| Where is our problem defensively? 09:44 - Jan 7 with 1617 views | SonicBoom |
Seeing the games and reading the match reports (and various podcasts) the consensus is that we expect to let in goals. In fact in a lot of games our defending is often described as shambolic. Why is this?
Most fans seem happy with the personnel. Livramento is highly thought of, KWP similar.
Many fans think Salisu is the next VvD and there is a lot of support for Bednarek and Stephens (who some fans think should be playing for England!).
So if they are so good, how come we defend so poorly at times?
For me the issues still lies at centre back. I still don't think we have solved our long term issue there. Bednarek is limited. good at interceptions and last ditch tackles, but not calm under pressure and easily bullied. Salisu is still very raw. He often dives in to try and intercept but gets it wrong and the attacker is away. He also is always treading a fine line with his tackles and gives a away a lot of free kicks (and collects cards).
Stephens veers wildly between solid and absolutely all at sea. Lyanco is a bit unknown right now, could be a cult hero but that doesn't mean he's going to be reliable week in week out.
All of them look like they would benefit from playing with a more experienced head but we've been saying that for years. Is is down to Ralph? He's had 3 years and we still look shakey.
What I'm saying is that all those defenders have their supports, yet the combination on the pitch just does not seem to work. |  | | |  |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 10:52 - Jan 7 with 1573 views | dirk_doone |
We have the 12th best goals against record in the Premier League and the 14th best goals for record. We have lower mid-table players so it's about what you'd expect. If anything, our defence has improved since we managed to get rid of Vestergaard so now, after he's played a few games for them, Leicester's goals against record is worse than ours.
When we had better players, like Fonte and van Dijk we had a better defence. But, then we werea top 8 team. Hopefully, we will be again in the future. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:01 - Jan 7 with 1554 views | DorsetIan |
I don't know the stats but my impression is that we concede too many when losing possession when attacking, with the wide defenders then being caught out too far forward.
In terms of perspective, we're about mid-table in terms of goals conceded, and until the Norwich game we were doing even better than that. 4 against Liverpool, 3 Arsenal and 4x 2 goals since then. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:02 - Jan 7 with 1553 views | Sadoldgit |
I agree that we aren’t particularly strong in the CB positions although I think Salisu will get there. I would like to see someone a bit more solid beside him. I think our main problem though is our protection, or lack of, of the defence and keeper. We have shown in a few games that we can do the backs against the wall, throw bodies in the way type of defending, but many goals come from teams breaking and catching us out. We are easily stretched. We have also suffered a lot from conceding goals from basic individual mistakes or giving the ball away in poor areas. We pay a price for the high press which is great when it works but we just don’t put teams away when we are on top, leading to the inevitable down the other end. |  | | |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:02 - Jan 7 with 1558 views | saintwizzler |
Because they fail to mark an opponent.
WHU’s second and the opener at Arsenal are just two off the top of my head.
The attacker had the freedom of the box on both occasions.
Wether they are told to mark space (zonal) instead of a man only they and the manager know.
At least we have an average goalkeeper in goal now instead of a god almighty shit one. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 12:12 - Jan 7 with 1501 views | saint901 |
My own observations from matches watched and discounting some of what I've seen on MOTD as you don't get the full picture.
RH wants the full backs to press on and be an attacking threat and/or add to the press. KWP is keen on that but a quick ball from the opposition into that left back space creates issues. Romeu cannot always cover that position. When KWP defends he has a tendency to go too narrow to the centre back perhaps because he feels exposed relying on his left foot. That also allows the opposition to find that wide right space. One on one he is a good defender but struggles at left back to know who to mark.
Livramento also likes to go forward but is a little more discriminating and is less likely to be caught forward. His issue I think is that he makes poor choices when defending. Times he should be tight and not allow a turn and times when he should be pushing the winger into dead space, he struggles with a little. Understandably perhaps because of his age but he needs to be better coached because people get past him too easily.
I've not seen Stephens much this term so can't really comment. Bednarek is solid enough but prone to trying to win balls that are not there.
Salisu is an enigma. Plays really calmly and is assured for 85 minutes but like a headless chicken for 5 minutes, diving in, dragged out of position, a bit tired perhaps? A new VVD he is most definitely not.
Together I think the his full backs sometimes give the CB's some difficult choices about whether to go wide or not. They've clearly been told not to do that but you can see them drifting across. At that "across" is an problem. In doing that they allow an opposition player to run at them and without Romeu or Diallo they are exposed. Given that neither of them are great in a tackle with a forward who has control of the ball, I think they panic a little.
That's my take. | | | |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 12:44 - Jan 7 with 1489 views | SaintNick |
I have been saying for the past 5 years that we have lacked a leader at the back, any good team has a balance, you have to have youth and experience. You also have to have contrast, players have to compliment each other.
In 2012/13 we shipped 60 goals one of the worst defences in the Premier League for most of the season.
I said back then that Jose Fonte had lost a yard of pace and alongside the likes of Hooiveld and Yoshida we had the worst centre back pairing in the Premier.
The following season we brought in Lovren and suddenly we had one of the best pairing is the division, had Fonte improved ? no he was playing alongside someone who complimented him as a duo, Fonte could read the game (Before Dirk starts to sue me, he could play a bit as well) and Lovren could win the ball, what Lovren lacked in reading the game Fonte could cover and what Fonte lacked in a bit of pace Lovren could cover.
That season we let in 46 goals, Lovren left and Alderweireld joined Fonte and we let in just 33.
This is what we need now, we need a leader in the centre of defence, someone who is there for his experience more than his ability so to speak.
It was the same back in the 90's/00's there was a time when Lundekvam looked dodgy then in came Richards and we got more solid.
This is not to slag off either Fonte or Lundekvam, for some positions it is about partnerships and players complimenting each other, once they had the right partner that complimented them both went on to improve their games and not only become better players, but make those around them better players..
Fonte & Claus were leaders, that doesn't mean they have to be leading from the front and by example, Wellington didn't lead the charge of fight anyone at Waterloo,, it means they hold everything together and that is what we are lacking now a good 29/30 year old been there and done it leader |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 13:04 - Jan 7 with 1470 views | Butty101 |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 12:44 - Jan 7 by SaintNick |
I have been saying for the past 5 years that we have lacked a leader at the back, any good team has a balance, you have to have youth and experience. You also have to have contrast, players have to compliment each other.
In 2012/13 we shipped 60 goals one of the worst defences in the Premier League for most of the season.
I said back then that Jose Fonte had lost a yard of pace and alongside the likes of Hooiveld and Yoshida we had the worst centre back pairing in the Premier.
The following season we brought in Lovren and suddenly we had one of the best pairing is the division, had Fonte improved ? no he was playing alongside someone who complimented him as a duo, Fonte could read the game (Before Dirk starts to sue me, he could play a bit as well) and Lovren could win the ball, what Lovren lacked in reading the game Fonte could cover and what Fonte lacked in a bit of pace Lovren could cover.
That season we let in 46 goals, Lovren left and Alderweireld joined Fonte and we let in just 33.
This is what we need now, we need a leader in the centre of defence, someone who is there for his experience more than his ability so to speak.
It was the same back in the 90's/00's there was a time when Lundekvam looked dodgy then in came Richards and we got more solid.
This is not to slag off either Fonte or Lundekvam, for some positions it is about partnerships and players complimenting each other, once they had the right partner that complimented them both went on to improve their games and not only become better players, but make those around them better players..
Fonte & Claus were leaders, that doesn't mean they have to be leading from the front and by example, Wellington didn't lead the charge of fight anyone at Waterloo,, it means they hold everything together and that is what we are lacking now a good 29/30 year old been there and done it leader |
Exactly and i think thats why a lot of the fanbase were disappointed we didnt go after cahill. I think he would of done an excellent job for us |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 13:26 - Jan 7 with 1460 views | SaintNick |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 13:04 - Jan 7 by Butty101 |
Exactly and i think thats why a lot of the fanbase were disappointed we didnt go after cahill. I think he would of done an excellent job for us |
Perhaps now we have new owners the strategy will change slightly and we will have the scope to pay the wages needed to get in some experience | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Where is our problem defensively? on 14:11 - Jan 7 with 1419 views | PatfromPoole |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:02 - Jan 7 by saintwizzler |
Because they fail to mark an opponent.
WHU’s second and the opener at Arsenal are just two off the top of my head.
The attacker had the freedom of the box on both occasions.
Wether they are told to mark space (zonal) instead of a man only they and the manager know.
At least we have an average goalkeeper in goal now instead of a god almighty shit one. |
Nutshell.
Too much ball-watching and not enough man-marking.
Particularly at CB. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 15:07 - Jan 7 with 1398 views | TimSaint |
A lot of it has already been mentioned, but for me personally.....
1. Goalkeeper - neither fans nor team mates have had confidence in our keepers since the Koeman era. FF lost the plot for a bit and AM has always been inclined to make a good number of absolute howlers every season. Goals change games and for us, when we concede stupid, unnecessary goals, it affects the whole team in a negative way.
We don't score many with our Championship strike force, so imagine how you feel as a player working hard to get your team in front, only for someone to fvck it all up with an error or sometimes 2 !!
2. The defence switches off and doesn't focus for the whole game. Time after time, we are caught out in possession, gift the opposition goals with stupid errors or passes and far too often we fanny around with it at the back when taking those short goal kick routines and that just invites pressure that we cannot cope with.
3. Zonal Marking doesn't work - please man mark !! Far too many goals conceded when attackers have been given the freedom of our box !!
4. We don't have a leader or organiser at the back. At least FF shouts out more than AM, but we need one of the defenders to be barking instructions.
5. Our FBs tend to be a bit too gung-ho with their attacking and leave space at the back that the opposition exploit. The CDMs don't cover for the FBs when they maraud forward.
6. Especially if we are leading or earning a decent draw, the whole team tends to sit further back the longer the 2nd half goes on, which ultimately invites pressure on the defence and quite often results in us conceding and drawing/losing the game. (see points lost from winning positions to confirm this).
7. The team gets tired. Oppositions know that if they can get to Half Time with the game in the balance, they have more chance of winning in the 2nd half. That is why the likes of Leicester, Villa and Burnley were wasting so much time in the first half of our recent games with them.
8. The crowd has come to expect us to concede and therefore moans or gets on players' backs accordingly.
9. We haven't signed the CB defensive players we have needed for years. We never go for the finished article, always a young up and coming player that we can develop - but the gamble doesn't always work.
10. When the gamble does work, we sell them as soon as we can to make a quick buck. Hopefully the new owners will help alleviate this by paying / convincing the good ones to stay - if applicable !!
11. Catch 22 with the youngsters (with the exception of Tino) - they want game time and we need to play them, but they can't start as they don't have sufficient Prem experience. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 19:39 - Jan 7 with 1283 views | StAnt |
It's a combination of things starting with not having a goalkeeper that the defence can fully trust either in terms of distribution, shot stopping or command of the box.
Agree we do ball watch rather than pick up opponents in dangerous situations. This is so frustrating because all it needs is more awareness as to what is around them. We have conceded far too many goals because of this problem.
Lastly I think we press too hard and for too long periods rather than play smart and conserve energy. This leaves us tired and that is when mistakes happen and hence why we are so much worse second half.
Having said all that we've improved and at least managed some clean sheets notably away to City. | | | |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 20:32 - Jan 7 with 1259 views | Bicester_North |
Isn’t this the time where someone should say welcome to the forum and asks for top 3 biscuits? | |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 06:20 - Jan 8 with 1150 views | barry_sanchez |
Our centrebacks and goalkeeper are the issue and have been for years, I've no confidence in any of them and Stephens is Danny Fox's twin in terms of ability and getting a professional contract. |  |
| He who is silent and bows his head dies every time he does so. He who speaks aloud and walks with his head held high dies only once.
—Giovanni Falcone | | Poll: | What is your favourite poll? |
| |
| Why has our defence improved? on 08:16 - Jan 8 with 1121 views | dirk_doone |
I reiterate that we have the 12th best defensive record in the Premier League and that there has been a clear improvement since the departure of Vestergaard. This season we have conceded 29 goals in 19 league games at an average of 1.5 per game whereas last season we conceded 68 goals in 38 league games at an average of 1.8 per game.
I'm not saying that our defence is top 8 because we don't have players of that quality yet but it is top 12 and it has shown a significant improvement on last season. Our attack, however, is a different matter. This season we have scored just 20 goals in 19 games at an average of 1 per game whereas last season we scored 47 goals in 38 games at an average of 1.2 per game. So, whilst our defence has improved, our attack has become less effective.
This, in spite of the fact that, for a lower mid table team, we play quite an attacking style of football, with our wing backs pushed quite high up the pitch and usually with only one defensive midfielder. If we played more like Burnley, for example, we'd concede fewer goals but score even less. | |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:33 - Jan 8 with 1109 views | cocklebreath |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:02 - Jan 7 by saintwizzler |
Because they fail to mark an opponent.
WHU’s second and the opener at Arsenal are just two off the top of my head.
The attacker had the freedom of the box on both occasions.
Wether they are told to mark space (zonal) instead of a man only they and the manager know.
At least we have an average goalkeeper in goal now instead of a god almighty shit one. |
The last point is the reason, McCarthy was hopeless, he came 21st out of 20 goalies last season in the premier league, he’s the worst goalie we’ve ever had, hopefully his injury keeps him out for the rest of the season and the rumours of a new contract are Bollox. |  |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:40 - Jan 8 with 1103 views | dirk_doone |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:33 - Jan 8 by cocklebreath |
The last point is the reason, McCarthy was hopeless, he came 21st out of 20 goalies last season in the premier league, he’s the worst goalie we’ve ever had, hopefully his injury keeps him out for the rest of the season and the rumours of a new contract are Bollox. |
I agree. I've always said McCarthy costs us about 20 points per season. If he never played for us again, of course our defence would improve. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 8:42]
| |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:42 - Jan 8 with 1098 views | kernow |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:33 - Jan 8 by cocklebreath |
The last point is the reason, McCarthy was hopeless, he came 21st out of 20 goalies last season in the premier league, he’s the worst goalie we’ve ever had, hopefully his injury keeps him out for the rest of the season and the rumours of a new contract are Bollox. |
The worst goalie we've ever had....who remembers Tony Godfrey?
These days it seems that the defensive coaching is totally non existent at times. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 8:45]
| | | |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:43 - Jan 8 with 1095 views | cocklebreath |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:42 - Jan 8 by kernow |
The worst goalie we've ever had....who remembers Tony Godfrey?
These days it seems that the defensive coaching is totally non existent at times. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 8:45]
|
Not me but he must’ve had one leg if he was worse than McCarthy | |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:55 - Jan 8 with 1082 views | dirk_doone |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:42 - Jan 8 by kernow |
The worst goalie we've ever had....who remembers Tony Godfrey?
These days it seems that the defensive coaching is totally non existent at times. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 8:45]
|
I remember him. At 5ft 9ins (that was his official height but he looked even shorter than that), he was ridiculously short for a goalkeeper. He found his level at Aldershot, whereas McCarthy found his at Yeovil. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 9:02]
| |
| |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 11:17 - Jan 8 with 994 views | SonicBoom |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 15:07 - Jan 7 by TimSaint |
A lot of it has already been mentioned, but for me personally.....
1. Goalkeeper - neither fans nor team mates have had confidence in our keepers since the Koeman era. FF lost the plot for a bit and AM has always been inclined to make a good number of absolute howlers every season. Goals change games and for us, when we concede stupid, unnecessary goals, it affects the whole team in a negative way.
We don't score many with our Championship strike force, so imagine how you feel as a player working hard to get your team in front, only for someone to fvck it all up with an error or sometimes 2 !!
2. The defence switches off and doesn't focus for the whole game. Time after time, we are caught out in possession, gift the opposition goals with stupid errors or passes and far too often we fanny around with it at the back when taking those short goal kick routines and that just invites pressure that we cannot cope with.
3. Zonal Marking doesn't work - please man mark !! Far too many goals conceded when attackers have been given the freedom of our box !!
4. We don't have a leader or organiser at the back. At least FF shouts out more than AM, but we need one of the defenders to be barking instructions.
5. Our FBs tend to be a bit too gung-ho with their attacking and leave space at the back that the opposition exploit. The CDMs don't cover for the FBs when they maraud forward.
6. Especially if we are leading or earning a decent draw, the whole team tends to sit further back the longer the 2nd half goes on, which ultimately invites pressure on the defence and quite often results in us conceding and drawing/losing the game. (see points lost from winning positions to confirm this).
7. The team gets tired. Oppositions know that if they can get to Half Time with the game in the balance, they have more chance of winning in the 2nd half. That is why the likes of Leicester, Villa and Burnley were wasting so much time in the first half of our recent games with them.
8. The crowd has come to expect us to concede and therefore moans or gets on players' backs accordingly.
9. We haven't signed the CB defensive players we have needed for years. We never go for the finished article, always a young up and coming player that we can develop - but the gamble doesn't always work.
10. When the gamble does work, we sell them as soon as we can to make a quick buck. Hopefully the new owners will help alleviate this by paying / convincing the good ones to stay - if applicable !!
11. Catch 22 with the youngsters (with the exception of Tino) - they want game time and we need to play them, but they can't start as they don't have sufficient Prem experience. |
Agree with all of this - except number ten.
When a player does well and gets a big offer from another club he wants to go we can't keep him. The club does not tout them around and sell to the first bidder.
You have to accept where we are in the pyramid. The club have to, so they build it into the strategy. You cannot keep players that want to go.
Also I should have said originally that maybe we don't concede huge numbers of goals, but we concede so many where we shoot ourselves in the foot. We gift a lot of simple goals. | | | |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 16:06 - Jan 8 with 844 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Where is our problem defensively? on 08:42 - Jan 8 by kernow |
The worst goalie we've ever had....who remembers Tony Godfrey?
These days it seems that the defensive coaching is totally non existent at times. [Post edited 8 Jan 2022 8:45]
|
Not to mention that sociopath Grobbelaar. What a complete cvnt he was. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
