| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:36 - Apr 7 with 1211 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 14:40 - Apr 7 by DJack |
S, are you saying that the quote is from the comments section in the Times.  |
It appears to be a letter from a doctor who works in the relevant hospital stating facts as opposed to an opinion column expressing a, well, an opinion. |  |
|  |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:40 - Apr 7 with 1200 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:36 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
It appears to be a letter from a doctor who works in the relevant hospital stating facts as opposed to an opinion column expressing a, well, an opinion. |
Thank you, is there a link that I can utilise? |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:41 - Apr 7 with 1196 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:40 - Apr 7 by DJack |
Thank you, is there a link that I can utilise? |
I doubt it, you have to pay to read The Times online. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:45 - Apr 7 with 1186 views | exiledclaseboy |
This is from the aforementioned offGuardian twitter of which I’d never heard before today. But the pic is the actual letter in the actual paper copy of The Times. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:51 - Apr 7 with 1168 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:45 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
This is from the aforementioned offGuardian twitter of which I’d never heard before today. But the pic is the actual letter in the actual paper copy of The Times. |
Excuse my ignorance but they've published a letter received in reply to an article it seems. How much verification of source do they do, a quick phone call to the telephone number listed in the letter or what? | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:54 - Apr 7 with 1162 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:35 - Apr 7 by Brynmill_Jack |
Waiting for evidence that Reuters is biased? Are you a schoolteacher or something?
They certainly were biased in the recent Brazilian election. Can't be botered to find a link but it's out there somewhere. Knock yourself out! |
Putting aside your, so far unverified claim about the doctor you have added the square root of naff all to this thread...unless we include hysteria and snidey remarks. I would politely suggest that you knock yourself out as you are an embarrassment. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:07 - Apr 7 with 1124 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:05 - Apr 7 by DJack |
No, it was a question to ascertain if it was possible as I was unaware...as I stated. |
You and the tinfoil brigade aye. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:07 - Apr 7 with 1115 views | Shaky |
Expert opinion:
+++++++++++++++++++++
Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?
By Dan Kaszeta
politics.co.uk, Friday, 6 April 2018 12:12 PM 13
An interesting question has been raised. If nerve agents -and in particular the so-called Novichok agents - are so deadly, why didn’t Sergie and Yulia Skripal die immediately? Instead, as countless internet conspiracy theorists have pointed out, both the daughter and father appear to be out of critical condition. This is a valid question that deserves an answer.
First, it is important to get the terminology correct. 'Nerve agents' are chemical substances that interfere with the chemistry of the human nervous system by binding with an enzyme called acetylcholinesterase. By this definition, a number of chemical warfare agents and a number of pesticides are included in the family of compounds known as nerve agents.
Nerve agents are not toxins by the technical definition. Toxins are poisons produced from animal, plant, or microbial sources. Snake venom is a toxin. Sarin and VX and Novichoks, being products of wholly man-made origin, are not toxins. The term 'nerve gas' is not useful, either, as the nerve agents are all liquids or solids at room temperature.
The term 'military grade' is also completely pointless. Some militaries made very high grade nerve agents during the Cold War, such as the USSR and the United States. However, militaries have made and used much lower-grade nerve agents, such as the very poor quality Sarin that Saddam Hussein made and used against both civilian and military targets in the Iran-Iraq war. As militaries have had both the highest and lowest grade of nerve agent, the term 'military grade' is redundant. It is literally comparable to saying 'catering-grade grape product' to refer to both the highest grade Bordeaux and grape juice.
Nerve agents only really work quickly when they are inhaled. The mechanism of action in the Skripal case appears to be dermal absorption — the agent got into their systems through the skin. This works slowly. Signs and symptoms progress from localised ones at the site of exposure to central ones over a period of hours. In a cold war-era study with goats and the nerve agent Soman, death took up to 48 hours after exposure to the shaved skin. It's not exactly fast.
Second, if something happened to reduce the intended dose - for instance if the person opening a door handle was wearing gloves - then a possibly quite lethal dose could have been mitigated to a lower one.
In addition, we must also allow for human factors. Did one of the Skripals say: "What is this muck on my hands? I'm going to wash up". That would have initiated a self-decontamination effort. Soap and water is actually quite good at decontaminating nerve agents, as numerous studies have indicated. All of the organophosphate nerve agents degrade in the presence of water, through a mechanism called hydrolysis. So, did the door handle in question get wet? Salisbury is not known for an arid climate.
Practical toxicity in the field differs greatly from the theoretical toxicity of poisons in laboratory conditions. Every major nerve agent incident (Tokyo, Halabja, Ghouta, Khan Sheikhoun etc) has had more people injured than killed. The Tokyo incident killed 12 people, but there were nearly 70 with major exposure who survived and nearly a thousand with minor to moderate exposure.
The most important thing to consider, however, is the nature of the lethality and toxicity estimates for nerve agents. All of these toxicological statistics are derived from studies wherein the targets (almost always lab animals) did not receive decontamination or treatment for their injuries. Indeed, if you were trying to experimentally determine figures for lethality, administering antidote therapy or decontamination would warp the results and be bad science. Statements that 'substance X is five times more lethal than Y' are only valid in the absence of medical treatment.
The bottom line is that nerve agents are killers in the absence of serious medical care, but their track record as killers is actually quite poor if some medical care is given. There are a number of cases where people were exposed to very high doses of nerve agents and survived with aggressive medical interventions.
It is clear that the Skripals and the police constable received serious and relevant medical interventions. The phrase 'no antidote to Novichoks' has been used and taken seriously out of context here. It's true that there’s no specific antidote to the Novichoks in the sense of an antitoxin or antivenin as a direct attack on the offending chemical. But we can tackle the harm they do.
All of the nerve agents, old and new, operate on the same biochemical principles and cause the same mechanism of injury by provoking a 'cholinergic crisis'. The direct therapy for this crisis is the same regardless of dose and regardless of the agent causing it. The most important drug is atropine. It directly works as an antagonist for the excess acetylcholine in the nervous system. Or, simply, it knocks down the build-up of chemicals that is making the victim sick. Atropine is not exotic or rare. It is routinely stocked in ambulances and hospitals for a number of uses, including overdoses and cardiac situations.
In the case of Salisbury, atropine is specifically referenced in the hospital trust's publically-available emergency plans. There’s nothing odd or strange about atropine being available in Salisbury. NHS ambulance services and hospital A&E services have been worrying about chemical terrorism for decades now. Excellent training is being given and numerous exercises have been held. People should be happy, not shocked, that training and protocols kicked in.
Other medical measures are important. There is a category of drugs called oximes. Their usefulness varies from nerve agent to nerve agent, and varies with the time between exposure and administration of drugs. Their usefulness in Novichok situations is not well established. Anticonvulsants like diazepam are useful as well, and would be relevant in Novichok poisoning. Supportive care to maintain open airways, assist breathing (if necessary, using ventilators) and maintain circulation are critical to survival, but are basic skills for any serious hospital.
Having worked in chemical warfare defence for 27 years, the survival of Sergei and Yulia Skripal are no surprise to me.
Dan Kaszeta is a London-based consultant in security and chemical defence. He has 27 years experience in the field, with roles in the US Army, the White House, the US Secret Service, and private industry. You can follow him on Twitter here.The opinions in politics.co.uk's Comment and Analysis section are those of the author and are no reflection of the views of the website or its owners.
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-th |  |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:08 - Apr 7 with 1107 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 17:54 - Apr 7 by DJack |
Putting aside your, so far unverified claim about the doctor you have added the square root of naff all to this thread...unless we include hysteria and snidey remarks. I would politely suggest that you knock yourself out as you are an embarrassment. |
Isn't a letter to the times from that doctor enough for you? The times are now Tin foilers aas well??? Go and have a lie down mun |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:12 - Apr 7 with 1090 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:07 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
You and the tinfoil brigade aye. |
Which scenario do you consider to be likely .
1. A British false flag scenario to piss of Russia and misdirect the public from Brexit
2. Another incidence of a Soviet citizen being attacked abroad with an exotic weapon.
3. {Insert one of your own opinion here} | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:15 - Apr 7 with 1081 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:12 - Apr 7 by DJack |
Which scenario do you consider to be likely .
1. A British false flag scenario to piss of Russia and misdirect the public from Brexit
2. Another incidence of a Soviet citizen being attacked abroad with an exotic weapon.
3. {Insert one of your own opinion here} |
Two is clearly most likely but as I’ve saud many times in this thread and others, nothing would or will surprise me with this or anything else these days. We live in very strange times. Amd you can’t deny that there are some holes in the official narrative but that’s probably more to do with the incompetence of those running the U.K. at the moment than anything particularly sinister. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:15 - Apr 7 with 1081 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:08 - Apr 7 by Brynmill_Jack |
Isn't a letter to the times from that doctor enough for you? The times are now Tin foilers aas well??? Go and have a lie down mun |
Yes, letters to the Times, you are the first cuckoo of spring and I claim my £5.
If I was able to verify it and it's full context then I would accept it - there'd be no farking choice. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:16 - Apr 7 with 1076 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:15 - Apr 7 by DJack |
Yes, letters to the Times, you are the first cuckoo of spring and I claim my £5.
If I was able to verify it and it's full context then I would accept it - there'd be no farking choice. |
So you do doubt the the veracity of the letter and the identity of the claimed author?
Tinfoil. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:19 - Apr 7 with 1073 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:15 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
Two is clearly most likely but as I’ve saud many times in this thread and others, nothing would or will surprise me with this or anything else these days. We live in very strange times. Amd you can’t deny that there are some holes in the official narrative but that’s probably more to do with the incompetence of those running the U.K. at the moment than anything particularly sinister. |
Thank you.
I'm not as measured as yourself so the hysterical false flaggers get under my skin...Even more so when they "ridicule" things without having a slightest idea...whilst I actually do have a TINY modicum of understanding on the subject. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:21 - Apr 7 with 1068 views | Bobby_Fischer |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 13:44 - Apr 5 by londonlisa2001 |
Ah, now I understand.
One of the people that we poisoned in order to blame the Russians has recovered and despite us manufacturing evidence to 28 other countries we are prepared to give her a mobile phone and allow her to call Russia.
Her cousin, (who the Russian Ambassador keeps describing as her sister but that's a different matter), despite receiving a call out of the blue from an unknown number, has, lucky lucky, recorded the whole conversation so is able to pass it to the Russian media.
And when calling her sister / cousin, the woman says 'this is Yulia Skripal' rather than just hello, or it's Yulia. (She stops short of spelling her name for the listening Russian media).
Thus causing a huge diplomatic upset that could have been prevented by just not giving her a phone?
And you just blindly believe this rather than wondering what on earth is going on? |
Christ that post is enlightening to who you really are. Is Deloitte in London just a franchise? |  |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:22 - Apr 7 with 1065 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:16 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
So you do doubt the the veracity of the letter and the identity of the claimed author?
Tinfoil. |
No, I was just using the same rubbish "argument style" as Brynnie has been using throughout. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:25 - Apr 7 with 1059 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:21 - Apr 7 by Bobby_Fischer |
Christ that post is enlightening to who you really are. Is Deloitte in London just a franchise? |
Firstly I don't know what Deloitte has to do with anything (it's not like I work there) and secondly I'm expressing cynicism over a clearly ridiculous phone call.
Quite why that shows what I really am other than more rational than some I don't know.
You'll have to enlighten me. |  | | |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:28 - Apr 7 with 1048 views | Wingstandwood |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:12 - Apr 7 by DJack |
Which scenario do you consider to be likely .
1. A British false flag scenario to piss of Russia and misdirect the public from Brexit
2. Another incidence of a Soviet citizen being attacked abroad with an exotic weapon.
3. {Insert one of your own opinion here} |
I go for No2! The only other (albeit extremely unlikely) logical explanation IMO is a rogue element within Russian spy intelligence going freelance (without own governments or superiors order(s)) to exact a revenge attack on a former colleague/fellow countryman.
The false flag stuff to create "a good day to bury bad news" diversion would only distract for a limited time period. The Brexit thingy will drag on and still be in the news for a few years to come. They'll have to do away with a Russian spy or two on a monthly basis to counteract that! |  |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:38 - Apr 7 with 1026 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:25 - Apr 7 by londonlisa2001 |
Firstly I don't know what Deloitte has to do with anything (it's not like I work there) and secondly I'm expressing cynicism over a clearly ridiculous phone call.
Quite why that shows what I really am other than more rational than some I don't know.
You'll have to enlighten me. |
I heard you sit on the board of MI5. | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:41 - Apr 7 with 1020 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:38 - Apr 7 by exiledclaseboy |
I heard you sit on the board of MI5. |
MFI mun... | | | |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:45 - Apr 7 with 1016 views | Bobby_Fischer |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:41 - Apr 7 by londonlisa2001 |
MFI mun... |
You know my brother? | |
| |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:48 - Apr 7 with 1009 views | DJack |
| Russia demands to see daughter of spy on 18:41 - Apr 7 by londonlisa2001 |
MFI mun... |
He meant to say
"I heard you sit on the board, Miss! | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
