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The Omicron Varient 13:04 - Nov 28 with 6437 viewsSadoldgit

In the hope of a less conspiracy theory based discussion on this thread, although I was very critical about the government being slow to react to the initial outbreak, the sudden speed of activity seems very out of character and worrying. Whilst telling us that tests are ongoing, I do wonder why they are so concerned at this point. Do they know more than they are telling us?

(Oh no, I have just entered the conspiracy theory world myself!! 🤪😖😩)
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The Omicron Varient on 07:18 - Dec 2 with 798 viewssaint68

Albert Bourla, he seems determined to get the vaccine in the arms of 5yr olds and up, his main point being school disruption....I'd regard the primary need for a vaccination in the primary school age group be health orientated..he goes on to say to stop transmission..well we also know that the vaccines doesn’t stop the spread.

In fact these youngsters will be in a better state to defeat viruses by being exposed and defeating them with their natural immune system, germs and bugs are a part of life..kids need exposure to raise their immune system.

The interview made him look like a dealer desperate for more customers.

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 09:22 - Dec 2 with 736 viewssaint901

First can somebody please change the title of this thread to remove the spelling error?

Second, in the overwhelming set of data available, we can all find selective parts that support our particular bias or prejudice. Add in the agenda of the mainstream media and the desire of the Gov't to show that they have everything under control and have always had a plan (not true) and there is fertile ground for whatever theory is your favourite.

There are a few hard facts however on which we can presumably agree?

The vaccines in use work by prompting our immune systems to produce antibodies so that should the virus be contracted, it's effects are muted. For those who have relatively healthy immune systems, this helps reduce the impact of the disease but does not prevent it.

Therapeutics work in a similar manner, i.e. they seek to reduce symptoms rather than "cure" the disease.

This disease is highly contagious. The new variant may be more so - nobody knows yet. With no action, we would likely see infections being much higher than presently reported with the inevitable higher death rate. Action such as full lockdown was acceptable in March 2020, perhaps less so now.

The human body is a remarkable survival machine but is not perfect. It has learned how to cope with infections from cuts, broken bones and numerous other complaints. Nonetheless it cannot deal with many viral and bacterial infections such as measles (still fatal in many places), meningitis, smallpox. The body needs help with these and vaccines have been the answer for decades.

The talk of natural immunity being a route to freedom essentially means two things. First the "vulnerable" must either volunteer or be forced to live a restricted life for the benefit of those lucky enough to be relatively healthy. Second, individuals and society must be prepared to accept a number of preventable deaths and accept a Gov't that permits that to happen. Great in theory but when it's your child, your spouse, your parents dying before your eyes, what is your position then?

It is also true that children and young people are unlikely to be badly impacted by Covid. As to whether a vaccine creates a higher risk of injury than Covid in that population, I'm sure the mass of data can "prove" the answer to be both yes and no. In my mind however the purpose here is to reduce the viral load. Like all viruses, Covid needs to be present in billions of cells to achieve its aims. Those countless billions in a population also allow it to mutate and seek to evade counter measures. Reducing the viral load in individuals and populations, reduces the chance of a new mutation. This is why we cannot escape this thing until the whole world has reduced the viral load.

Finally, science advisers "advise" and politicians decide. The Gov't can decide to ignore scientific advice and if they do so and are considered to have been reckless or dangerous, then the next election should see them gone - the ultimate sanction in our democracy. That fact should be a (small) comfort when anger and frustration over the message or the way it's delivered or implemented, obscures the reason and logic in the message. Don't conflate the message with the messenger. That's childish.

Rant over - as you were.

COYR
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The Omicron Varient on 11:17 - Dec 2 with 703 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 23:26 - Dec 1 by Jellybaby

Oh my word, literally playing with us.


Anyone who believes that a secret multi Government conspiracy is directing the entire pandemic for some nefarious purpose , and yet decides to give it a name that can be decoded as some kind of clue to their existence and purpose must also believe that Adam West really was Batman. This gives an insight into how easy it is for Chinese Intelligence to direct the thinking of gullible people.
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The Omicron Varient on 11:20 - Dec 2 with 702 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 07:18 - Dec 2 by saint68

Albert Bourla, he seems determined to get the vaccine in the arms of 5yr olds and up, his main point being school disruption....I'd regard the primary need for a vaccination in the primary school age group be health orientated..he goes on to say to stop transmission..well we also know that the vaccines doesn’t stop the spread.

In fact these youngsters will be in a better state to defeat viruses by being exposed and defeating them with their natural immune system, germs and bugs are a part of life..kids need exposure to raise their immune system.

The interview made him look like a dealer desperate for more customers.


I repeat, do you not know the basic principle of a vaccine, and how it might affect the spread of a virus, because you don't seem to understand it at all.
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The Omicron Varient on 11:22 - Dec 2 with 700 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 20:26 - Nov 28 by saint68

No no no Jelly..we have to inject every last living thing...No sir!! You can't hold your new born..I really need to jab them with an experimental vaccine..I don't know why..but I have to apparently..

Coming to a hospital near you soon.


Why is this vaccine "experimental" compared to other vaccine programs? When in your opinion did the latest flu vaccine ceased to be "experimental" and why?
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The Omicron Varient on 12:17 - Dec 2 with 683 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 11:22 - Dec 2 by GasGiant

Why is this vaccine "experimental" compared to other vaccine programs? When in your opinion did the latest flu vaccine ceased to be "experimental" and why?


A vaccine that is using MRNA is relatively new, cancer trials aside.

Previously vaccines have been tested vigorously for many years prior to full licensing and rollout.

You are simply implying this is old medicine reimagined..thats false.

So your comment is misleading GG...similar to the latest use of the word immunisation being used by the BBC and other broadcast media...its definitely not an immunisation rollout as the hospitalisations and infections prove.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-a
[Post edited 2 Dec 2021 12:32]

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 12:31 - Dec 2 with 680 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 11:20 - Dec 2 by GasGiant

I repeat, do you not know the basic principle of a vaccine, and how it might affect the spread of a virus, because you don't seem to understand it at all.


Do you understand that strengthening immune systems is gained by catching and fighting off infections, over protection from sanitising everything that young children come in to contact with in the recent past is actually recognised as a massive reason for the rise in asthma and other immune response illnesses.


https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/16/537075018/dirt-is-good-why-

Similar to doctors handing out antibiotics to the extent its now been deemed as bad practice and counterproductive to immune response.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/26/uk-doctors-told-to-halve-inappro

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 12:54 - Dec 2 with 670 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 12:17 - Dec 2 by saint68

A vaccine that is using MRNA is relatively new, cancer trials aside.

Previously vaccines have been tested vigorously for many years prior to full licensing and rollout.

You are simply implying this is old medicine reimagined..thats false.

So your comment is misleading GG...similar to the latest use of the word immunisation being used by the BBC and other broadcast media...its definitely not an immunisation rollout as the hospitalisations and infections prove.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-a
[Post edited 2 Dec 2021 12:32]


mRNA vaccines are newly available to the public. However, researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. There seems to be a massive difference in attitude between (for instance) people with life threatening cancers who go to the USA for "radical new treatments" with the blessing of friends family and fundraisers, and the carefully researched development of immunology here in the UK. Why the dichotomy? Why the scaremongering? Do you apply this same level of negativity to all areas of clinical treatment?
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The Omicron Varient on 13:04 - Dec 2 with 664 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 12:31 - Dec 2 by saint68

Do you understand that strengthening immune systems is gained by catching and fighting off infections, over protection from sanitising everything that young children come in to contact with in the recent past is actually recognised as a massive reason for the rise in asthma and other immune response illnesses.


https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/16/537075018/dirt-is-good-why-

Similar to doctors handing out antibiotics to the extent its now been deemed as bad practice and counterproductive to immune response.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/26/uk-doctors-told-to-halve-inappro


Yes I do, I think most people do. That's a spurious comparison. The cause and treatment of asthma is something very different and it is not caused by a virus, so its pharmacology is entirely different too. Vaccines educate and pre-arm the bodies immune system to a virus signature. Without that any infection is likely to be more severe. The vaccine doesn't fight the disease, your own body's defences do that. Covid and Asthma causes and treatments are different - you might as well compare vaccines to chemotherapy.
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The Omicron Varient on 13:12 - Dec 2 with 656 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 13:04 - Dec 2 by GasGiant

Yes I do, I think most people do. That's a spurious comparison. The cause and treatment of asthma is something very different and it is not caused by a virus, so its pharmacology is entirely different too. Vaccines educate and pre-arm the bodies immune system to a virus signature. Without that any infection is likely to be more severe. The vaccine doesn't fight the disease, your own body's defences do that. Covid and Asthma causes and treatments are different - you might as well compare vaccines to chemotherapy.


You claimed incorrectly that these vaccines weren't experimental vaccines..that was false wasn't it.


Professor Adam Finn this very day admitted vaccinating young children wasn't appropriate en masse, in fact as they catch it and recover very easily it wasn't a necessity currently and the antibodies produced were extremely beneficial going forward ..I mean what does he know!!

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 13:17 - Dec 2 with 653 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 13:04 - Dec 2 by GasGiant

Yes I do, I think most people do. That's a spurious comparison. The cause and treatment of asthma is something very different and it is not caused by a virus, so its pharmacology is entirely different too. Vaccines educate and pre-arm the bodies immune system to a virus signature. Without that any infection is likely to be more severe. The vaccine doesn't fight the disease, your own body's defences do that. Covid and Asthma causes and treatments are different - you might as well compare vaccines to chemotherapy.


A clearer example in regards to my previous comment.

https://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 15:48 - Dec 2 with 613 viewsDorsetIan

The Omicron Varient on 13:12 - Dec 2 by saint68

You claimed incorrectly that these vaccines weren't experimental vaccines..that was false wasn't it.


Professor Adam Finn this very day admitted vaccinating young children wasn't appropriate en masse, in fact as they catch it and recover very easily it wasn't a necessity currently and the antibodies produced were extremely beneficial going forward ..I mean what does he know!!


Just to clarify, are these posts serious now or are you still on a wind up?

Poll: Should we try to replace Selles for the final seven games?

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The Omicron Varient on 17:22 - Dec 2 with 578 viewscocklebreath

This thread is nearly as dull as Covid

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The Omicron Varient on 17:52 - Dec 2 with 570 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 13:17 - Dec 2 by saint68

A clearer example in regards to my previous comment.

https://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick


That is not the same issue - I'd accept it in a different context but it is not relevant to this vaccination programme. There is little sense in taking one eminent viewpoint unless it represents the consensus of the virology and immunology sectors, which it doesn't. It is a minority view. There is little point either of us playing happy families with eminent physicians unknown to either of us and never referenced in the past so there is no benefit in rushing to google up yet other references unless they are germane to the specific conspiracy theories you have touted previously. Asthma is clearly outside of Covid and its vaccine programme.
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The Omicron Varient on 18:17 - Dec 2 with 564 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 17:52 - Dec 2 by GasGiant

That is not the same issue - I'd accept it in a different context but it is not relevant to this vaccination programme. There is little sense in taking one eminent viewpoint unless it represents the consensus of the virology and immunology sectors, which it doesn't. It is a minority view. There is little point either of us playing happy families with eminent physicians unknown to either of us and never referenced in the past so there is no benefit in rushing to google up yet other references unless they are germane to the specific conspiracy theories you have touted previously. Asthma is clearly outside of Covid and its vaccine programme.


Adam Finn was live on the BBC this morning expressing his opinion as a member of the JVCI his opinion is not only valid,its from a committee that endorses actions for the government to follow GG

You still haven't responded in regards to your false claim about these vaccines being fully approved as they certainly aren't in the UK.

Emergency use and fully approved aren't in anyway the same..hence the correct term of experimental currently.

The criteria strictly adhered to in medicine approvals aren't being used in regards to these vaccines

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1244


And what about Data integrity in rolling out vaccines to billions across the globe!...are we now in a position to waver strict controls for efficacy all of a sudden?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

In order to stop conspiracies raging unchecked, it's paramount that all counter arguments are water tight and without prejudice, and most of all are not open to questioning or subject to misinformation claims.

In order to bring those in doubt or sceptical inline we must at all times be 100% factually correct and above reproach

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 18:23 - Dec 2 with 556 viewssaint68

And articles like this damage covid vaccine confidence.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-irelands-co-waterford-has-one-of-the-highest

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 18:57 - Dec 2 with 548 views1885_SFC

The Omicron Varient on 18:23 - Dec 2 by saint68

And articles like this damage covid vaccine confidence.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-irelands-co-waterford-has-one-of-the-highest


"For now, the government emphasises the lowered death and hospitalisation rates as proof that Ireland's eagerness to embrace the vaccines has paid dividends."


Old School is Cool

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The Omicron Varient on 19:33 - Dec 2 with 526 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 18:57 - Dec 2 by 1885_SFC

"For now, the government emphasises the lowered death and hospitalisation rates as proof that Ireland's eagerness to embrace the vaccines has paid dividends."



Lower mortality rates are indeed to be applauded 1885, this article does however bust the misinformation regarding transmission being Lower in fully vaccinated people as many have boasted on here, and it highlights yet again that people are spreading false and dangerous information .maybe like insinuating that unvaccinated should be denied hospital care because they're the ones spreading the virus and not those fully vaccinated...many have stated that they should be denied care on the basis they're the dirty ones who are perpetuating the covid cycle..yet more disgusting and ill informed covid misinformation.

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 10:15 - Dec 3 with 482 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 18:17 - Dec 2 by saint68

Adam Finn was live on the BBC this morning expressing his opinion as a member of the JVCI his opinion is not only valid,its from a committee that endorses actions for the government to follow GG

You still haven't responded in regards to your false claim about these vaccines being fully approved as they certainly aren't in the UK.

Emergency use and fully approved aren't in anyway the same..hence the correct term of experimental currently.

The criteria strictly adhered to in medicine approvals aren't being used in regards to these vaccines

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1244


And what about Data integrity in rolling out vaccines to billions across the globe!...are we now in a position to waver strict controls for efficacy all of a sudden?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

In order to stop conspiracies raging unchecked, it's paramount that all counter arguments are water tight and without prejudice, and most of all are not open to questioning or subject to misinformation claims.

In order to bring those in doubt or sceptical inline we must at all times be 100% factually correct and above reproach


If a vaccine is administered via the NHS and by the NHS then it is approved by the NHS. There is little to be gained in challenging this obvious truth by trawling through normal NICE procedures designed for normal times. Of course vaccines are produced reactively and in short term response to mutating viruses - they are not like medicines which go through years of trials. If you think this vaccine programme is "illegal" then you automatically think all vaccines are illegal. There is no difference, and to be frank playing around with terms like "experimental" is just a pointless waste of time Terms that have definition in laboratories do not have the same context in the wider world. I don't really undersand your fundamental issue - are you saying that we should just let Covid go until it burns itself out? Or are you saying that it doesn't actually exist, and is just a device so that Governments can "control" us? Is it that because it doesn't kill in massive numbers now that it is not actually that harmful? Or something else?
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The Omicron Varient on 10:27 - Dec 3 with 471 viewsDorsetIan

The Omicron Varient on 10:15 - Dec 3 by GasGiant

If a vaccine is administered via the NHS and by the NHS then it is approved by the NHS. There is little to be gained in challenging this obvious truth by trawling through normal NICE procedures designed for normal times. Of course vaccines are produced reactively and in short term response to mutating viruses - they are not like medicines which go through years of trials. If you think this vaccine programme is "illegal" then you automatically think all vaccines are illegal. There is no difference, and to be frank playing around with terms like "experimental" is just a pointless waste of time Terms that have definition in laboratories do not have the same context in the wider world. I don't really undersand your fundamental issue - are you saying that we should just let Covid go until it burns itself out? Or are you saying that it doesn't actually exist, and is just a device so that Governments can "control" us? Is it that because it doesn't kill in massive numbers now that it is not actually that harmful? Or something else?


68 and other like him are simple not interested in 'the science'. Their narrative around 'freedom' and 'governmental control' is the only thing that they are interested in promoting, and they will cherry pick anything to support that.

Once that is understood, there really is no point in trying to engage with him/them on medical or scientific points. There just isn't the shared frame of reference necessary for any sensible debate (i.e. agreement about certain obvious truths, and a commitment to discovering the truth).

Poll: Should we try to replace Selles for the final seven games?

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The Omicron Varient on 13:18 - Dec 3 with 451 viewsJellybaby

The Omicron Varient on 10:27 - Dec 3 by DorsetIan

68 and other like him are simple not interested in 'the science'. Their narrative around 'freedom' and 'governmental control' is the only thing that they are interested in promoting, and they will cherry pick anything to support that.

Once that is understood, there really is no point in trying to engage with him/them on medical or scientific points. There just isn't the shared frame of reference necessary for any sensible debate (i.e. agreement about certain obvious truths, and a commitment to discovering the truth).


Science is important, but is being turned into a God by some people and could turn out to be the cruelest religion yet. Surely the arts have lessons to teach us also, where is the voice of the poet, the musician, the theologian, the philosopher. Science alone is leading to the loss of those things that make us happy each day and is turning people despotic.

Most people Ian, unlike you Ian value their freedoms, but have been robbed of them by the incessant fear propaganda.

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

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The Omicron Varient on 17:51 - Dec 3 with 425 viewsGasGiant

The Omicron Varient on 13:18 - Dec 3 by Jellybaby

Science is important, but is being turned into a God by some people and could turn out to be the cruelest religion yet. Surely the arts have lessons to teach us also, where is the voice of the poet, the musician, the theologian, the philosopher. Science alone is leading to the loss of those things that make us happy each day and is turning people despotic.

Most people Ian, unlike you Ian value their freedoms, but have been robbed of them by the incessant fear propaganda.


That's poppycock. Science is simply the search for - and presentation of - objective truth - ie free from the so called "emotional intelligence" which really means the ability of Tom, Dick and Harry to just say what they feel over and over without ever bothering to check if it is actually correct, and yes I am talking about you. It is not "science" that is turning people despotic, that is just an example of the kind of uncorroborated paranoid rubbish you and Anti Vaxxers want to spout (or as you call them "The Arts") rather than having views checked and rebutted in the court of hard evidence as opposed to the court of popular opinion. There is beauty in the symmetries and proofs that lead to knowledge that in turn lead to wisdom. Poetry. Literature and Music enrich our lives but they are half the story.
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The Omicron Varient on 20:57 - Dec 3 with 399 viewsDorsetIan

The Omicron Varient on 13:18 - Dec 3 by Jellybaby

Science is important, but is being turned into a God by some people and could turn out to be the cruelest religion yet. Surely the arts have lessons to teach us also, where is the voice of the poet, the musician, the theologian, the philosopher. Science alone is leading to the loss of those things that make us happy each day and is turning people despotic.

Most people Ian, unlike you Ian value their freedoms, but have been robbed of them by the incessant fear propaganda.


Poetry, art, music, theology, philosophy are all essential in relation to different parts of life but, there's only one way to safely wire a plug.

And, as for the value of freedom, I suggest that it'll be scant consolation for someone to know that they are 'free' when hooked up to a ventilator in a Covid ward drawing their last unvaccinated breath.

Poll: Should we try to replace Selles for the final seven games?

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The Omicron Varient on 21:26 - Dec 3 with 387 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 10:15 - Dec 3 by GasGiant

If a vaccine is administered via the NHS and by the NHS then it is approved by the NHS. There is little to be gained in challenging this obvious truth by trawling through normal NICE procedures designed for normal times. Of course vaccines are produced reactively and in short term response to mutating viruses - they are not like medicines which go through years of trials. If you think this vaccine programme is "illegal" then you automatically think all vaccines are illegal. There is no difference, and to be frank playing around with terms like "experimental" is just a pointless waste of time Terms that have definition in laboratories do not have the same context in the wider world. I don't really undersand your fundamental issue - are you saying that we should just let Covid go until it burns itself out? Or are you saying that it doesn't actually exist, and is just a device so that Governments can "control" us? Is it that because it doesn't kill in massive numbers now that it is not actually that harmful? Or something else?


That's factually inaccurate and totally misleading GG and you know it.. don't lower yourself to distributing misleading and false information..I really thought you were way above such things.

Emergency use granted .nothing more..so stop lying.

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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The Omicron Varient on 21:39 - Dec 3 with 382 viewssaint68

The Omicron Varient on 17:51 - Dec 3 by GasGiant

That's poppycock. Science is simply the search for - and presentation of - objective truth - ie free from the so called "emotional intelligence" which really means the ability of Tom, Dick and Harry to just say what they feel over and over without ever bothering to check if it is actually correct, and yes I am talking about you. It is not "science" that is turning people despotic, that is just an example of the kind of uncorroborated paranoid rubbish you and Anti Vaxxers want to spout (or as you call them "The Arts") rather than having views checked and rebutted in the court of hard evidence as opposed to the court of popular opinion. There is beauty in the symmetries and proofs that lead to knowledge that in turn lead to wisdom. Poetry. Literature and Music enrich our lives but they are half the story.


Well GG, you are actually ignoring the science..have a word with yourself..seriously!!

We're actually abandoning all previous balances and checks..yet again YOU ARE LYING!!!

Poll: Who would you want to save this season Pellegrino or Adkins

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