration brought in people with above average skills who were net contributors to the economy; migrants from outside the EU were generally less skilled and were/ are slight drains on the economy measured by GDP contribution.
So if immigration was a problem - I'm not arguing that point either way - there were some relatively easy fixes the Conservatives could have implemented without the economic self-harm of Brexit.
To bring it back to the election, it depresses me that Brexit remains the elephant in the room. Sunak must know its been a disaster. Starmer definitely knows its been a disaster - but both of them are choosing to pretend its been a triumph, so are not addressing a key reason for our economic malaise. And so many towns in the UK are denied the economic investment they badly need.
Anyway, peace to you and naturally respect your opinions.
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General Election Thread on 16:38 - May 29 with 1242 views
General Election Thread on 16:12 - May 29 by NW10Hoop
I have read and heard many people say "They're all the same". I've seen countless instances of people saying they don't trust the Labour leader of the day, and it's always slightly done my head in.
Not digging at you - but what is it exactly that Starmer has said or done the means you don't trust him? What do you think he's lying about or hiding? On the flip side - what did Boris Johnson do to earn your trust when you voted for him last time? He seems to me to be entirely untrustworthy for lots of well publicised reasons, the list of which begins before he even became our Mayor.
I personally want a moderate, left of centre party with a serious person as the main representative of the country I live in. My sensibilites are a little more left leaning than the Labour Party currently are, but I understand they are trying to take traditional right of centre voters along for the ride too, and any step back towards the centre ground is a step in the right direction to me.
Like a lot of these things we have the US to thank. There’s nothing positive for the Tories to campaign on so their cheerleaders in the media/social media pump out this ‘they’re all the same’ nonsense and people are mug enough to believe it or want to believe it. It gives the Galloway rabble a similar stick to beat Labour with and completely ignores the bloke’s record before and during politics. It’s boring and predictable but it works.
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General Election Thread on 16:41 - May 29 with 1217 views
I'll give you some of my, and I know many others, reasons for not trusting Starmer.
When he ran for the Labour leadership, Starmer pledged to bring public services - rail, mail, energy and water - back into public ownership but has since u-turned on all of that.
One of Starmer’s other leadership pledges was stopping the creeping involvement of the private sector in the U.K.’s publicly-funded National Health Service. He's u-turned on that as well.
Starmer pushed for a second referendum on Brexit before the 2019 election. When he ran for the top Labour job, he didn’t renew that but did vow to “defend free movement as we leave the EU.” But he's since ruled out accepting the return of freedom of movement for EU citizens.
Starmer pledged to abolish university tuition fees when he ran for leader. U-turned on that
The first nine words of Starmer’s list of 2020 leadership pledges couldn’t have been clearer: “Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners.” He's not going to do that now.
I could go on as there are quite a few other pledges and promises Starmer has reneged on I'm sure it's getting a bit tedious. But I have to just mention how his position on Gaza has disgusted many labour supporters, myself included.
So, in short, it's impossible to trust a leader whose promises he never keeps and whose principles are as weak as piss water.
BTW, I was brought up in NW10 and still love the area.
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General Election Thread on 17:21 - May 29 with 1152 views
General Election Thread on 16:30 - May 29 by Stainrod
Apologies Sheffield I was only responding to your last post and have not read the first one. If I have misconstrued your arguments, I stand corrected. Certainly not seeking tit for tat.
I think you are right that the EU was BLAMED for a lot of what wasn't working in Britain, which included stagnating wages. But my point is I don't think it SHOULD have been blamed for that. Even when we were in the EU about half our immigration came from outside the EU. We had (and continue to have) loads of bi-lateral treaties with other countries allowing free movement.
Generally speaking, EU migration brought in people with above average skills who were net contributors to the economy; migrants from outside the EU were generally less skilled and were/ are slight drains on the economy measured by GDP contribution.
So if immigration was a problem - I'm not arguing that point either way - there were some relatively easy fixes the Conservatives could have implemented without the economic self-harm of Brexit.
To bring it back to the election, it depresses me that Brexit remains the elephant in the room. Sunak must know its been a disaster. Starmer definitely knows its been a disaster - but both of them are choosing to pretend its been a triumph, so are not addressing a key reason for our economic malaise. And so many towns in the UK are denied the economic investment they badly need.
Anyway, peace to you and naturally respect your opinions.
The EU was blamed for some stuff it shouldn't have been and Brexit is blamed for a lot that it shouldn't be as well, for example poor GDP growth when the UK has done better than most large countries in the EU. Where is this economic disaster happening exactly? All European countries are suffering at the moment.
The political class seem determined to have as high immigration as they possibly can regardless of who votes for what. The Tories got in after promising to reduce immigration to 10k and have had net immigration of 700k in one year! Same in Italy the "far right" got in purely to cut immigration and then immediately changed their minds once they were in and decided they wanted to increase it suddenly. Seems to be happening all over the Western world not just here, we can all speculate as to why.
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General Election Thread on 17:38 - May 29 with 1109 views
I'll give you some of my, and I know many others, reasons for not trusting Starmer.
When he ran for the Labour leadership, Starmer pledged to bring public services - rail, mail, energy and water - back into public ownership but has since u-turned on all of that.
One of Starmer’s other leadership pledges was stopping the creeping involvement of the private sector in the U.K.’s publicly-funded National Health Service. He's u-turned on that as well.
Starmer pushed for a second referendum on Brexit before the 2019 election. When he ran for the top Labour job, he didn’t renew that but did vow to “defend free movement as we leave the EU.” But he's since ruled out accepting the return of freedom of movement for EU citizens.
Starmer pledged to abolish university tuition fees when he ran for leader. U-turned on that
The first nine words of Starmer’s list of 2020 leadership pledges couldn’t have been clearer: “Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners.” He's not going to do that now.
I could go on as there are quite a few other pledges and promises Starmer has reneged on I'm sure it's getting a bit tedious. But I have to just mention how his position on Gaza has disgusted many labour supporters, myself included.
So, in short, it's impossible to trust a leader whose promises he never keeps and whose principles are as weak as piss water.
BTW, I was brought up in NW10 and still love the area.
Real Politik though,
To win an election in your party you have to carry the left if you want to get elected, and then win over the centre right (because you have to win seats from the other side) to win a general election,
The opposite is the same for the Tories.
If you get elected to leader playing to your party activists and then continue that to the country you dont get elected.
Examples for Labour
Foot Kinnock Milliband Corbyn
For the Tories
Hague Duncan Smith Howard Sunak
Blair won leaning right but with some left populist meat (minimum wage, education etc) and the government moved left over time especially economically
Boris won through a combo of Brexit, Farage standing his party down and leaning left economically
Cameron won leaning left socially
3
General Election Thread on 17:41 - May 29 with 1101 views
General Election Thread on 17:21 - May 29 by Clive_Anderson
The EU was blamed for some stuff it shouldn't have been and Brexit is blamed for a lot that it shouldn't be as well, for example poor GDP growth when the UK has done better than most large countries in the EU. Where is this economic disaster happening exactly? All European countries are suffering at the moment.
The political class seem determined to have as high immigration as they possibly can regardless of who votes for what. The Tories got in after promising to reduce immigration to 10k and have had net immigration of 700k in one year! Same in Italy the "far right" got in purely to cut immigration and then immediately changed their minds once they were in and decided they wanted to increase it suddenly. Seems to be happening all over the Western world not just here, we can all speculate as to why.
I dont think there is any speculation to it.
You have a demographic problem. The post war baby boomers have a disproportionate number, they are ageing, they use more healthcare services and will not be economically productive. The younger generations passed wealth to the boomers through asset price rises namely property. In addition additional costs were added in the terms of education costs. The rise in the property market which makes many many things more expensive from rents to childcare to anything that needs land, has led to people having children much later in life and less of them.
In short you dont have enough people economically active to support the cost of a large ageing population living longer. You either drastically increase productivity, have people of working age come into the country, or be economically poorer.
You can encourage people to have more babies but that takes 25 years to flow through.
AI might impact productivity in a positive way but then you have to redistribute the wealth.
We've known this for 30 years and the same has happened at other points in history all over the world as well.
The problem is politicians are too scared to tell people the truth, and its all to easy for populists to sell the lie that immigrants are taking away when in truth they are maintaining our wealth
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General Election Thread on 18:19 - May 29 with 1039 views
General Election Thread on 17:21 - May 29 by Clive_Anderson
The EU was blamed for some stuff it shouldn't have been and Brexit is blamed for a lot that it shouldn't be as well, for example poor GDP growth when the UK has done better than most large countries in the EU. Where is this economic disaster happening exactly? All European countries are suffering at the moment.
The political class seem determined to have as high immigration as they possibly can regardless of who votes for what. The Tories got in after promising to reduce immigration to 10k and have had net immigration of 700k in one year! Same in Italy the "far right" got in purely to cut immigration and then immediately changed their minds once they were in and decided they wanted to increase it suddenly. Seems to be happening all over the Western world not just here, we can all speculate as to why.
The official organisation that monitors trade for the government says trade over the longer term will fall by 15% as a result of Brexit. Our exports to the EU have fallen by 9% since Brexit and we have not made up for this (surprise, surprise) by exporting to countries further away. Our economy is now growing very slightly more than the EU average - having had a much longer and deeper recession - but were it not for Brexit there would be more trade still and we would therefore be richer as a result.
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