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Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:14 - Jun 15 by Apollo
Absolutely right. As Gordon Brown puts it, we should "Lead the EU not Leave the EU". This is a view echoed by the German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble in an interview with Der Spiegel on 10 June 2016. Schäuble argues that:
"Britain is one of the strongest economies in the EU, and London is Europe's largest financial centre. Britain plays a leading role in all matters of foreign and security policy. That is why Europe is stronger with Britain than without it. Besides, the UK consistently advocates market-based solutions in Brussels, which frequently makes it an ally of the German government. And, in my view, one cannot have enough British pragmatic rationality in Europe." ( http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1096999.html)
With Putin menacing Europe's eastern borders and massive instability in the middle-east, weakening the collective strength of Europe's democracies is a serious strategic blunder.
We keep hearing about "Leading the EU", but nobody as suggested a practical method of doing so. The Germans and French have a stranglehold on the current EU setup, so exactly how are we going to lead them. The EU is extremely disliked and mistrusted by the majority of working class people throughout Europe and will not stay in existance in it's current format anyway. The people of Europe are not ready for a totalistic one state, there is too much national disparity and although the EU have tried to rid them of their nationalities it has not worked. Any organisation that puts itself above the national good and identity of countries is wrong.
There is absolutley no reason for the UK to be out of Europe, which is not at all the same thing as being out of the EU at all. If you think that the EU is in any way holding off Putin or held off the USSR then you are niave in the extreme. It was NATO and to a much lesser extent the UN that has done so, it seems that a lot of history has been lost.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:20 - Jun 15 with 1644 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:01 - Jun 15 by nice_to_michu
Well the Tories called the referendum because of the pressure they were facing from eurosceptics within their party, and to pacify UKIP supporters etc.
Not really sure why you would vote leave as a "protest" though given that this referendum could well shut the door for us in the EU for a generation or longer. It's not like you are giving party XYZ a bloody nose in one election and voting for a different party before returning to party XYZ five years later. That won't happen with the EU referendum.
Also, you say you don't trust Cameron or Osborne et al, but a vote leave would give them more powers. Not forgetting how this referendum is the brainchild of Nigel Farage, leader of one of the most disengenuous parties in recent history.
Cameron/Osborne wont have any power if they lose. They will be thrown out of office. If its Farages brainchild, is it the case that Cameron and Co are doing Farages bidding? An astounding claim. They are trying to settle an internal Tory dispute by holding a referendum which THEY believe has awful consequences if Leave triumphs.. A stunningly irresponsible approach. My belief is that if Leave wins, it doesnt necessarily shut the door because the Leave will never be implemented. It will show the whole exercise up to be a sham. A disruptive and unwelcome distraction. The protest is against the whole farrago that the political classes are foisting on us with this referendum. A leave vote is the best way to say "up yours" to the establishment. Im loving the way they are panicking after they have mistakenly taken the electorate for granted.
If you can fill the unforgiving minute.
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:31 - Jun 15 with 1636 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 07:46 - Jun 15 by AnotherJohn
I usually have a lot of sympathy for Lisa's views, but saying that the EU and the USA are examples of the same system is a remarkable claim. It would be more instructive to look at the ASEAN Economic Community (AEC) and what they are doing differently from the EU.
I was referring to the principle of the system in which countries / states which have their own law making powers and taxes (to some extent) are all signed up to a communal system of federal law making and taxation with an ability to send their own representation to that Federal body but being subject to the will of all other states as well and a single border. Some areas of government being decided at a Federal level and some at a state level.
I wasn't saying anything other than the principle is to some extent the same.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:42 - Jun 15 with 1626 views
If we all spoke the same language (sorry Trampie, it wouldn't be Welsh) and allowed each member country legislative autonomy, I think the EU would probably work perfectly well.
The fact they call countries 'member states' seems to imply it actually was the USA they were modelling on?
I'm in 'remain' this week although, in true Darran fashion, I don't think I really give a f*ck anymore. Things are going to get bloody and nasty; in fact bloody bloody and bloody nasty, whichever way it goes. Particularly when the economy collapses again, which it will shortly, in or out.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:31 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001
I was referring to the principle of the system in which countries / states which have their own law making powers and taxes (to some extent) are all signed up to a communal system of federal law making and taxation with an ability to send their own representation to that Federal body but being subject to the will of all other states as well and a single border. Some areas of government being decided at a Federal level and some at a state level.
I wasn't saying anything other than the principle is to some extent the same.
Yes, it has a similar system.
However, I would say that the majority of bigger and more important decisions are made at the national (smaller) government level whereas in the U.S. the big decisions are made on Capitol Hill which is the larger government level.
I've explained that poorly but I hope it makes sense.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:54 - Jun 15 with 1623 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:42 - Jun 15 by nice_to_michu
Yes, it has a similar system.
However, I would say that the majority of bigger and more important decisions are made at the national (smaller) government level whereas in the U.S. the big decisions are made on Capitol Hill which is the larger government level.
I've explained that poorly but I hope it makes sense.
I agree with that - I tend to think it's because the EU isn't mature yet.
In 50 years time I can see it being very similar.
That's why I disagree with Hitchens on it - there are examples of the system working very well, but it's a journey and the EU is nowhere near the end of its journey (it may never get there of course).
That's why I keep saying that for me, this vote is one of principle rather than just economy or immigration (a complete red herring).
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:00 - Jun 15 with 1619 views
Just when you thought the Remain zeleb campaign reaches it's low point on QT we now get Oirish multi millionaire and renowned business expert Geldof flicking the Vs at fishermen.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:42 - Jun 15 by nice_to_michu
Yes, it has a similar system.
However, I would say that the majority of bigger and more important decisions are made at the national (smaller) government level whereas in the U.S. the big decisions are made on Capitol Hill which is the larger government level.
I've explained that poorly but I hope it makes sense.
That is how it is supposed to work "the big decisions are made on Capitol Hill " except for some time the decisions have been made by Obama and his Departments & Quangos.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:00 - Jun 15 by blueytheblue
Izzard now Geldof.
Just when you thought the Remain zeleb campaign reaches it's low point on QT we now get Oirish multi millionaire and renowned business expert Geldof flicking the Vs at fishermen.
vote clincher for leave.
DRINK, FECK, GIRRRRLLSSS!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:17 - Jun 15 with 1600 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:54 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001
I agree with that - I tend to think it's because the EU isn't mature yet.
In 50 years time I can see it being very similar.
That's why I disagree with Hitchens on it - there are examples of the system working very well, but it's a journey and the EU is nowhere near the end of its journey (it may never get there of course).
That's why I keep saying that for me, this vote is one of principle rather than just economy or immigration (a complete red herring).
So you believe the EU doesn't have an immigration problem ?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:54 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001
I agree with that - I tend to think it's because the EU isn't mature yet.
In 50 years time I can see it being very similar.
That's why I disagree with Hitchens on it - there are examples of the system working very well, but it's a journey and the EU is nowhere near the end of its journey (it may never get there of course).
That's why I keep saying that for me, this vote is one of principle rather than just economy or immigration (a complete red herring).
If it is still in existance the EU and travels the route outlined for it by its founders it will not be anything like the USA. It has already moved away from democracy and nations (states). The ESM has already done so see this video
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:01 - Jun 15 by A_Fans_Dad
That is how it is supposed to work "the big decisions are made on Capitol Hill " except for some time the decisions have been made by Obama and his Departments & Quangos.
What on earth are you talking about?
Are you referring to executive actions? If not, I don't know what decisions you are referring to because Congeess has been a formidable legislative opponent to Obama ever since he became President.
Executive actions haven't been majorly transformative and can hardly be described as big decisions when compared to laws made by Congress and signed by the President.
[Post edited 15 Jun 2016 14:44]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:51 - Jun 15 with 1562 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:51 - Jun 15 by Flashberryjack
I've got more faith in the Brexit camp handling immigration than Angela Merkel and her cronies, but of course that's just IMO.
But isn't that thinking very short term?
Neither the Brexit lot nor Angela Merkel are permanent features of our decision one way or another
I think the Brexit camp are being utterly disingenuous on immigration. They keep saying about the '300,000' net immigration stopping. Well half of that is non EU anyway - if controlling it is so important then why does no one control the non EU bit at the moment? It's because we need it. We need immigration as we have an ageing population and not enough people of working age to support the population as it stands. I don't believe for one moment that we are going to stop people coming here from Spain, or France or wherever as long as they work and contribute. Well that's no different to what has been agreed now - people will have 6 months and if they don't get a job they have to leave. We dont actually have people coming here to 'scrounge' - it's a myth. Also, for whatever reason, we can't fill certain types of jobs with 'British people' - service industry, NHS, agriculture and so on are massively reliant on immigrants. So we will still need to bring in people to do these jobs. If we are going to get a 'points system' then what system will say yes to people to pick crops for example? They are largely unskilled workers but we need them because unfortunately a lot of 'Brits' think such work is beneath them and they can't be bothered to do it. So we need to bring in unskilled workers as well, we just won't bring in unskilled people to claim benefits - but then we don't anyway, and so it continues.
If we leave, and I've said before that I think there are valid reasons why people may want to, I bet that over the next ten years or so, immigration figures will be pretty much the same as they will be if we stay. That's why I think it's a red herring.
My thoughts on 'control of borders' would be different if we were part of the Schengen agreement but we're not and we are never going to be.
As with you, it's just my opinion.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:16 - Jun 15 with 1534 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:51 - Jun 15 by Flashberryjack
I've got more faith in the Brexit camp handling immigration than Angela Merkel and her cronies, but of course that's just IMO.
Yeh but Merkel doesn't dictate EU immigration policy policy, does she.
Do you think a refugee can claim asylum in Germany and then just drive over to here and settle in a nice council house in Townhill and claim benefits? If you do, the you're mistaken.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:18 - Jun 15 with 1532 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:12 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001
But isn't that thinking very short term?
Neither the Brexit lot nor Angela Merkel are permanent features of our decision one way or another
I think the Brexit camp are being utterly disingenuous on immigration. They keep saying about the '300,000' net immigration stopping. Well half of that is non EU anyway - if controlling it is so important then why does no one control the non EU bit at the moment? It's because we need it. We need immigration as we have an ageing population and not enough people of working age to support the population as it stands. I don't believe for one moment that we are going to stop people coming here from Spain, or France or wherever as long as they work and contribute. Well that's no different to what has been agreed now - people will have 6 months and if they don't get a job they have to leave. We dont actually have people coming here to 'scrounge' - it's a myth. Also, for whatever reason, we can't fill certain types of jobs with 'British people' - service industry, NHS, agriculture and so on are massively reliant on immigrants. So we will still need to bring in people to do these jobs. If we are going to get a 'points system' then what system will say yes to people to pick crops for example? They are largely unskilled workers but we need them because unfortunately a lot of 'Brits' think such work is beneath them and they can't be bothered to do it. So we need to bring in unskilled workers as well, we just won't bring in unskilled people to claim benefits - but then we don't anyway, and so it continues.
If we leave, and I've said before that I think there are valid reasons why people may want to, I bet that over the next ten years or so, immigration figures will be pretty much the same as they will be if we stay. That's why I think it's a red herring.
My thoughts on 'control of borders' would be different if we were part of the Schengen agreement but we're not and we are never going to be.
As with you, it's just my opinion.
Yep.
120k or so is students as well.
Today we had the latest employment figures 5% rate and 2.3% pay growth at a time of near 0 inflation rate.
We are almost at full employment, I'm still flabbergasted by it all really things are starting to tick along quite nicely.
I fear those that want out most will be crying in a few years. The jocks got lucky when they talked about 'project fear' regarding the price of oil they were right to say the estimates by pro UK were way out... They were being very optimistic...
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:31 - Jun 15 with 1514 views
This quagmire created by Cameron will have people voting (or not ) from a poorly-informed point of view.
Some of those that like to kick a mid-term government will vote to spite Cameron & Osbourne who have let themselves down by playing the man and not the ball in many disputes. Certainly the Tories are suffering in the background.
Saved only by the fractured Labour stance. Corbyn has been told to tow the Remain Line by the Union-controlled puppeteers, yet has shown himself to be so anti-EU in the past that the joke is that he will vote in the Ballot for Brexit.
The older voters are more likely to vote Brexit and, crucially, more likely to turn out and vote.
The younger voters more likely to vote remain, less likely to vote.
The undecided are more likely to vote Remain, the status quo, fear of the unknown. However, many I know who are undecided will vote Brexit sticking 2 fingers up at the scare campaign....leap in the dark.
The scare factor re remain is that if we vote to stay in the EU, some see it as giving carte blanche to Europe to dictate in the future whatever they want. We can't complain because we gave them the green light.
As for immigration, it is a huge issue for many voters. Again, those arguing seem to blur the issue with stats to confuse:
Remain.....half of immigrants are non EU Brexit......both halves are too many. Anyone (up to 500m!)given a EU passport in the future could walk into the UK.... Remain....Agree but Brexit is not the answe, anyway less than half of immigrants claim benefits & more than half do pay tax Brexit.....Isn't that too many claimants, and not enough taxpayers anyway? Remain,...... yes but it doesn't really impact so much on our economy
And it rolls on.
Remain.....the economy will be damaged if we leave Brexit.....agreed by 95% economists in the short run, but will recover, but how much and how long no one knows. We give £350m/week to the EU. It's on the battle-bus posters Remain.....Agreed, but really £120m net/week Brexit.....fair enough but we don't control the rebates we get Remain.....we could be at war in Europe without the security of Unity. Yes Cameron on that. Brexit.....Isn't that NATO which has secured Europe.....um Bosnia springs to mind, no EU rush there Blah blah
I feel that having promised the UK a referendum about Brexit, the voters have been let down by the hysteria, confusing spin and lack of facts.
All I hope for is that there is a reasonable turn-out so that we can at least say the winner wasn't ignorance & apathy.
Now back to the football ðŸ‘ðŸ»ðŸ™ƒ
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:41 - Jun 15 with 1497 views
One thing this referendum has done on a personal level is make me more pro immigration rather than less. I've always believed we let in too many and still do. It's like animals many are nicer than humans, I find some of our white trash far more depressing than many of the hard working immigrants who come in. I respect the past, but I always look to the future.
Immigration is a key issue and needs tightening up, the irony is it has been non eu has been reducing take away students and the benefits element of eu migrants have been reformed. We need at a European level to bring in more controls but as Lisa said its ridiculous to suggest we'll be back to 1950's Britain by leaving EU it will at best reduce immigration slightly. The World has changed, we are more interconnected and global. This debate should have happened when that idiot Blair opened the floodgates, we can't turn back the clock.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:42 - Jun 15 with 1494 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:40 - Jun 15 by A_Fans_Dad
We keep hearing about "Leading the EU", but nobody as suggested a practical method of doing so. The Germans and French have a stranglehold on the current EU setup, so exactly how are we going to lead them. The EU is extremely disliked and mistrusted by the majority of working class people throughout Europe and will not stay in existance in it's current format anyway. The people of Europe are not ready for a totalistic one state, there is too much national disparity and although the EU have tried to rid them of their nationalities it has not worked. Any organisation that puts itself above the national good and identity of countries is wrong.
There is absolutley no reason for the UK to be out of Europe, which is not at all the same thing as being out of the EU at all. If you think that the EU is in any way holding off Putin or held off the USSR then you are niave in the extreme. It was NATO and to a much lesser extent the UN that has done so, it seems that a lot of history has been lost.
(a)You say that "The Germans and French have a stranglehold on the current EU setup, so exactly how are we going to lead them. "
No Sir, you are quite wrong. We don't lead Germany and France we lead with them - as Wolfgang Schäuble's remarks, which I quoted in my post, clearly suggest. Therein lies the difference between the arrogance of many dogmatic eurosceptics -I am not suggesting that you are one of them- and the robust pragmatism of leaders such as Margaret Thatcher. Since you are interested in history, you may remember that Mrs Thatcher was a leading figure in developing the single market, a classic example of how the UK exercised cooperative leadership from within the EU on an issue of vital national interest.
(b) You do not have to take my word for it that damaging the collective strength of the EU weakens our collective security. This is a view supported by a long list of former US Secretaries of State and Defense and other senior foreign affairs figures in an open letter to the Times on 10 May 2016 .
Nato does not exist in a vacuum, it rests on economic and diplomatic foundations which include the EU. This fundamental truth helps to explain why five former Secretaries General of Nato argued in an open letter to the Telegraph, also on 10 May 2016 , that the EU "is a key partner for Nato" and Brexit "will give succour to the West's enemies".
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:49 - Jun 15 with 1489 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:42 - Jun 15 by Apollo
(a)You say that "The Germans and French have a stranglehold on the current EU setup, so exactly how are we going to lead them. "
No Sir, you are quite wrong. We don't lead Germany and France we lead with them - as Wolfgang Schäuble's remarks, which I quoted in my post, clearly suggest. Therein lies the difference between the arrogance of many dogmatic eurosceptics -I am not suggesting that you are one of them- and the robust pragmatism of leaders such as Margaret Thatcher. Since you are interested in history, you may remember that Mrs Thatcher was a leading figure in developing the single market, a classic example of how the UK exercised cooperative leadership from within the EU on an issue of vital national interest.
(b) You do not have to take my word for it that damaging the collective strength of the EU weakens our collective security. This is a view supported by a long list of former US Secretaries of State and Defense and other senior foreign affairs figures in an open letter to the Times on 10 May 2016 .
Nato does not exist in a vacuum, it rests on economic and diplomatic foundations which include the EU. This fundamental truth helps to explain why five former Secretaries General of Nato argued in an open letter to the Telegraph, also on 10 May 2016 , that the EU "is a key partner for Nato" and Brexit "will give succour to the West's enemies".
Yes Germany are literally pleading with us to stay because we have a lot in common, two moderate conservative governments with a belief in opening up markets and similar economies.
If we leave it really could precipitate the end as the balance will shift. Germany needs our leadership this goes all the way back to the formation of the eu, one of the reasons we've had problems since is that we walked away from talks right at the time of the treaty of Rome.
I'd rather we were shaping policy than sitting there hoping for the best. Just makes sense to me.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:15 - Jun 15 with 1461 views
It's one thing to mention Thatcher but it's apples and oranges.
As more nations join, it dilutes the voice Britain or any other single nation ( possibly Germany excepted ) has.
People say "can't influence if not inside" but reality belies that.
Cameron went to renegotiate. Any concession by the EU Cameron could have used as a bone to throw to the electorate for the referendum. "See? We can negotiate".
EU gave nothing, nadda, zip and disparaged the outcome almost immediately. So in a situation where the EU want us to stay, they couldn't even concede something of note to smooth the process.
If the EU have that distain now, who thinks it's magically going to improve?
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