| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? 22:55 - Jan 23 with 5918 views | numptydumpty |
Obviously seen ourselves consistently do this under Marti.
However almost all premiership teams now do this and a great majority of EFL clubs operate with this tactic now also.
And it's not just ourselves that have the occasional rick , which leads to a rather embarrassing goal conceded.
I certainly feel in general, it's a positive tactic that gives the team time to work out how they can potentially unlock defences up top but sticking to this, 100 percent of the time is odd and in our case if you don't necessarily have the players who completely capable of being SAFE whilst doing this - in our case Dunne and Kakay - and it seems a mistake is always a possibility.
When you have John Stones or Virgil Van Dyk, it's understandable.
For me with ourselves, we also currently have a goalkeeper who does not have the safe pass out in his locker either.
Got to admit I hated watching Ainsworth tactics and much prefer maintaining possession which gives us more chances to threaten but sometimes I feel players must occasionally be allowed to do the agricultural boot up field, especially with ourselves having the outlet of the pace and power of Sinclair Armstrong.
It's definitely now the gameplan for the majority but it can really be a bit of a heart in mouth or dumb ass tactic when players can be intercepted or caught in possession and rather embarrassing f##k ups do happen.
Anyone in the know why this is now such a widely used part of the modern game..
[Post edited 23 Jan 22:57]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 12:02 - Jan 24 with 1008 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
If its played correctly then tip tapping around the back can work. You try to pull the opposition out of position, but you have to move the ball quickly, something less technical players struggle with (Dunne).
I liked Man City's goal in the cup final last year, accurate long ball in the first 5 minutes. It can work just as well, but it's all about variation, something MC wants. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 12:05 - Jan 24 with 1013 views | ngbqpr |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:02 - Jan 24 by daveB |
This is how kids are taught to play from 6 years of age and why they are not very good at knocking it long, it's what they are good at, was something Trevor Brooking brought into youth football about 20 years ago |
This!
As I've mentioned before, I have been heavily involved in coaching young (non-academy) players for over 20 years and have seen all the step changes at the FA in terms of how we are taught to coach (grass roots as well as 'elite').
The big change came around 2010 when the 'new generation' of coaches / coach tutors won the battle with the old guard at the FA and the 'England DNA' was born - tho as Dave says, Trevor Brooking was heavily involved (and why would you not want a genuinely two footed player who could successfully deliver every kind of pass known to man involved?).
This is what has produced what I call the Foden Generation (the u17 World Cup winners), with Bellingham being the latest star pupil. However there is a danger that academies are taking it too far, and as a friend of mine once wisely opined when we both had our sons in an academy together at the time, "the danger is we end up with a nation full of James Milners" - no disrespect to a fine player, but he's very much the type of technically adept all rounder that every team wants a couple of , but not a squad full.
On the wider point, I'd stress that the 'England DNA', while preaching the benefits of possession (in a nutshell - only the team in possession can score, so why give it away cheaply), does emphasise always looking to move the ball forward quickly / at the first opportunity - which is where your ball playing keeper comes in.
When it goes wrong? Either trying to get players who have not been schooled that way to play it (tho it can be learnt at an older age - best current example: Lewis Dunk); or forgetting the 'get it forward asap' bit - see Swanselona under numerous managers.
By the way Clive, I was listening to the Russell Martin interview on 5 Live the other night and couldn't help wondering if you were tuned in. It was pure David Brent - but I must admit that for the first time, I did just warm to him a little. |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:32 - Jan 24 with 915 views | kernowhoop |
In football, the team that scores the most goals wins the game (and the points).
With the odd exception (defensive madness) you need the ball to score the goal that wins the game.
Hoofing the ball in the oppoents' half usually gives them the ball.
It then has to be won back... | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:35 - Jan 24 with 906 views | charmr |
Football got better with kids watching technically better foreign players playing in the premier league. Watched a kids game at Northwood a while back and thought it was brilliant.
FA also brought in a youth award in their coaching set up. Great book called ‘The future game’
Ideas not all their own but extremely thoughtful and brilliant presented. Another book -Game vision in soccer’ All designed to coach coaches from the academies to grassroots parents and players in game like scenarios.
Playiers playing under different types of pressure. Unopposed , passive and opposed while keeping your head up and scanning around you constantly. Kane epitomizes all this. Personally I loved It and thought it made so much sense. No lines, no standing around and all players getting tested despite their levels of competence. And most significantly the practice about the PLAYERS not the COACH.
So many stories like Zola and Gullit putting on practices at you know who and the technical application breaking down.
Now the Dutch are into chaos training. Check that out. Work with a top Dutch guy got me into it. Love that as well. 2 balls on the field stuff. It’s mad and fun.
All about creating a learning environment. [Post edited 24 Jan 13:41]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:41 - Jan 24 with 889 views | BrianMcCarthy |
https://www.easons.com/the-barcelona-legacy-jonathan-wilson-9781911600725
Forget the title and the blurb, this is a fine book on this topic.
I've read it a few times and it's excellent on the evolution of passing football from Queens Park to Ajax, on Cryuffian football taking over the World, on Mourinho's counter-revolution conquering all around him, and on Cryuffian football fighting back.
My only criticism of it is that it didn't give enough time to Klopp's gegenpress movement.
Not surprisingly, the main take from the book is that tactics have to be fluid and interchangeable. |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:45 - Jan 24 with 868 views | MrSheen |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:41 - Jan 24 by BrianMcCarthy |
https://www.easons.com/the-barcelona-legacy-jonathan-wilson-9781911600725
Forget the title and the blurb, this is a fine book on this topic.
I've read it a few times and it's excellent on the evolution of passing football from Queens Park to Ajax, on Cryuffian football taking over the World, on Mourinho's counter-revolution conquering all around him, and on Cryuffian football fighting back.
My only criticism of it is that it didn't give enough time to Klopp's gegenpress movement.
Not surprisingly, the main take from the book is that tactics have to be fluid and interchangeable. |
Think back 20 years and the tactical revelation was Rehhagel's Greece. Nine men back and a lone striker to fall over challenging for hopeful high balls to give them a chance of a free kick into the box. Copied everywhere because they won. What we have now might be repetitive, but its a huge upgrade. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:52 - Jan 24 with 844 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:45 - Jan 24 by MrSheen |
Think back 20 years and the tactical revelation was Rehhagel's Greece. Nine men back and a lone striker to fall over challenging for hopeful high balls to give them a chance of a free kick into the box. Copied everywhere because they won. What we have now might be repetitive, but its a huge upgrade. |
It mentions that as well, Sheener.
A big omission though is that it doesn't mention the Gerry Francis corners from one pre-season in the 90's where all our players would bunch by the penalty spot then break as our corner was taken. They'd scatter to the winds like dervishes and the oppo players would all manically follow them. And the ball would drop, and settle unmolested on the penalty spot. | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:03 - Jan 24 with 820 views | ngbqpr |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:41 - Jan 24 by BrianMcCarthy |
https://www.easons.com/the-barcelona-legacy-jonathan-wilson-9781911600725
Forget the title and the blurb, this is a fine book on this topic.
I've read it a few times and it's excellent on the evolution of passing football from Queens Park to Ajax, on Cryuffian football taking over the World, on Mourinho's counter-revolution conquering all around him, and on Cryuffian football fighting back.
My only criticism of it is that it didn't give enough time to Klopp's gegenpress movement.
Not surprisingly, the main take from the book is that tactics have to be fluid and interchangeable. |
Thanks for the reminder Bri, keep meaning to purchase this.
Re gegenpress...I remember when that first K-Pop hit 'Gangnam Style' was number one in the charts - think it was Leon Osman who spent a whole MOTD 2 talking about the 'gangnampress' - the others deliberately let him keep doing it, then took the pi$$ for months after | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:04 - Jan 24 with 811 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:03 - Jan 24 by ngbqpr |
Thanks for the reminder Bri, keep meaning to purchase this.
Re gegenpress...I remember when that first K-Pop hit 'Gangnam Style' was number one in the charts - think it was Leon Osman who spent a whole MOTD 2 talking about the 'gangnampress' - the others deliberately let him keep doing it, then took the pi$$ for months after |
Superb!!! | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:06 - Jan 24 with 806 views | Toast_R |
When Pep turned up at City, he should have quoted Roy Jay - "You'll all be doing it tomorrow!" |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:07 - Jan 24 with 806 views | ngbqpr |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 13:35 - Jan 24 by charmr |
Football got better with kids watching technically better foreign players playing in the premier league. Watched a kids game at Northwood a while back and thought it was brilliant.
FA also brought in a youth award in their coaching set up. Great book called ‘The future game’
Ideas not all their own but extremely thoughtful and brilliant presented. Another book -Game vision in soccer’ All designed to coach coaches from the academies to grassroots parents and players in game like scenarios.
Playiers playing under different types of pressure. Unopposed , passive and opposed while keeping your head up and scanning around you constantly. Kane epitomizes all this. Personally I loved It and thought it made so much sense. No lines, no standing around and all players getting tested despite their levels of competence. And most significantly the practice about the PLAYERS not the COACH.
So many stories like Zola and Gullit putting on practices at you know who and the technical application breaking down.
Now the Dutch are into chaos training. Check that out. Work with a top Dutch guy got me into it. Love that as well. 2 balls on the field stuff. It’s mad and fun.
All about creating a learning environment. [Post edited 24 Jan 13:41]
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Future Game was brilliant - completely changed not only how I coached kids, but also how I viewed pro games.
Sadly out of print atm and difficult to find(even just in chunks) online - I leant mine to another coach, can't now remember who, and have been looking to replace it for ages.
Sadly, post-covid, the FA seem to have run out of money for this sort of thing, and a lot of the good work done 2010-2019 supporting young coaches to help them support young players is getting watered down. | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:32 - Jan 24 with 768 views | golborne |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 01:41 - Jan 24 by numptydumpty |
Understand the drawing players out of position etc, but often it takes too long to see out a pass forward and sometimes instead of lumping it down the channels, teams get clumsy, are closed down, but seem worried they not playing the tactic, play a hospital ball and it ends up with great chance for the opposition.
Sure it's been proven by stats men that it's a successful tactic as its used by most teams... |
We must continue with this style of play for the long term. It's where the game has gone, is good to watch when it works (and it mostly does for us, cheer up folks). It just needs some variation and long term getting the right players in.
We have that variation in our play currently. Millwall went very high press, but with Dykes supporting the frontline with height and the only thing he's good at - control of the football when positioning allows, we have alternate outlets when teams press high. You also have Chair spinning off, Sinclair hitting channels etc. Future opponents now have an added considerations at the minute, cos we won't be an easy touch if they press high. And to be fair to the lads, a couple of oh dear moments in the 15 odd games, but I can't remember a goal against because of it. Dunne against Bournemouth was just not being strong enough, or having the awareness he was about to be hit from the side.
The first 8 games under Marti and we many optimists were thinking top half, a run of 5 games without a win and everybody started wetting the bed again. Millwall away was bad, really bad. Cardiff, too. Ipswich away was really good. The other 2 I believe were set piece issues. We won't finish in the bottom 6. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:50 - Jan 24 with 747 views | Loyalitat |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:56 - Jan 24 by hoops_legend |
It needs to be done at the right time and I would say that’s almost 90% of the time! The players are professionals and should be seeking our space that way. Then if a gap is created they can go for long ball
I hate long ball, my Sunday morning team can play that effectively- I don’t pay money to watch that! |
Totally agree.
This is most definitely the way to go. A quick comparison with Ainsworth's hoofball/treat the football as an alien object, to MC's 14 league games in charge, is all the evidence I need.
Ainsworth's 14 league games in charge this season: 26 goals conceded, 2 clean sheets.
MC's 14 league games to date: 13 goals conceded, 6 clean sheets. A measure of how much we have improved defensively in just 14 games, is that there are now about 10 teams who have conceded more goals than us in the league. Even Ipswich have only conceded 4 fewer.
Of course, we may not have the most adept players in certain positions to make it work more effectively, but for me, the greater emphasis on being possession-based again is working already and long may it continue. Forgoing possession, Gazza style, no longer works at this level of football which he should have acknowledged after his time at this level with Wycombe, when they only needed 44 points to survive in that particular season. [Post edited 24 Jan 16:01]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 15:03 - Jan 24 with 709 views | kensalriser |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 14:32 - Jan 24 by golborne |
We must continue with this style of play for the long term. It's where the game has gone, is good to watch when it works (and it mostly does for us, cheer up folks). It just needs some variation and long term getting the right players in.
We have that variation in our play currently. Millwall went very high press, but with Dykes supporting the frontline with height and the only thing he's good at - control of the football when positioning allows, we have alternate outlets when teams press high. You also have Chair spinning off, Sinclair hitting channels etc. Future opponents now have an added considerations at the minute, cos we won't be an easy touch if they press high. And to be fair to the lads, a couple of oh dear moments in the 15 odd games, but I can't remember a goal against because of it. Dunne against Bournemouth was just not being strong enough, or having the awareness he was about to be hit from the side.
The first 8 games under Marti and we many optimists were thinking top half, a run of 5 games without a win and everybody started wetting the bed again. Millwall away was bad, really bad. Cardiff, too. Ipswich away was really good. The other 2 I believe were set piece issues. We won't finish in the bottom 6. |
Not in the bottom 6? Wow. We'd better win Sunday. |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 15:55 - Jan 24 with 648 views | Hunterhoop |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 12:05 - Jan 24 by ngbqpr |
This!
As I've mentioned before, I have been heavily involved in coaching young (non-academy) players for over 20 years and have seen all the step changes at the FA in terms of how we are taught to coach (grass roots as well as 'elite').
The big change came around 2010 when the 'new generation' of coaches / coach tutors won the battle with the old guard at the FA and the 'England DNA' was born - tho as Dave says, Trevor Brooking was heavily involved (and why would you not want a genuinely two footed player who could successfully deliver every kind of pass known to man involved?).
This is what has produced what I call the Foden Generation (the u17 World Cup winners), with Bellingham being the latest star pupil. However there is a danger that academies are taking it too far, and as a friend of mine once wisely opined when we both had our sons in an academy together at the time, "the danger is we end up with a nation full of James Milners" - no disrespect to a fine player, but he's very much the type of technically adept all rounder that every team wants a couple of , but not a squad full.
On the wider point, I'd stress that the 'England DNA', while preaching the benefits of possession (in a nutshell - only the team in possession can score, so why give it away cheaply), does emphasise always looking to move the ball forward quickly / at the first opportunity - which is where your ball playing keeper comes in.
When it goes wrong? Either trying to get players who have not been schooled that way to play it (tho it can be learnt at an older age - best current example: Lewis Dunk); or forgetting the 'get it forward asap' bit - see Swanselona under numerous managers.
By the way Clive, I was listening to the Russell Martin interview on 5 Live the other night and couldn't help wondering if you were tuned in. It was pure David Brent - but I must admit that for the first time, I did just warm to him a little. |
Great post. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 19:47 - Jan 24 with 526 views | NorrisGreen |
Does my head when you watch a mediocre team trying to stroke it about at the back. It rapidly disintegrates and becomes fraught with danger so someone (invariably the goalie) ends up booting it up field to relieve the pressure. I grimace and think, blinking hell, could've done that 2 mins ago and saved a lot of grief!
PLUS... even if the opposition win the aerial ball into their territory, more often than not you win back possession at the second ball.
Some bright spark will soon decide when you win a corner it's safer to whack the ball 90yds back to your own keeper as opposed to risking losing possession by pinging ball towards your striker in their 6yd box. | | | |
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