| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 160802 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 16:34 - Jul 9 with 2364 views | nadera78 |
| General Election Thread on 16:24 - Jul 9 by CamberleyR |
You don't remember Cameron & Osborne's political choice of austerity then in the first years of the coalition government? |
Cameron & Osborne....and Clegg |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 18:22 - Jul 9 with 2260 views | FDC |
| General Election Thread on 09:42 - Jul 9 by Juzzie |
Although people's alliances tends to shift from left to right as they get older, maybe this crop of OAP Tory's will die out leaving the next lot of OAP's more central/central-left leaning?
I guess we'll know in the next 10-15 years.
I'm just waiting for the results from last week to come out to see the turnout of the 18-25 age group. |
The idea that people just shift to the right with age is a bit of an oversimplification, people tend to vote in their (understanding of their) rationale self interest, and there has been a big intergenerational divide in wealth in the past few decades, access to home ownership etc etc. Such that boomers (who might have had radical social attitudes in their youth) are disproportionately well served by conservative politics in the present, whereas younger (= anyone below the age of about 50!) voters are, in the present, disproportionately better served by a more progressive politics that is redistributive to some extent, disrupts the status quo etc
But you've only got to go back to 1983 when more 18 to 34 year olds voted for the Tories than Labour to see that age does not necessarily map onto left and right. [Post edited 9 Jul 18:27]
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| General Election Thread on 00:10 - Jul 10 with 2028 views | numptydumpty |
Everyone seems to talk about the effect of Reform and Farage on the Tory vote collapse
But in reality Ed Davey proving his party is a serious and powerful force in British politics by Bungie Jumping and going down waterslides
Liberals 72 seats
Reform 4 seats |  |
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| General Election Thread on 07:10 - Jul 10 with 1894 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 00:10 - Jul 10 by numptydumpty |
Everyone seems to talk about the effect of Reform and Farage on the Tory vote collapse
But in reality Ed Davey proving his party is a serious and powerful force in British politics by Bungie Jumping and going down waterslides
Liberals 72 seats
Reform 4 seats |
Whatever anybody thinks of the Lib Dems I thought the bits Davey did in the campaign on the plight and life of carers was great.
A really well executed bit of campaigning, well delivered, by somebody who has lived that issue his whole life with his family circumstances.
It's a huge issue in this country as well - care in old age, end of life care, adult social care, care for disabled relatives etc. It's one of the main reasons our hospitals are so clogged up, people are taking up beds because we've no other place to send them and we lack the ability to care for them in their own home. So you could solve a whole range of problems around waiting lists, ambulance times, hospital capacity etc, if you could sort that out. Also people on long term sick, benefits etc which really seems to get people's backs up.
And yet our media still aren't giving him or it the time of day. He's got 70+ seats and not only is the media agenda dominated by Reform, I'm currently still seeing more from Suella Braverman screaming on than I am Ed Davey. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:24 - Jul 10 with 1873 views | Gus_iom |
| General Election Thread on 07:10 - Jul 10 by Northernr |
Whatever anybody thinks of the Lib Dems I thought the bits Davey did in the campaign on the plight and life of carers was great.
A really well executed bit of campaigning, well delivered, by somebody who has lived that issue his whole life with his family circumstances.
It's a huge issue in this country as well - care in old age, end of life care, adult social care, care for disabled relatives etc. It's one of the main reasons our hospitals are so clogged up, people are taking up beds because we've no other place to send them and we lack the ability to care for them in their own home. So you could solve a whole range of problems around waiting lists, ambulance times, hospital capacity etc, if you could sort that out. Also people on long term sick, benefits etc which really seems to get people's backs up.
And yet our media still aren't giving him or it the time of day. He's got 70+ seats and not only is the media agenda dominated by Reform, I'm currently still seeing more from Suella Braverman screaming on than I am Ed Davey. |
Totally agree with you - and then - on social care and carers, but I'm not sure Davey"s campaign did him any favours in terms of being taken seriously | | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:19 - Jul 10 with 1823 views | Konk |
| General Election Thread on 07:24 - Jul 10 by Gus_iom |
Totally agree with you - and then - on social care and carers, but I'm not sure Davey"s campaign did him any favours in terms of being taken seriously |
Got him a bit of coverage, though, which is a struggle for Lib Dem's anyway, but especially with Farage on the scene again. And being an absolute clown was always cited as a reason that a lot of people liked Johnson. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| General Election Thread on 09:32 - Jul 10 with 1718 views | CiderwithRsie |
| General Election Thread on 07:24 - Jul 10 by Gus_iom |
Totally agree with you - and then - on social care and carers, but I'm not sure Davey"s campaign did him any favours in terms of being taken seriously |
Kinda missing the point, though, Gus.
If your'e leader of the LDs, getting the media to get their tongues out of Farage's arse and report on you at all is the issue, as Clive alludes.
They put the deputy leader up in all the TV debates to talk seriously about policy. Does anyone here (apart from me) even know their name without googling?
A polling company blind tested all the parties policies and found 8 out of the 10 most popular were in the LD manifesto. Did any coverage on the LD manifesto follow in the media? Not that I saw. | | | |
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| General Election Thread on 09:42 - Jul 10 with 1706 views | CiderwithRsie |
| General Election Thread on 18:22 - Jul 9 by FDC |
The idea that people just shift to the right with age is a bit of an oversimplification, people tend to vote in their (understanding of their) rationale self interest, and there has been a big intergenerational divide in wealth in the past few decades, access to home ownership etc etc. Such that boomers (who might have had radical social attitudes in their youth) are disproportionately well served by conservative politics in the present, whereas younger (= anyone below the age of about 50!) voters are, in the present, disproportionately better served by a more progressive politics that is redistributive to some extent, disrupts the status quo etc
But you've only got to go back to 1983 when more 18 to 34 year olds voted for the Tories than Labour to see that age does not necessarily map onto left and right. [Post edited 9 Jul 18:27]
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The other thing is that what was Left-wing when you were young becomes mainstream when you're middle aged and maybe even a bit Right-wing when you're old, because the rest of the world moves on while you slow down.
Could give an example from my own lifetime but I won't in case it starts a riot on here, but time was when women even having a vote was considered dangerous radical nonsense. My 90+ year old mum mutters occasionally about feminists going too far today but she's not about to go back to how women were treated in the 50s. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:28 - Jul 10 with 1576 views | Phildo |
| General Election Thread on 07:10 - Jul 10 by Northernr |
Whatever anybody thinks of the Lib Dems I thought the bits Davey did in the campaign on the plight and life of carers was great.
A really well executed bit of campaigning, well delivered, by somebody who has lived that issue his whole life with his family circumstances.
It's a huge issue in this country as well - care in old age, end of life care, adult social care, care for disabled relatives etc. It's one of the main reasons our hospitals are so clogged up, people are taking up beds because we've no other place to send them and we lack the ability to care for them in their own home. So you could solve a whole range of problems around waiting lists, ambulance times, hospital capacity etc, if you could sort that out. Also people on long term sick, benefits etc which really seems to get people's backs up.
And yet our media still aren't giving him or it the time of day. He's got 70+ seats and not only is the media agenda dominated by Reform, I'm currently still seeing more from Suella Braverman screaming on than I am Ed Davey. |
The Tories seem to think they just need the reform votes back - but the lib dems are second in a lot of those blue wall seats. They need to have a good look at that for next time or will become an irrelevance over time. My own impression is they do not seem to have a coherent set of ideas for what they stand for any more. I was told a few years ago by someone who was a senior civil servant that there was a lot of coke consumption by a fair few at the top and the last few years seemed to bear that out. But that seems to be everywhere now. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:41 - Jul 10 with 1416 views | StJude82 |
To get this governments lack of a mandate into context: They actually polled 33.7% (9.7m) of the vote that's 1 in 5 of the electorate (20%) due to the low turnout. Over 500,000 votes less than Corbyn in 2019. Some mandate. More like the small minority ruling the vast majority. Brace yourselves. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 16:21 - Jul 10 with 1264 views | Esox_Lucius |
| General Election Thread on 13:41 - Jul 10 by StJude82 |
To get this governments lack of a mandate into context: They actually polled 33.7% (9.7m) of the vote that's 1 in 5 of the electorate (20%) due to the low turnout. Over 500,000 votes less than Corbyn in 2019. Some mandate. More like the small minority ruling the vast majority. Brace yourselves. |
Look at their appointments. A big clue about what sort of socialist lefty government we will be having. Wes Streeting already sounding the death knell for POS NHS treatment. The AG a huge Israel supporter.
Two years ago I posted on Twitter that Starmer was a Tufton Street cuckoo sent in to remove all traces of socialism so that Labour could be voted into power and it wouldn't upset the status quo much. Almost worryingly, I didn't get many who tried to shout me down and now it all appears to be coming to fruition. I doubt the Tory appointed head and governors of the BBC will be replaced any time soon either.
Lobbying should be called by what it really is; bribery. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| General Election Thread on 17:12 - Jul 10 with 1182 views | stevec |
| General Election Thread on 16:21 - Jul 10 by Esox_Lucius |
Look at their appointments. A big clue about what sort of socialist lefty government we will be having. Wes Streeting already sounding the death knell for POS NHS treatment. The AG a huge Israel supporter.
Two years ago I posted on Twitter that Starmer was a Tufton Street cuckoo sent in to remove all traces of socialism so that Labour could be voted into power and it wouldn't upset the status quo much. Almost worryingly, I didn't get many who tried to shout me down and now it all appears to be coming to fruition. I doubt the Tory appointed head and governors of the BBC will be replaced any time soon either.
Lobbying should be called by what it really is; bribery. |
I’m curious how you would make your brand of Socialism work in the modern world.
I don’t mean a wish list, I mean specifically how you think a Socialist government would pay for it, because whichever way you look at things, they all need to be paid for.
I’ll start you off with the go to lazy option… tax the rich.
I should point out, however you tax the rich, it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the price of milk or a loaf of bread, or anything much else for that matter. It’s too insignificant.
So what other ideas does a socialist have to raise the money that fulfils their concept of what socialism should represent. Im not knocking the idea but im all ears as to how you would pay for it. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 17:35 - Jul 10 with 1132 views | loftupper |
| General Election Thread on 17:12 - Jul 10 by stevec |
I’m curious how you would make your brand of Socialism work in the modern world.
I don’t mean a wish list, I mean specifically how you think a Socialist government would pay for it, because whichever way you look at things, they all need to be paid for.
I’ll start you off with the go to lazy option… tax the rich.
I should point out, however you tax the rich, it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the price of milk or a loaf of bread, or anything much else for that matter. It’s too insignificant.
So what other ideas does a socialist have to raise the money that fulfils their concept of what socialism should represent. Im not knocking the idea but im all ears as to how you would pay for it. |
What about the revenues generated by the Water Companies, the power companies, the railways.. Is it not possible that a Country should be able to harness its resources to the benefit of all its people, rather than just the shareholders? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 17:45 - Jul 10 with 1118 views | stevec |
| General Election Thread on 17:35 - Jul 10 by loftupper |
What about the revenues generated by the Water Companies, the power companies, the railways.. Is it not possible that a Country should be able to harness its resources to the benefit of all its people, rather than just the shareholders? |
Absolutely, great call.
I don’t disagree with the concept of socialism but yours is a rare post that comes up with a sensible idea rather than a fantasy wish list that bankrupts the country. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 18:39 - Jul 10 with 1024 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:41 - Jul 10 by StJude82 |
To get this governments lack of a mandate into context: They actually polled 33.7% (9.7m) of the vote that's 1 in 5 of the electorate (20%) due to the low turnout. Over 500,000 votes less than Corbyn in 2019. Some mandate. More like the small minority ruling the vast majority. Brace yourselves. |
That's why we need to change the electoral system. But the Tories can't credibly complain about that because they have been the beneficiary of an electoral system that routinely wins them majorities on 36-38% of the vote. Tony Blair failed to find any solution but he correctly said that the 20th century was a Conservative century primarily due to the split in the centre left vote between Labour and the Liberals. This time progressives voted tactically to get rid of the Tories. And for the first time ever the right-wing vote was split and the first past the post electoral system punished the Tories for it. I've no idea about your party loyalties mate but if the Tories are pissed off about that, how do you think progressive voters have felt for most of the last century when we have had to put up with Tory govt after Tory govt! | | | |
| General Election Thread on 18:44 - Jul 10 with 1014 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 13:41 - Jul 10 by StJude82 |
To get this governments lack of a mandate into context: They actually polled 33.7% (9.7m) of the vote that's 1 in 5 of the electorate (20%) due to the low turnout. Over 500,000 votes less than Corbyn in 2019. Some mandate. More like the small minority ruling the vast majority. Brace yourselves. |
Put another way, about 45% more votes than second place.
The inevitability of the result suppressed turnout a bit no doubt (as it did in 2001) as the voter ID laws did. Not that it matters whatsoever. Smaller parties campaigned on “Labour winning is inevitable so vote for us” which isn’t one I’ve seen before. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:06 - Jul 10 with 887 views | Esox_Lucius |
| General Election Thread on 17:12 - Jul 10 by stevec |
I’m curious how you would make your brand of Socialism work in the modern world.
I don’t mean a wish list, I mean specifically how you think a Socialist government would pay for it, because whichever way you look at things, they all need to be paid for.
I’ll start you off with the go to lazy option… tax the rich.
I should point out, however you tax the rich, it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the price of milk or a loaf of bread, or anything much else for that matter. It’s too insignificant.
So what other ideas does a socialist have to raise the money that fulfils their concept of what socialism should represent. Im not knocking the idea but im all ears as to how you would pay for it. |
As Norway have done, become self sufficient in vital services such as water and electricity and fund the infrastructure construction by taxing the global giants operating in the UK on the sales in the UK
No hiding it in layers of shell companies etc. to avoid paying their share. The vast majority of this country have no say in how much tax they have pay so why should the global corporations be allowed to manipulate yheir tax burden.
We are an island nation and wave power alone could provide more than the country needs, coupled with existing wind and solar farms would permit exporting power to boost the coffers.
The biggest stumbling blocks are people behind bribing our elected MP's to force their agendas away from doing what is best for the country. There is no need for fossil fuel but some powerful bribers have convinced successive governments not to do anything about it.
I don't expect you to have any empathy for my ideas as they veer away from well entrenched thinking but it isn't a stream of consciousness dreaming with no idea of how to fund it. | |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| General Election Thread on 23:43 - Jul 10 with 793 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 21:06 - Jul 10 by Esox_Lucius |
As Norway have done, become self sufficient in vital services such as water and electricity and fund the infrastructure construction by taxing the global giants operating in the UK on the sales in the UK
No hiding it in layers of shell companies etc. to avoid paying their share. The vast majority of this country have no say in how much tax they have pay so why should the global corporations be allowed to manipulate yheir tax burden.
We are an island nation and wave power alone could provide more than the country needs, coupled with existing wind and solar farms would permit exporting power to boost the coffers.
The biggest stumbling blocks are people behind bribing our elected MP's to force their agendas away from doing what is best for the country. There is no need for fossil fuel but some powerful bribers have convinced successive governments not to do anything about it.
I don't expect you to have any empathy for my ideas as they veer away from well entrenched thinking but it isn't a stream of consciousness dreaming with no idea of how to fund it. |
Labour, to be fair, launched a sovereign wealth fund today. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 00:22 - Jul 11 with 758 views | E17hoop |
| General Election Thread on 17:35 - Jul 10 by loftupper |
What about the revenues generated by the Water Companies, the power companies, the railways.. Is it not possible that a Country should be able to harness its resources to the benefit of all its people, rather than just the shareholders? |
Is this a buy back or seizure?
If it's a buyback, how are you going to pay for it? There is no money so it'll need to be funded through loans which will spook the markets.
If it's a seizure, you're taking 8.5% of UK pension funds out of the pension economy - how are you going to replace this in capital and revenue terms? And 8.5% is JUST water. [Post edited 11 Jul 0:40]
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| General Election Thread on 01:09 - Jul 11 with 726 views | loftupper |
| General Election Thread on 00:22 - Jul 11 by E17hoop |
Is this a buy back or seizure?
If it's a buyback, how are you going to pay for it? There is no money so it'll need to be funded through loans which will spook the markets.
If it's a seizure, you're taking 8.5% of UK pension funds out of the pension economy - how are you going to replace this in capital and revenue terms? And 8.5% is JUST water. [Post edited 11 Jul 0:40]
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It would seem that you have decided that these are the only options. Its a strange way of communicating to decide what the answers are to your questions as you ask them.
Governments do have levers they can pull, borrowing to purchase a commodity is I would imagine different to borrowing to spend on say tax cuts. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 01:46 - Jul 11 with 704 views | E17hoop |
I'd love to know another way but can't identify a way which won't cause a meltdown in the economy or damage pension funds. How could it be done? | |
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| General Election Thread on 06:02 - Jul 11 with 600 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Problem is people are living longer, so pressure on state pensions, NHS, care etc is only going to grow. While things like stopping subsidies to fossil fuel companies (WTF) are fine, they can only be done once.
Rather than throwing money at issues like NHS etc, which only encourages waste, we probably need to be a little more creative.
Don't ask me though how it would be done. | | | |
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