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If you ignore the amount of middle aged blokes there were squeezed into those hideous pink kits, the rest of the ground looked like it was full of theatre goers. No-one stood, no-one sang, it appeared completely dead.
No matter how hideous it was in the abomination that is the Wall, I think it’ll be a case of sucking it up and dealing with it...for this season at least.
Those bright pink kits, dotted around the ground, mixed in with a load of bright yellow flourescent shiny yellow kits, just made me think there were loads of stewards in with the crowd wearing yellow coats. Welcome to.modern times. And I was there, I agree, the rest of the stadium (because there's no excuse to stand in seating sections now) just sat there in silence. The Northam went silent because there was nothing to cheer on the pitch and no entertainment from the banter between home and away fans. At times, it was eerily silent in the ground.
It was entirely predictable that the “wall” wouldn’t work. We simply don’t have 7k fans that want to stand and clap in unison all game, we also have always had small pockets of cultural differences between sections of the support, it’s why the layout of the dell lead to different pockets like under the east, the bike shed, the west stand benches and the Milton muppets
It’s also why st Mary’s worked before this, the northam was predominantly a younger stand, and more recently a social media stand. The itchen north was older and lot there moved to get away from people in the northam.
I didn’t make Saturday but a lot of the people that I know and have season tickets are already thinking about moving seats because they hated the “wall” so much, and they are/were all noisy f*ckers.
Personally I think the club have just played a blinder in using a small vocal minority to should about a mythical thing that would never happen so they can nullify a section of the ground they didn’t like.
It was entirely predictable that all those were against the wall and condemned it from the moment the concept started would be writing it off after one game to make their point. From what I could see from the Kingsland, all sections were involved in singing at some point, if not at the same time. That should improve. The noise as we attacked that end for 20 minutes after half-time was a big improvement on anything the previous Northam setup produced which had little if any impact on the games/players/refs. Saturday’s game was dire and there was nothing to get the crowd going, you cannot condemn it after one poor game. The influence of the away fans was undoubtedly diminished and that is something the players wanted to see; this was also part of the rationale for the change. It seems to me that those who don’t want the wall are the type who above all go to the games to ‘banter’ /goad away fans.
From my position in the Kingsland over the years, I found the noise generated in the old away the away end embarrassingly loud and influential and the combined efforts of the Itchen and Northam have always been drowned out. Those of you who lament the loss of the Itchen North should be aware that you could barely be heard on the opposite side. To say the previous setup worked would, I am certain, be disputed by the players. For once I commend the club for trying to do something to give us an end that might just make the difference on occasions in terms of affecting the decisions we get from officials, helping with momentum building when attacking that end, getting under the skin of opposition players etc. I find the negativity on this so bizarre- why on earth would people give up on it after one game? Whilst crowds don’t win games, players need the crowd with them and having 2 small sections either side of the away fans never helped with that. It appears to me that a large number who congregate next to the away fans are just as motivated by telling them that they live in a shithole as they are seeing Saints win. A question: would people be happier if the Chapel could have been the safe standing area with the away fans where they are now so they could continue the ‘banter?’
It was entirely predictable that all those were against the wall and condemned it from the moment the concept started would be writing it off after one game to make their point. From what I could see from the Kingsland, all sections were involved in singing at some point, if not at the same time. That should improve. The noise as we attacked that end for 20 minutes after half-time was a big improvement on anything the previous Northam setup produced which had little if any impact on the games/players/refs. Saturday’s game was dire and there was nothing to get the crowd going, you cannot condemn it after one poor game. The influence of the away fans was undoubtedly diminished and that is something the players wanted to see; this was also part of the rationale for the change. It seems to me that those who don’t want the wall are the type who above all go to the games to ‘banter’ /goad away fans.
From my position in the Kingsland over the years, I found the noise generated in the old away the away end embarrassingly loud and influential and the combined efforts of the Itchen and Northam have always been drowned out. Those of you who lament the loss of the Itchen North should be aware that you could barely be heard on the opposite side. To say the previous setup worked would, I am certain, be disputed by the players. For once I commend the club for trying to do something to give us an end that might just make the difference on occasions in terms of affecting the decisions we get from officials, helping with momentum building when attacking that end, getting under the skin of opposition players etc. I find the negativity on this so bizarre- why on earth would people give up on it after one game? Whilst crowds don’t win games, players need the crowd with them and having 2 small sections either side of the away fans never helped with that. It appears to me that a large number who congregate next to the away fans are just as motivated by telling them that they live in a shithole as they are seeing Saints win. A question: would people be happier if the Chapel could have been the safe standing area with the away fans where they are now so they could continue the ‘banter?’
This is the mistake most people seem to make, they think being against being in the northam is about sh*t BANTZ with the away fans.
This is wholey and completely wrong.
The songs about sh*tholes, the inbetweeners hand waving and gesturing, the clapping like demented seals, songs about pompey and stolen versions of every other clubs songs are exactly the reason me and many others didn’t want to be there.
What I would’ve liked would’ve been another safe standing section somewhere else in the ground that isn’t the northam. So I could avoid all the stuff I hate and still stand and have a laugh with my mates.
The itchen north block three provided that previously but that’s now gone, so I’m lumped in with a group of people I don’t like just so I can be allowed to stand.
It’s annoying as f*ck that this has happened, away games are bad enough for putting up with the red lodge and social media lot, at least I had a restbite at home games, but that’s no longer the case
It was entirely predictable that all those were against the wall and condemned it from the moment the concept started would be writing it off after one game to make their point. From what I could see from the Kingsland, all sections were involved in singing at some point, if not at the same time. That should improve. The noise as we attacked that end for 20 minutes after half-time was a big improvement on anything the previous Northam setup produced which had little if any impact on the games/players/refs. Saturday’s game was dire and there was nothing to get the crowd going, you cannot condemn it after one poor game. The influence of the away fans was undoubtedly diminished and that is something the players wanted to see; this was also part of the rationale for the change. It seems to me that those who don’t want the wall are the type who above all go to the games to ‘banter’ /goad away fans.
From my position in the Kingsland over the years, I found the noise generated in the old away the away end embarrassingly loud and influential and the combined efforts of the Itchen and Northam have always been drowned out. Those of you who lament the loss of the Itchen North should be aware that you could barely be heard on the opposite side. To say the previous setup worked would, I am certain, be disputed by the players. For once I commend the club for trying to do something to give us an end that might just make the difference on occasions in terms of affecting the decisions we get from officials, helping with momentum building when attacking that end, getting under the skin of opposition players etc. I find the negativity on this so bizarre- why on earth would people give up on it after one game? Whilst crowds don’t win games, players need the crowd with them and having 2 small sections either side of the away fans never helped with that. It appears to me that a large number who congregate next to the away fans are just as motivated by telling them that they live in a shithole as they are seeing Saints win. A question: would people be happier if the Chapel could have been the safe standing area with the away fans where they are now so they could continue the ‘banter?’
Excellent post. I agree, and as Matt Le Tissier said on the pitch, the setup should have been like this from the start.
Whatever changes the club makes, there will be a few old nimbies who moan about them. I wouldn't worry about it. You'll never change them.
This is the mistake most people seem to make, they think being against being in the northam is about sh*t BANTZ with the away fans.
This is wholey and completely wrong.
The songs about sh*tholes, the inbetweeners hand waving and gesturing, the clapping like demented seals, songs about pompey and stolen versions of every other clubs songs are exactly the reason me and many others didn’t want to be there.
What I would’ve liked would’ve been another safe standing section somewhere else in the ground that isn’t the northam. So I could avoid all the stuff I hate and still stand and have a laugh with my mates.
The itchen north block three provided that previously but that’s now gone, so I’m lumped in with a group of people I don’t like just so I can be allowed to stand.
It’s annoying as f*ck that this has happened, away games are bad enough for putting up with the red lodge and social media lot, at least I had a restbite at home games, but that’s no longer the case
If it’s not about bantz then why did the Itchen North establish itself in the corner adjacent to the away fans and why did the Itchen North spend most of the time facing the away fans and surging across? The notion that the closure of the Itchen North was a motivation for the change makes it sounds more significant than it was although I’m sure it was a pain in the @rse for the club to deal with. I read this forum a lot and you talk a lot of sense but on this point I can’t agree. You talk disparagingly about our fans a lot and I sympathise although it does come across as rather superior. But you seem to focus on your own enjoyment of the match day rather than what would make a difference to the atmosphere. It has been awful for years, the players notice it and something needed to be done. The point you miss I think is that whilst the Itchen North and Northam might’ve seemed decent inside them, the overall impact for the team and within the ground in general was negligible and attacking the Chapel never gave us any advantage in terms of helping with building some momentum, influencing refs etc. Surely you want your crowd more involved in the game rather than cultural pockets as you put it that have zero impact to what goes on on the field?
Going through some of these posts I would say a couple of things.
1. Firstly and surely, supporting your team is about getting behind it not just when they are playing well, but when they are struggling, anyone can make a noise when things are going well, the best supporters make the noise when its going badly.
2. The Red Wall was about leading horses to water so to speak, but having done that you can't make them sing, Frannies Tache has a good point, their was no real leadership in the Northam, what is needed is a central group in the middle making the noise and keeping making the noise, you can ridicule the Palace ultras but they changed Selhurst Park from a morgue to one of the best atmospheres in the Premier League, the Red Wall didn't have this, it seemed to have the corner with the Kingsland, probably the originals there for the past years and then the other half of the stand was those who have moved their this season
Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime
Going through some of these posts I would say a couple of things.
1. Firstly and surely, supporting your team is about getting behind it not just when they are playing well, but when they are struggling, anyone can make a noise when things are going well, the best supporters make the noise when its going badly.
2. The Red Wall was about leading horses to water so to speak, but having done that you can't make them sing, Frannies Tache has a good point, their was no real leadership in the Northam, what is needed is a central group in the middle making the noise and keeping making the noise, you can ridicule the Palace ultras but they changed Selhurst Park from a morgue to one of the best atmospheres in the Premier League, the Red Wall didn't have this, it seemed to have the corner with the Kingsland, probably the originals there for the past years and then the other half of the stand was those who have moved their this season
Going through some of these posts I would say a couple of things.
1. Firstly and surely, supporting your team is about getting behind it not just when they are playing well, but when they are struggling, anyone can make a noise when things are going well, the best supporters make the noise when its going badly.
2. The Red Wall was about leading horses to water so to speak, but having done that you can't make them sing, Frannies Tache has a good point, their was no real leadership in the Northam, what is needed is a central group in the middle making the noise and keeping making the noise, you can ridicule the Palace ultras but they changed Selhurst Park from a morgue to one of the best atmospheres in the Premier League, the Red Wall didn't have this, it seemed to have the corner with the Kingsland, probably the originals there for the past years and then the other half of the stand was those who have moved their this season
Fair points Nick but in the absence of any fan group taking leadership I think the club were right to take the lead. This has been a talking point for years with logistical reason trawled out for why it couldn’t be done. The club have then made an effort to do something positive and it’s derided by some because ‘we’ve never had a proper home end’ and therefore status quo must persist. Its a shame we have no fan group to initiate changes as in the pre St Mary’s days and I have no problem with what Palace fans did- some might say it’s cringy but they’ve since established a reputation for their vociferous support. I always got the sense you were against it Nick but let’s at least give it a chance. We’ve got it, it’s not going away and I reckon that if the players actually turn up the volume from it could be impressive.
Going through some of these posts I would say a couple of things.
1. Firstly and surely, supporting your team is about getting behind it not just when they are playing well, but when they are struggling, anyone can make a noise when things are going well, the best supporters make the noise when its going badly.
2. The Red Wall was about leading horses to water so to speak, but having done that you can't make them sing, Frannies Tache has a good point, their was no real leadership in the Northam, what is needed is a central group in the middle making the noise and keeping making the noise, you can ridicule the Palace ultras but they changed Selhurst Park from a morgue to one of the best atmospheres in the Premier League, the Red Wall didn't have this, it seemed to have the corner with the Kingsland, probably the originals there for the past years and then the other half of the stand was those who have moved their this season
1. All you could hear after Forest scored was the Saints fans singing OWTS. If Liverpool or any other team had just had our 2 opening results, their fans wouldn't have reacted any better.
2. You're right about the Palace ultras. Their Club actually moved fans from immediately behind the goal so they could put their ultras there. Before that they were in the corner of that end. Managers and players always want their noisiest fans behind a goal, where they can have the most influence.
Fair points Nick but in the absence of any fan group taking leadership I think the club were right to take the lead. This has been a talking point for years with logistical reason trawled out for why it couldn’t be done. The club have then made an effort to do something positive and it’s derided by some because ‘we’ve never had a proper home end’ and therefore status quo must persist. Its a shame we have no fan group to initiate changes as in the pre St Mary’s days and I have no problem with what Palace fans did- some might say it’s cringy but they’ve since established a reputation for their vociferous support. I always got the sense you were against it Nick but let’s at least give it a chance. We’ve got it, it’s not going away and I reckon that if the players actually turn up the volume from it could be impressive.
I was against it for the logistical reasons and they are still pertinent as it was chaos after the game, behind the Northam & the Kingsland and the footbridge was still congested 15-20 minutes after thegame.
It is good that the club have done a positive thing in terms of the the end, but as I said earlier, you can create something, but it needs the people to fill it and more importantly to make some noise.
Dirk made the point that there were a few chants of OWTS after Forest scored, but soon after the kick off it was not a lot different from last season, and after 90 minutes was up the Northam and indeed the ground was emptying.
I agree give it a chance, but if it is to work, it is not about people like me sat in other stands giving it a chance, it is about those in the Northam getting behind the team and staying behind it.
Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime
I was against it for the logistical reasons and they are still pertinent as it was chaos after the game, behind the Northam & the Kingsland and the footbridge was still congested 15-20 minutes after thegame.
It is good that the club have done a positive thing in terms of the the end, but as I said earlier, you can create something, but it needs the people to fill it and more importantly to make some noise.
Dirk made the point that there were a few chants of OWTS after Forest scored, but soon after the kick off it was not a lot different from last season, and after 90 minutes was up the Northam and indeed the ground was emptying.
I agree give it a chance, but if it is to work, it is not about people like me sat in other stands giving it a chance, it is about those in the Northam getting behind the team and staying behind it.
I come back to the reality that all football fans quickly get fed up with seeing their team losing. The supposedly most passionate fans of teams like Newcastle, Sunderland and Everton turn vitriolic under similar circumstances.
The only real exceptions to that are ultras. In Italy, especially, they make a point of singing just as loudly when they are losing as when they are winning. They never stop singing, but I think the singing and the reputation of their ultra group is much more important to them than the football. Some of them even have their backs turned to the game for 90 minutes. Of course, after the game they might make a few death threats to their owners.
This is the mistake most people seem to make, they think being against being in the northam is about sh*t BANTZ with the away fans.
This is wholey and completely wrong.
The songs about sh*tholes, the inbetweeners hand waving and gesturing, the clapping like demented seals, songs about pompey and stolen versions of every other clubs songs are exactly the reason me and many others didn’t want to be there.
What I would’ve liked would’ve been another safe standing section somewhere else in the ground that isn’t the northam. So I could avoid all the stuff I hate and still stand and have a laugh with my mates.
The itchen north block three provided that previously but that’s now gone, so I’m lumped in with a group of people I don’t like just so I can be allowed to stand.
It’s annoying as f*ck that this has happened, away games are bad enough for putting up with the red lodge and social media lot, at least I had a restbite at home games, but that’s no longer the case
This is wholly my position. I liked the Itchen, not for its banter but for its minimal amount of fans, creating a low-key atmosphere with a varied amount of songs.
If I wanted to be part of a large group of fans, who bang backboards and only sing generic songs, I would’ve moved to the Northam years ago. There is no choice now. Whilst I fully accept the Northam will be louder and more beneficial for the players, I wish they’d kept a seperate smaller section somewhere (along with the Northam), as overall it’s a more enjoyable experience.
Going through some of these posts I would say a couple of things.
1. Firstly and surely, supporting your team is about getting behind it not just when they are playing well, but when they are struggling, anyone can make a noise when things are going well, the best supporters make the noise when its going badly.
2. The Red Wall was about leading horses to water so to speak, but having done that you can't make them sing, Frannies Tache has a good point, their was no real leadership in the Northam, what is needed is a central group in the middle making the noise and keeping making the noise, you can ridicule the Palace ultras but they changed Selhurst Park from a morgue to one of the best atmospheres in the Premier League, the Red Wall didn't have this, it seemed to have the corner with the Kingsland, probably the originals there for the past years and then the other half of the stand was those who have moved their this season
Maybe we need somebody down the front to turn their back on the game and orchestrate the fans, as you often see abroad.
After Saturday, there may be a few applicants for this role......
If it’s not about bantz then why did the Itchen North establish itself in the corner adjacent to the away fans and why did the Itchen North spend most of the time facing the away fans and surging across? The notion that the closure of the Itchen North was a motivation for the change makes it sounds more significant than it was although I’m sure it was a pain in the @rse for the club to deal with. I read this forum a lot and you talk a lot of sense but on this point I can’t agree. You talk disparagingly about our fans a lot and I sympathise although it does come across as rather superior. But you seem to focus on your own enjoyment of the match day rather than what would make a difference to the atmosphere. It has been awful for years, the players notice it and something needed to be done. The point you miss I think is that whilst the Itchen North and Northam might’ve seemed decent inside them, the overall impact for the team and within the ground in general was negligible and attacking the Chapel never gave us any advantage in terms of helping with building some momentum, influencing refs etc. Surely you want your crowd more involved in the game rather than cultural pockets as you put it that have zero impact to what goes on on the field?
Taking this points one by one as it'll be easier to do if you don't mind?
"If it’s not about bantz then why did the Itchen North establish itself in the corner adjacent to the away fans and why did the Itchen North spend most of the time facing the away fans and surging across"
You are entirely right that's what ended up happening, it was very much a post covid re-start that saw that happen in block 1/2 and actually the main reason we all moved out of block 1/2 and into block 3 instead.
Ironically that happened because a load of people moved from the Northam, completely misunderstanding the culture of the Itchen North and just turning it into the Northam lite, which was equally unbearable.
"The notion that the closure of the Itchen North was a motivation for the change makes it sounds more significant than it was although I’m sure it was a pain in the @rse for the club to deal with"
That one wasn't a suggestion, that was something i know to be fact, in fact i also know the club internally referred to the Itchen North as "a necessary evil" (their words not mine) and genuinely didn't like it as section of the ground.
"But you seem to focus on your own enjoyment of the match day rather than what would make a difference to the atmosphere."
This is absolutely a fair point, i do, but that's because the choice of my experience has been removed from me. I want to stand, i can't stand anywhere but the Northam, therefore i have no choice.
I also don't equate songs to atmosphere, back at the dell some of the best atmospheres' and support didn't come from people singing, it came from "roar" that ran down the ground as players got forward, and the old boys stamping their feets in the upper tiers.
I'd much rather that than ANOTHER version of Allez Allez Allez, or a song about pompey.
"You talk disparagingly about our fans a lot and I sympathise although it does come across as rather superior. "
Again fair point, though i'm not sure it's superior, just that i'm older and find things a bit cringeworthy, as i'm sure older fans did for stuff i did when i was a nipper (though to be fair back then you'd get a clip round the back of the head on the terrace if the older boys thought you were being a din).
Fundamentally my complaint isn't "the wall" exists, it's not even that the away fans have moved. It's that "the wall" is the only choice.
The club dropped a boll*ck there in my opinion, they assumed that everyone who wants to stand and sing wants to stand with the same people and sing the same songs. That's simply not true. And they'd have fixed it easily by having say the back 5 rows of the chapel also as safe standing.
Taking this points one by one as it'll be easier to do if you don't mind?
"If it’s not about bantz then why did the Itchen North establish itself in the corner adjacent to the away fans and why did the Itchen North spend most of the time facing the away fans and surging across"
You are entirely right that's what ended up happening, it was very much a post covid re-start that saw that happen in block 1/2 and actually the main reason we all moved out of block 1/2 and into block 3 instead.
Ironically that happened because a load of people moved from the Northam, completely misunderstanding the culture of the Itchen North and just turning it into the Northam lite, which was equally unbearable.
"The notion that the closure of the Itchen North was a motivation for the change makes it sounds more significant than it was although I’m sure it was a pain in the @rse for the club to deal with"
That one wasn't a suggestion, that was something i know to be fact, in fact i also know the club internally referred to the Itchen North as "a necessary evil" (their words not mine) and genuinely didn't like it as section of the ground.
"But you seem to focus on your own enjoyment of the match day rather than what would make a difference to the atmosphere."
This is absolutely a fair point, i do, but that's because the choice of my experience has been removed from me. I want to stand, i can't stand anywhere but the Northam, therefore i have no choice.
I also don't equate songs to atmosphere, back at the dell some of the best atmospheres' and support didn't come from people singing, it came from "roar" that ran down the ground as players got forward, and the old boys stamping their feets in the upper tiers.
I'd much rather that than ANOTHER version of Allez Allez Allez, or a song about pompey.
"You talk disparagingly about our fans a lot and I sympathise although it does come across as rather superior. "
Again fair point, though i'm not sure it's superior, just that i'm older and find things a bit cringeworthy, as i'm sure older fans did for stuff i did when i was a nipper (though to be fair back then you'd get a clip round the back of the head on the terrace if the older boys thought you were being a din).
Fundamentally my complaint isn't "the wall" exists, it's not even that the away fans have moved. It's that "the wall" is the only choice.
The club dropped a boll*ck there in my opinion, they assumed that everyone who wants to stand and sing wants to stand with the same people and sing the same songs. That's simply not true. And they'd have fixed it easily by having say the back 5 rows of the chapel also as safe standing.
Thank you for your fair and balanced response FT. I didn’t know that the club viewed the Itchen North as a necessary evil but I wouldn’t have thought that was the primary motivation for the change. Regarding a separate standing area in the ground, I’m not sure where that could be? Ultimately I’ve become bored and frustrated by the poor atmosphere in the ground and I don’t know else you could try to improve it. I agree that generating atmosphere is far from just singing and I just wish we had more passion in our crowd generally. I’m sure the crowd has become significantly more passive in the years since we moved to SMS, as someone said we have a theatre audience in most parts of the ground. I remember some raucous atmospheres generated in SMS in the early days, even in the Kingsland but now when I shout people will sometimes look at me in disdain. So many people buy the merch, tell everyone that they are super fans but become mute once they step inside. I felt an initiative to gather those who will actually open their mouths is worth a go. Perhaps it won’t work but I thought the ‘I told you it wouldn’t work’ narrative to be unnecessary after 1 poor match. I felt there was triumphalism in that. Let’s review it as the season goes on. I am probably of a similar age to you and I do despair of the same old Pompey/sh@thole/library etc etc songs but I don’t know what can be done without an influential leadership group within the support that can change the culture. Like you say I’m sure some of the older folk found us a pain in the @rse in the 90s but it’s definitely plummeted to new depths.
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