| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread 10:17 - Feb 24 with 18353 views | SaintNick |
This thread for all the debates on the developing situation |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 18:42 - Mar 1 with 2066 views | JaySaint |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 18:38 - Mar 1 by Sadoldgit |
Feeble response to the invasion. It has been building for weeks so it wasn’t exactly a surprise was it. Doing more doesn’t necessarily mean taking military action. The initial sanctions were pathetic. |
We have been shipping arms, equipment and supplies to them for months. Most other nations were not. The Ukrainians were even publicly singing GSTQ. This is whilst our European partners were closing their airspace to our flights
we (with the USA) have led the efforts
Lets say end of Jan, Boris went full-on sanction mode. You would have gone mental, saying he is pulling stunt to save his own skin. Either way, he cannot do anything right. [Post edited 1 Mar 2022 18:43]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 19:28 - Mar 1 with 1988 views | Bison |
SoG's you seem to be alone voice on here with your constant criticism so when you say plenty agree with you I have no idea who you mean , I dont even know what you actually think as you seem to argue for both sides at time. Ian quite rightly pulled me up as I inadvertently introduced Brexit to the mix and he rightly said its about unity at the moment and he was quite right.
You have no military experience either when you go on about 1st strike and 2nd strike being pointless , what do you think those very expensive metal tubes hiding around the worlds oceans carry ?
MAD might not work you say , well it has up to now so surely you use experience to judge the present situation.
Most MP's agree with you , yes thats right , 20 years as a doctor or banker or even street cleaner then they get a 4 year contract to run the country. Let them decide how world peace has been kept for the last 70 years.
You want a vast proportion of our defence that has worked for the last 70 years to suddenly feed the poor and provide free internet. Its noble but can you see how dangerous a suggestion it is ?? ( Answer No ).
I know you are a good man SoG's . I know you have strong and noble opinions , but in a time of War like now , you are best placed back in your box....
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:08 - Mar 1 with 1894 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 19:28 - Mar 1 by Bison |
SoG's you seem to be alone voice on here with your constant criticism so when you say plenty agree with you I have no idea who you mean , I dont even know what you actually think as you seem to argue for both sides at time. Ian quite rightly pulled me up as I inadvertently introduced Brexit to the mix and he rightly said its about unity at the moment and he was quite right.
You have no military experience either when you go on about 1st strike and 2nd strike being pointless , what do you think those very expensive metal tubes hiding around the worlds oceans carry ?
MAD might not work you say , well it has up to now so surely you use experience to judge the present situation.
Most MP's agree with you , yes thats right , 20 years as a doctor or banker or even street cleaner then they get a 4 year contract to run the country. Let them decide how world peace has been kept for the last 70 years.
You want a vast proportion of our defence that has worked for the last 70 years to suddenly feed the poor and provide free internet. Its noble but can you see how dangerous a suggestion it is ?? ( Answer No ).
I know you are a good man SoG's . I know you have strong and noble opinions , but in a time of War like now , you are best placed back in your box....
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No most people on here don’t agree with me, but this is hardly representative of the whole country is it and there is opposition to nuclear arms beyond my voice on here. Did you read the articles about MAD? As you know, the whole point is that no one actually uses their weapons but as soon as someone does, which Putin could, then MAD clearly fails and it matters little if the perpetrator does take a hit because us, or France or maybe most of Europe will be devastated. You say that MAD has worked so far but it only takes one crazy idiot to decide to launch and we are screwed so it may not work much longer. Read the articles, they put MAD into a wider perspective. Only 9 counties have a nuclear capability. I am sure there are a few more who would like it but most of the countries on this planet seem happy enough to do without. Before I get back into my box, explain to me how the world is a safer place when crazy regimes like Russia and North Korea have nuclear weapons, and before you say that they would never launch first, how do you know? |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:34 - Mar 1 with 1884 views | Ron11 |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:08 - Mar 1 by Sadoldgit |
No most people on here don’t agree with me, but this is hardly representative of the whole country is it and there is opposition to nuclear arms beyond my voice on here. Did you read the articles about MAD? As you know, the whole point is that no one actually uses their weapons but as soon as someone does, which Putin could, then MAD clearly fails and it matters little if the perpetrator does take a hit because us, or France or maybe most of Europe will be devastated. You say that MAD has worked so far but it only takes one crazy idiot to decide to launch and we are screwed so it may not work much longer. Read the articles, they put MAD into a wider perspective. Only 9 counties have a nuclear capability. I am sure there are a few more who would like it but most of the countries on this planet seem happy enough to do without. Before I get back into my box, explain to me how the world is a safer place when crazy regimes like Russia and North Korea have nuclear weapons, and before you say that they would never launch first, how do you know? |
Isn't the fact that the likes of crazy regimes like Russia and N Korea have nuclear weapons enough reason for us in the UK and elsewhere to have to spend billions to cancel out the threat.
I seem to have read somewhere about the calls for unilateral nuclear disarmament in the sixties, but that it all went quiet when the argument that it should actually be 'multilateral' disarmament was put forward.
In the days when Russia was the communist Soviet Union of course. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:18 - Mar 2 with 1858 views | 1885_SFC |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:08 - Mar 1 by Sadoldgit |
No most people on here don’t agree with me, but this is hardly representative of the whole country is it and there is opposition to nuclear arms beyond my voice on here. Did you read the articles about MAD? As you know, the whole point is that no one actually uses their weapons but as soon as someone does, which Putin could, then MAD clearly fails and it matters little if the perpetrator does take a hit because us, or France or maybe most of Europe will be devastated. You say that MAD has worked so far but it only takes one crazy idiot to decide to launch and we are screwed so it may not work much longer. Read the articles, they put MAD into a wider perspective. Only 9 counties have a nuclear capability. I am sure there are a few more who would like it but most of the countries on this planet seem happy enough to do without. Before I get back into my box, explain to me how the world is a safer place when crazy regimes like Russia and North Korea have nuclear weapons, and before you say that they would never launch first, how do you know? |
At any one time the UK has a submarine at sea carrying 16 nuclear missiles, each capable of hitting targets 7,000 miles away. Each missile has a dozen independent warheads with the power to destroy a city. There is no scenario in which the destruction of 192 cities is a good outcome, but the chilling effect of Trident is to massively discourage aggression against the UK. Knowing this lets me sleep soundly in my bed at night - just as it has done for many years now. Putin may be a fascist, a tyrant and a bully - but he's not mental - and neither are his top brass. |  |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 06:37 - Mar 2 with 1803 views | Saintsforeverj |
The point about nuclear weapons is that yes ofcourse ideally, we would have a nuclear free world and all live in harmony. But it's because of mad men like Putin, that you would never be able to achieve it. How would you ever enforce the world to be nuclear free? The Putin's and King John UN's of this world would carry on making them. Those bullies and tyrants would take advantage of those lack of deterrents in the western world. So if they have them, we need them as a deterrent, otherwise, the mad man would have them and we wouldn't! That would be very dangerous and reckless. [Post edited 2 Mar 2022 6:53]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 10:09 - Mar 2 with 1707 views | Soton |
Sadoldgit, the proof of nuclear weapons being a deterrent is for all to see, the reason why no European or US forces are helping Ukraine is because Russia is a nuclear power and the price of helping could be just to high a price to pay, the Russians being a nuclear power also makes a mockery of Putins claim that NATO is threatening his country, he already knows that Russia is safe from invasion from the west because of his nuclear weapons
It’s odd as I hate the idea of nuclear weapons but I believe that since WW2 they probably helped keep down a number of wars, and very probably stopped a Russia advance in Europe, how long this holds up is anyones guess
I still can understand how you can’t see any of this and insist mutual destruction hasn’t worked, it’s like you just saying it to pick a argument, there must be a small part in your mind that says the extended peace in Europe could be down to the fear of the consequences of what might happen if war between 2 nuclear armed countries broke out |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:22 - Mar 2 with 1662 views | cocklebreath |
Soggy would never pick an argument. I still find it strange they Someone who has reached a good age still thinks like a 2nd year student doing a politics degree. |  |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:11 - Mar 2 with 1561 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:22 - Mar 2 by cocklebreath |
Soggy would never pick an argument. I still find it strange they Someone who has reached a good age still thinks like a 2nd year student doing a politics degree. |
You might not agree with anti MAD arguments, but if you have read any of them Cockle you will see that they are written by eminent people. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:22 - Mar 2 with 1553 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 10:09 - Mar 2 by Soton |
Sadoldgit, the proof of nuclear weapons being a deterrent is for all to see, the reason why no European or US forces are helping Ukraine is because Russia is a nuclear power and the price of helping could be just to high a price to pay, the Russians being a nuclear power also makes a mockery of Putins claim that NATO is threatening his country, he already knows that Russia is safe from invasion from the west because of his nuclear weapons
It’s odd as I hate the idea of nuclear weapons but I believe that since WW2 they probably helped keep down a number of wars, and very probably stopped a Russia advance in Europe, how long this holds up is anyones guess
I still can understand how you can’t see any of this and insist mutual destruction hasn’t worked, it’s like you just saying it to pick a argument, there must be a small part in your mind that says the extended peace in Europe could be down to the fear of the consequences of what might happen if war between 2 nuclear armed countries broke out |
I M not saying it hadn’t worked. The thing is, if we are saying that no one will use the weapons why don’t we support Ukraine with military as we have nothing to fear from a nuclear attack. The other argument is what point a secondary attack if the UK is a bare smoking rock and the initial launcher , say Putin, doesn’t care about the consequences. It worked in the 50s through the 80s but things have moved on. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:57 - Mar 2 with 1525 views | dirk_doone |
A few countries are using this as an opportune moment to make cheap deals with Putin:
“What a time I have come... so much excitement,” Mr Khan said on his arrival in Moscow.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news
That is the problem we face in trying to enforce international sanctions. Whilst most of the western world supports Ukraine, although there are notable exceptions like Brazil and Venezuela, much of the eastern world supports Russia. [Post edited 2 Mar 2022 15:14]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 15:29 - Mar 2 with 1486 views | PaleRider |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:57 - Mar 2 by dirk_doone |
A few countries are using this as an opportune moment to make cheap deals with Putin:
“What a time I have come... so much excitement,” Mr Khan said on his arrival in Moscow.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news
That is the problem we face in trying to enforce international sanctions. Whilst most of the western world supports Ukraine, although there are notable exceptions like Brazil and Venezuela, much of the eastern world supports Russia. [Post edited 2 Mar 2022 15:14]
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I think it would be good to know which countries are standing by Russia - I understand that countries like India and the UAE are as well as their old friends China and Venezuela.
There will need to be a time of reckoning with those countries as well as it is a "good vs evil" war like WW2. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:16 - Mar 2 with 1452 views | Soton |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:22 - Mar 2 by Sadoldgit |
I M not saying it hadn’t worked. The thing is, if we are saying that no one will use the weapons why don’t we support Ukraine with military as we have nothing to fear from a nuclear attack. The other argument is what point a secondary attack if the UK is a bare smoking rock and the initial launcher , say Putin, doesn’t care about the consequences. It worked in the 50s through the 80s but things have moved on. |
I think the point is it’s work this long as it’s kept the super powers from direct conflict with each other, I don’t think anyone in there right mind should just assume no country will use them, the thinking is it’s better not to push the countries that have them into to a tight of a corner where you need one of the big powers to surrender | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:09 - Mar 2 with 1416 views | DellHero_Would |
Our direct response to the war has been commendable. The people I’ve spoken to over the last 7 days wholeheartedly agreed with that sentiment. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:39 - Mar 2 with 1371 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:18 - Mar 2 by 1885_SFC |
At any one time the UK has a submarine at sea carrying 16 nuclear missiles, each capable of hitting targets 7,000 miles away. Each missile has a dozen independent warheads with the power to destroy a city. There is no scenario in which the destruction of 192 cities is a good outcome, but the chilling effect of Trident is to massively discourage aggression against the UK. Knowing this lets me sleep soundly in my bed at night - just as it has done for many years now. Putin may be a fascist, a tyrant and a bully - but he's not mental - and neither are his top brass. |
Again, a valid argument but there is another side of it. If you haven’t already then read this.
https://www.theguardian.com/wo | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:45 - Mar 2 with 1368 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:09 - Mar 2 by DellHero_Would |
Our direct response to the war has been commendable. The people I’ve spoken to over the last 7 days wholeheartedly agreed with that sentiment. |
I’m not sure that the people who matter, the Ukrainians would agree with you. The other issue is that Putin knows he can do what he wants in countries outside NATO and get away with it. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 18:08 - Mar 2 with 1329 views | DorsetIan |
Would be fascinating to know the extent of the military support the West is providing to Ukraine.
There have been plenty of documented donations of weapons and ammunition but I'm presuming that there's even more stuff going on the we're not going to be told about.
For those with military experience, do we think we have people on the ground - special forces etc - offering help and guidance?
And if you look at the map of Ukraine, the borders without Russian are much longer than those with - plenty of opportunities to get things into the country from the West. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 22:14 - Mar 2 with 1264 views | 1885_SFC |
A close shave indeed for this volunteer fighter...
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:15 - Mar 2 with 1240 views | Bison |
What an absolute load of bollox . For those who can't be arsed it has quotes like this to say it doesn't -
Deterrence enthusiasts are like the woman who sprayed perfume on her lawn every morning. When a perplexed neighbour asked about this strange behaviour, she replied: ‘I do it to keep the elephants away.’ The neighbour protested: ‘But there aren’t any elephants within 10,000 miles of here,’ whereupon the perfume-sprayer replied: ‘You see, it works!’
Same as my Crocodile spray joke :)
The duration of ‘nuclear peace’, from the Second World War to the end of the Cold War, lasted less than five decades. More than 20 years separated the First and Second World Wars; before that, there had been more than 40 years of relative peace between the end of the Franco-Prussian War (1871) and the First World War (1914), and 55 years between the Franco-Prussian War and Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo (1815).
What were the weapons of Mass destruction in 1805 ?
And finally we get to the solution -
"The only way to make sure nuclear weapons are not used is to make sure there are no such weapons"
Well Fook me Sherlock !
Back in the box son....... | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:33 - Mar 3 with 1214 views | 1885_SFC |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 23:15 - Mar 2 by Bison |
What an absolute load of bollox . For those who can't be arsed it has quotes like this to say it doesn't -
Deterrence enthusiasts are like the woman who sprayed perfume on her lawn every morning. When a perplexed neighbour asked about this strange behaviour, she replied: ‘I do it to keep the elephants away.’ The neighbour protested: ‘But there aren’t any elephants within 10,000 miles of here,’ whereupon the perfume-sprayer replied: ‘You see, it works!’
Same as my Crocodile spray joke :)
The duration of ‘nuclear peace’, from the Second World War to the end of the Cold War, lasted less than five decades. More than 20 years separated the First and Second World Wars; before that, there had been more than 40 years of relative peace between the end of the Franco-Prussian War (1871) and the First World War (1914), and 55 years between the Franco-Prussian War and Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo (1815).
What were the weapons of Mass destruction in 1805 ?
And finally we get to the solution -
"The only way to make sure nuclear weapons are not used is to make sure there are no such weapons"
Well Fook me Sherlock !
Back in the box son....... |
I didn't read it because it was the Guardian... but I figured it would be some bearded, corduroy-wearing, kale-eating, anti-war weirdo. Guess I was right? | |
| GET THE F*CK OUT OF THIS FOOTBALL CLUB SPORT REPUBLIC |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:47 - Mar 3 with 1208 views | Bicester_North |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 15:29 - Mar 2 by PaleRider |
I think it would be good to know which countries are standing by Russia - I understand that countries like India and the UAE are as well as their old friends China and Venezuela.
There will need to be a time of reckoning with those countries as well as it is a "good vs evil" war like WW2. |
https://inews.co.uk/news/un-ru
Countries like Sri Lanka, India, South Africa, Pakistan and Bangladesh that we have big links to due to our population and sport etc abstained.
It would f*ck cricket massively but we should sever all sporting and business ties as much as possible with these countries. Despite all the links we have they are not condemning a maniac who has threatened to destroy the world a few times in the last couple of weeks. [Post edited 3 Mar 2022 0:47]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:58 - Mar 3 with 1199 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:33 - Mar 3 by 1885_SFC |
I didn't read it because it was the Guardian... but I figured it would be some bearded, corduroy-wearing, kale-eating, anti-war weirdo. Guess I was right? |
Well.... at the end of the article it says ...... This essay was originally published in Aeon.
You click the link https://aeon.co/
You get a picture of 2 pigs with the headline .....
WHY MORALITY REQUIRES VEGANISM.
So yes they are experts on modern warfare and nuclear deterrents.
Deterrence enthusiasts are like the woman who sprayed perfume on her lawn every morning. When a perplexed neighbour asked about this strange behaviour, she replied: ‘I do it to keep the crocodile's away.’ The neighbour protested: ‘But there aren’t any crocodile's within 10,000 miles of here,’ whereupon the perfume-sprayer replied: ‘You see, it works!’
The neighbour laughed and went back home , the next morning she was found in the belly of a big fat crocodile. When the kids asked Daddy to spray the Crocodile spray on the lawn he replied I'm sorry kids I sold it to buy you that new xBox and Organic Spinach for your tea. [Post edited 3 Mar 2022 1:22]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 08:48 - Mar 3 with 1110 views | franniesTache |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 00:33 - Mar 3 by 1885_SFC |
I didn't read it because it was the Guardian... but I figured it would be some bearded, corduroy-wearing, kale-eating, anti-war weirdo. Guess I was right? |
Nothing wrong with corduroy, i've got a few pairs of Lois Jumbo Cords that are smart as f*ck  |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 09:10 - Mar 3 with 1091 views | PaleRider |
WTF is Abramovic not being sanctioned - are we letting him get rid of his UK assets first? I smell a rat! | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:50 - Mar 3 with 1041 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 09:10 - Mar 3 by PaleRider |
WTF is Abramovic not being sanctioned - are we letting him get rid of his UK assets first? I smell a rat! |
Interesting article looking at the economic/energy situation going forward
https://amp.theguardian.com/bu | | | |
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